Pet underpopulation Problem
- Thread starter FrenchKissed
- Start date
"Litters of puppies in shelters, more so than adolescents, adults or singleton puppies, are markers of true pet overpopulation. Shelters with many whole litters or nursing mothers with puppies are most likely experiencing true overpopulation in their community. Shelters with mostly adolescent or adult dogs, or with the occasional single puppy, are probably experiencing more of a surplus of problem dogs - dogs who become unwanted due to difficulties with their temperament or behavior." - Sue Sternberg
I guess this whole discussion kind of depends on your definition of "over population". Again, in my area, there is not an over population problem. There are enough homes looking for dogs to account for all the homeless dogs (non-imported). But as several people have mentioned, THOSE are not the dogs people are looking for. What we have is what is mentioned in the above quote - a surplus of dogs that are unwanted due to breed/temperament/issues. It's not really overpopulation, because if we have 10 local dogs that aren't getting placed, and you bring in 10 imports that immediately find homes...those homes WERE available to the other dogs. They just weren't wanted.
I don't deny that parts of the country (maybe even a majority of the country?) have over-population problems. I do not believe that's what we have here in suburbia, North East.
I guess this whole discussion kind of depends on your definition of "over population". Again, in my area, there is not an over population problem. There are enough homes looking for dogs to account for all the homeless dogs (non-imported). But as several people have mentioned, THOSE are not the dogs people are looking for. What we have is what is mentioned in the above quote - a surplus of dogs that are unwanted due to breed/temperament/issues. It's not really overpopulation, because if we have 10 local dogs that aren't getting placed, and you bring in 10 imports that immediately find homes...those homes WERE available to the other dogs. They just weren't wanted.
I don't deny that parts of the country (maybe even a majority of the country?) have over-population problems. I do not believe that's what we have here in suburbia, North East.
As of yesterday, our shelter has 16 litters of puppies, 5 pregnant dogs, and various single puppies. We have many lab mixes and hounds, but we also have a great pyrenees, a few rottweilers, several chihuahuas, poodles, and designer mixes. But nobody looks at us for a dog because they're all under the belief that they're aggressive and sick.
And I just did a search on Petfinder for Vermont, I only checked the numbers of the public shelters in each county, but they seem to have an abundance of dogs available for adoption (approx. 200), and not just pit mixes either. I saw plenty of WFD's and small breeds (plus a strange amount of hounds, a breed you wouldn't ordinarily see in the north, which tells me a lot). Then there are the puppy peddler groups who use the southern railroad to bring up puppies, not that I have a huge problem with them, but when they don't do pediatric speutering, they're only contributing to the problem.
Once again, until the shelters are empty in that area, don't truck in more. And if it's a case of supply and demand, then education must be started to show people that young mixed breed dogs can make wonderful pets too.
Once again, until the shelters are empty in that area, don't truck in more. And if it's a case of supply and demand, then education must be started to show people that young mixed breed dogs can make wonderful pets too.
I just want to say - this is not the first time I saw the word "speutering," and I think it's frankly dumb. Technically, desexing a male is called "castrating," desexing a female is called "ovariohysterectomy," or something like that. Desexing any dog, male or female, is called "neutering." There's no reason to put an "sp" in front of the word.
Thank you for indulging in my soapbox rant.
Thank you for indulging in my soapbox rant.
Just wondering why hounds wouldn't be in the north? Here I am in Canada (which I assume is north) and we have an over abundance of hounds. Usually failed hunting dogs, or hunting dogs that kept hunting and the owners didn't care enough to find them again. We have lots of beagle things and labbish things in our shelters.
"And I just did a search on Petfinder for Vermont, I only checked the numbers of the public shelters in each county, but they seem to have an abundance of dogs available for adoption (approx. 200), and not just pit mixes either. I saw plenty of WFD's and small breeds (plus a strange amount of hounds, a breed you wouldn't ordinarily see in the north, which tells me a lot)."
I'm not sure what point you are trying to make. Are you acknowledging that those hounds are southern transports (I'm sure most are), or assuming that every dog listed in Vermont is local? I pulled up the rescue I help with's page, and of the 19 dogs, 3 are local, the rest are from southern transports. So, should they only offer those three dogs until there are none available? That JRT isn't going anywhere anytime soon. And my dog Meg should have been dropped in a hole and shot (the way dogs were "euthanized" until not too long ago in the shelter she came from in WV)? I'd still be waiting for a dog, because of the local ones that have come in over the past 2 years, not a single one would have filled my needs. I can think of four transports, including the one I took, that I would have taken. To me, a dog saved is a dog saved. Whether it came to me from West Virginia, New York, the other end of the world, or running loose in my town.
As I said in my first post, I'm NOT arguing that there isn't a pet overpopulation problem in the country; I'm arguing that there are PARTS of the country that do not have enough adoptable dogs available, and that there is absolutely nothing wrong with bringing dogs who would otherwise die from overcrowded areas to areas that have homes available.
I'm not sure what point you are trying to make. Are you acknowledging that those hounds are southern transports (I'm sure most are), or assuming that every dog listed in Vermont is local? I pulled up the rescue I help with's page, and of the 19 dogs, 3 are local, the rest are from southern transports. So, should they only offer those three dogs until there are none available? That JRT isn't going anywhere anytime soon. And my dog Meg should have been dropped in a hole and shot (the way dogs were "euthanized" until not too long ago in the shelter she came from in WV)? I'd still be waiting for a dog, because of the local ones that have come in over the past 2 years, not a single one would have filled my needs. I can think of four transports, including the one I took, that I would have taken. To me, a dog saved is a dog saved. Whether it came to me from West Virginia, New York, the other end of the world, or running loose in my town.
