Pet underpopulation Problem

[Romy]

I disagree. Many of the dogs in the JRT rescue would be PTS. Its often dumb owners not bad dogs. Of the dogs I have fostered, the majority had bite histories. Most just of the 'dent the skin' variety. Then one I have now drew blood on at least 2 occasions. I trust him the same amount as I trust my own dogs. They are dogs and if pushed will bite. Joey is not a bad dog, and as soon as posturing and threating stopped working for him, he settled down. One dog that had a bite history has been living with his new family for 2 years, and they say he is the sweetest dog ever. I think the circumstances need to be taken into account.

A rescue has the luxury of putting the animal in a normal home situation for a few weeks, sometimes more, to allow the animal's temperament to start showing. Something that can not be done in a shelter. I don't think animal control is equipped to safely evaluate the temperaments of the biters that are turned in, so they absolutely should not be adopting known biters out to the general public. If they can not find a rescue willing to take the animal on, it should absolutely be put down.

Personally, having a small child I would not adopt any dog with a known bite history, including JRTs from rescue. I'm sure some of them are really nice dogs that were pushed too far by idiots, but it would be irresponsible parenting for me to put my child and a dog that may or may not have a low threshold for pain or annoyance in that situation. Would you recommend any of those biters you fostered to families with small children? Because that's who very well could/would have adopted them if they were available through a shelter.

 

[Zoom]

I'm going to backtrack a couple pages here. The difference between breeding animals commonly accepted as livestock (horses, cows, goats, etc) is that they have longer gestation periods. They're not pumping out a litter of 5-12 puppies every six months to a year. Horses generally have one foal at a time, cows seem to have twins fairly commonly and I think it's the same for goats. Occasionally you'll get one that will throw triplets, but it's not as common.

What that means is that they have a longer recovery period and one offspring isn't going to tax their bodies as badly as 5-12 will when bred back to back to back to back to back. Now, mares like the PMU mares are a different story, because of the nature of that horrible business. They are overtaxed and abused just as much as any puppymill dog.

The issues I have with "puppy farmers" and "for-profit" breeding is that it's generally not done "right". Ok, fine, you want to produce and sell 5 litters a year? Ok, just make sure you're still doing ALL the requisites (improving the breed, not just your pocketbook, titling, testing, whelping underfoot) and only doing it with one litter at a time. If this means that one litter is dropped the moment the last pup from the previous litter is out the door, so be it. Just be fair and give your attention to one litter at a time. Don't sell to every Joe Schmo who is needing an "I'm sorry" gift for his girlfriend, or Sally Socialite who just needs that latest "accessory". I don't care how almighty the dollar is or is not anymore, I don't think it's fair to the dog or the new owners to hand over an undersocialized pup that was kept out in a shed/barn/kennel/box for convenience. Congratulations, you just sold the next shelter dog. These are living companion beings, not shoes. Don't treat them as such.

I also agree with the statement that says it's not an underpopulation problem, it's a problem of the available population is not what people are looking for. My inbox would not look the way it does if there was an underpopulation problem. I wouldn't have to feel a wrenching in my heart everytime I hit delete on "15 dogs will be killed tomorrow for space--please help!" And I get those emails every single d*mn day of the week. And yet the petstores around here are doing a booming business on WTF's and other assorted small dogs.

 

[FrenchKissed]

I don't know that there is strictly a "dog underpopulation" problem. More like "adoptable and fit to socialize with the general public" dog underpopulation, which importing foreign dogs won't do one iota to fix..

I have to say I definately agree...completely agree.

 

[FrenchKissed]

I disagree. Many of the dogs in the JRT rescue would be PTS. Its often dumb owners not bad dogs. .

I think you a both right.
I think it should depend on the breed. Terriers are a different kind of creature, they are not supposed to tollerant like a golden, lab or cocker. Pyrs are another breed, one that bites is deadly.
Each dog needs to be individually evaluated by someone who knows a little something about dog behavior and then the adopted people need to be informed...and we all know in way to many circumstances that does not happen.

 

[Dekka]

Personally, having a small child I would not adopt any dog with a known bite history, including JRTs from rescue. I'm sure some of them are really nice dogs that were pushed too far by idiots, but it would be irresponsible parenting for me to put my child and a dog that may or may not have a low threshold for pain or annoyance in that situation. Would you recommend any of those biters you fostered to families with small children? Because that's who very well could/would have adopted them if they were available through a shelter.

No family with small children is able to adopt a JRT period. I will not sell a pup to people with small children, or even children under 10. (unless it is a VERY dog savvy home) JRTs do not suffer fools or bad handling at all, no matter how well bred they are.

Most of the JRTs I have gotten that bit, were given to the rescue by shelters...

Back to the convo at hand ...

 

[FrenchKissed]

I'm going to backtrack a couple pages here. The difference between breeding animals commonly accepted as livestock (horses, cows, goats, etc) is that they have longer gestation periods. They're not pumping out a litter of 5-12 puppies every six months to a year. Horses generally have one foal at a time, cows seem to have twins fairly commonly and I think it's the same for goats. Occasionally you'll get one that will throw triplets, but it's not as common.