As I said in my first post, I'm NOT arguing that there isn't a pet overpopulation problem in the country; I'm arguing that there are PARTS of the country that do not have enough adoptable dogs available, and that there is absolutely nothing wrong with bringing dogs who would otherwise die from overcrowded areas to areas that have homes available.
And IMO, this brings up the old "ugly" discussion that no one wants to participate it because they find it cruel and evil and everything else: culling.
Most hunters I know cull their stock (those that don't hunt, etc. as it's all about producing dogs that do the job the best). Many of the APBT owner/breeders I know and I'm friends with cull as well. Rarely do they sell dogs as that's not their "market." It's about improving what you've got, not making a buck. In fact, most of the working dog owners I know and associate with cull thus they aren't even an issue when it comes to the dogs in shelters as they aren't responsible for it. Bybs, peddlers, peopel too **** lazy to train a dog, etc. are the reason why so many animals are in shelters. And this brings up the next heated topic: euthanasia. I personally find it more apalling that shelters & rescues would keep dogs in cages for months, and sometimes even years, on end in the hopes of finding a home that will never exist. Just because a dog is breathing doesn't mean it's living. I find humane euthanasia a much better alternative than life with no interaction being lived out in a concrete cell.
But hey, it's only my opinion.
Most hunters I know cull their stock (those that don't hunt, etc. as it's all about producing dogs that do the job the best). Many of the APBT owner/breeders I know and I'm friends with cull as well. Rarely do they sell dogs as that's not their "market." It's about improving what you've got, not making a buck. In fact, most of the working dog owners I know and associate with cull thus they aren't even an issue when it comes to the dogs in shelters as they aren't responsible for it. Bybs, peddlers, peopel too **** lazy to train a dog, etc. are the reason why so many animals are in shelters. And this brings up the next heated topic: euthanasia. I personally find it more apalling that shelters & rescues would keep dogs in cages for months, and sometimes even years, on end in the hopes of finding a home that will never exist. Just because a dog is breathing doesn't mean it's living. I find humane euthanasia a much better alternative than life with no interaction being lived out in a concrete cell.
But hey, it's only my opinion.
If they do it without pain or stress to the dog, then so be it. If they are healthy, well-bred dogs and there are people who want them, I would strongly favor rehoming, though. I'm at the point where I don't give a drat if you euth a dog so long as it's done kindly. Better than dumping it in a shelter, or sentencing it to a life of crappy owners or breeding litter after litter.
Why are there no hounds "in the north?" you ask.
Housing density and lack of quarry. Even Vermont is getting built up. There is nowhere to really run a hound, so there isn't the hunting rejects. Nearby states are built up to the point where baying could get a dog killed for being a keeping the neighbors up. As much as I'd love a nice hound, until I know I'll be out of the suburbs, I can't risk one.
As for Vermont, in the winter, the distances are deceiving, driving from Burlington to Plattsburgh, NY, where many of the dogs are listed, is normally 30 miles. In the winter, the lake often freezes, and they shut down the ferry. This makes the drive over 100 miles.
How far are people normally willing to drive? It depends on your location, but 100 miles, one way, is a pretty long east coast drive.
Perhaps the question is, with few "native" adoptable dogs, how well are the northern rescues moving out hounds? Are those retrievers in Williston imported?
Housing density and lack of quarry. Even Vermont is getting built up. There is nowhere to really run a hound, so there isn't the hunting rejects. Nearby states are built up to the point where baying could get a dog killed for being a keeping the neighbors up. As much as I'd love a nice hound, until I know I'll be out of the suburbs, I can't risk one.
As for Vermont, in the winter, the distances are deceiving, driving from Burlington to Plattsburgh, NY, where many of the dogs are listed, is normally 30 miles. In the winter, the lake often freezes, and they shut down the ferry. This makes the drive over 100 miles.
How far are people normally willing to drive? It depends on your location, but 100 miles, one way, is a pretty long east coast drive.
Perhaps the question is, with few "native" adoptable dogs, how well are the northern rescues moving out hounds? Are those retrievers in Williston imported?
"Perhaps the question is, with few "native" adoptable dogs, how well are the northern rescues moving out hounds? Are those retrievers in Williston imported?"
I know the retriever rescue does import some dogs, because some of the dogs coming in on transports have been earmarked for them. I do not know enough about that rescue to know what the percentages are for them.
The smaller hounds do get placed fairly quickly. For a lot of families with good fenced in yards, they can be phenomenal pets; some of the best of any with children. The bigger the hound is, the harder it is to place up here generally.
I know the retriever rescue does import some dogs, because some of the dogs coming in on transports have been earmarked for them. I do not know enough about that rescue to know what the percentages are for them.
The smaller hounds do get placed fairly quickly. For a lot of families with good fenced in yards, they can be phenomenal pets; some of the best of any with children. The bigger the hound is, the harder it is to place up here generally.
- Joined
- Aug 14, 2007
- Messages
- 431
- Likes
- 0
- Points
- 0
And IMO, this brings up the old "ugly" discussion that no one wants to participate it because they find it cruel and evil and everything else: culling.
Ah....and look at where the non-culling groups have gotten horses....now horses are experiencing an "over population" problem. Articles about "winney" mills being posted in magazines. There hadn't been a problem when excess horses were slaughtered for food or dog food....but a group felt that that was wrong because horses are "pets".
It is hard for us to embrace that there is death where there is life. And no death is perfect. But death is required to obtain a balance.
I hate to say it, but I do think old time breeders had it right when they culled (killed) unsuitable puppies rather than handing them out to the pet public. If we breeders could stomach doing that again, rescues and shelters couldn't say we were taking homes away from shelter dogs or breeding for profit now could they?