What that means is that they have a longer recovery period and one offspring isn't going to tax their bodies as badly as 5-12 will when bred back to back to back to back to back. Now, mares like the PMU mares are a different story, because of the nature of that horrible business. They are overtaxed and abused just as much as any puppymill dog.

If you talk to canine reproduction specialist. They will tell you a pregnant uterus is a happy uterus. There is not a lot of "between" time for cows or horses either. They are usually bred back to back. It may take longer for the genetation but it takes just as much resources for that foal or calf to come to term. And cows have to be bred regularly in order to stay in milk and many live stock animals will breed and be pregnant while raising their current offspring. Goats will also have more than a pair of kids, I think the most I have heard of them having is six...thank god mine never did that.
It is harder on a dog to cycle and not be pregnant than it is to be pregnant. The chance for hormon imbalance is great, thus the chance for pyo and death is just as likely.
And a dog that is not physically able to carry a litter won't. Their bodies will reject the fetus or they won't get pregnant at all. I could breed a chin on every heat cycle until the day she died and I would be lucky to get her pregnant twice. (that of course is being said tongue and cheek for those who are choking on their teeth) Chin have a very poor fertility rate, they simply don't get pregnant most of the time. Sometimes on rare occasions if I breed three of my girls they all take...but that is very rare and very unlikely.

 

[Dekka]

THe repo specialists that I have talked to, both canine and equine have said its better (physiologically) to breed back to back for how ever long you plan too, then stop. I would like 2 litters from Dekka, I may breed back to back, and then thats it.

 

[elegy]

But the type of dog people what IS often in a shelter. They just don't know that cute WTF (to steal someone's term for white things of fluff) puppy will turn into an adult that looks just like the one in the shelter. There is a stereotype against shelter and rescue dogs.

see, i disagree, based on what dogs i see in our local shelters and what puppies i see come through the door of our practice. maybe it varies a great deal based on location, but around here there's a huge disconnect between what's at the shelter and what our clients are bringing home.

 

[Dekka]

It could be regional, I just know when I go to a shelter around here there is a variety of dogs, including WTF and other designer things.

 

[Laurelin]

It could be regional, I just know when I go to a shelter around here there is a variety of dogs, including WTF and other designer things.

Ours too, BUT you can't deny that there is a disparity. We have many more pit bulls than anything else. We also have too many border collies, lab mixes, and hound mixes. The typical dog around here is actually a small apartment dog. We're in a college town. Of course we're also taking in all the rural dogs from miles around so that could explain. But I do agree that certain types of dogs are less wanted by the average home than others. But I don't really think there's an underpopulation of small fluffies either. If you want one you can always find one at the mall pet store, (gag) I just think based on what I see around here that there's an overpopulation of 'undesirable' types of dogs.

 

[Dekka]

I think there in an over pop of all dogs, though I agree around here you get more labs and hounds in the shelters than other breeds.

 

[mwood322]

Somewhat related question has anyone actually read Redemption: The Myth of Pet Overpopulation and the No Kill Revolution in America by Nathan J. Winograd.

I asked a couple months ago and no one had read it because they thought it would anger them.

--Mia

 

[Dekka]

I read it, for the most part I thought it was silly. It did have a couple of good points, but over all a waste of my time.

 

[mwood322]

Which parts came off silly?

--Mia

 

[Dekka]

I am not going to read it again, have better things to do with my time. But the logic was specious, the conclusions strange, just I found the whole thing silly (sorry I can't think of any better word for it other than silly)

 

[mwood322]

So the fact that he had 4 separate shelters in very different locales that went from high kill rates to low or no kill wasn't a good argument?

I'm asking because I have trouble finding people that even read the book, though I found it fairly well written, and had several very good points in it.

Such as if a shelter is only open between 12 and 1 every weekday for adoptions, how do you expect those wonderful family homes to magically appear if people have to "gasp" work... but the public is forcing them to kill dogs... not the fact that they're never open when the public can come.

--Mia

 

[Sweet72947]

In VA we have an influx of hounds - failed hunting dogs. Nobody wants hounds, they don't like the baying. But hounds actually make good family dogs, they are very sweet, affectionate and tend to be pretty tolerant and mellow (unless they are young hounds of course ).

But I agree its more an overpopulation of dogs nobody wants, like the hounds and the labs. Most of the dogs in shelters here are just lacking in basic manners training. And the excuses we hear most for giving up dogs/cats/other is that they are moving or having a baby. For proof just go to http://washingtondc.craigslist.com/nva/pet and see how many postings say "moving and cannot take". The sad thing is a lot of those animals listed are less than 6 mos old.

 

[Zoom]

I about shot myself today reading Craigslist... "moving" "found out a month ago we're pregnant, got the dog anyway and now changed our minds"

Oh this was a great one "My golden needs a stronger commanding voice and it scares our BC, so we're rehoming the golden."

 

[smkie]

in other words my golden is impossible..i can't control him and he is dominating the whole house

as to the other..we are impulsive people and we screwed up..please clean up our mess

 

[Miakoda]

The fact remains is that there are more dogs needing homes than there are homes needing or wanting dogs.