Pet underpopulation Problem

[Buddy'sParents]

My local shelter spays/neuters NOTHING before it leaves.

And yet you believe that there is a pet underpopulation problem.

I'll buy the underpopulation "problem" when pigs fly and the dish runs away with the spoon.

 

[Laurelin]

I dont know about everywhere else, but in a few shelters/rescues that I know of in NC and SC.. they do NOT neuter/spay the dogs they send them out with a contract saying that you will do this on such and such a day and thats it...

All our dogs/cats are sent out spayed and neutered- you have to wait a few days to pick them up so they can be altered. I think it's odd that shelters don't do that actually.

 

[huskyloves]

The implications I am getting from your post is that you would like everyone to stop breeding.

Nope, absolutely not , I'm all for quality, responsible breeding, which in my book is done to better a breed and for the love of the breed. Every excellent breeder I know produces for temperament and health first, conformation and working ability next, and everything show quality is co-owned. All pet quality pups are sold within the area with a neuter date assigned to the pup with the breeders vet, and if the date isn't kept, the breeder will take the pup back.

I dont know about everywhere else, but in a few shelters/rescues that I know of in NC and SC.. they do NOT neuter/spay the dogs they send them out with a contract saying that you will do this on such and such a day and thats it...

And I do understand the quandary that the southern shelters are in, they're overloaded because they cannot get the populace to understand how bad it's really gotten, and many of the rural areas are operating on a shoestring, and it's those areas that are in the worst need of spay/neuter programs. It's a rotten catch 22, no money in the budgets to speuter, and no help form the community to get their animals snipped .

 

[HoundedByHounds]

Spaying and neutering everything, will not stem the tide of owner turn in's...because spayed or neutered, FiFi still won't match the carpet...the kids are still allergic to Fluffkins...BoBo just will NOT listen and he nipped our son Timmy...and the family is still moving and can't take poor Beauregard.

MOST of the reason's given for owner turn ins (and the dumping that leads to strays) have nothing to do with testicles or uterus..but brains...or lack thereof on the part of the human owner on what actually is entailed with being a pet owner.

Yap about numbers and culpability all you want but the fact is...people throw things out when they are no longer convenient. If it is not a dog it is a hamster, bird, or goldfish...that an overpopulation of any of the aforementioned would be existant and no one, IMO would care half as much is kinda interesting.

As with so many animal related causes and debates...if Panda's looked like Barbirusa's...they'd be extinct already.

 

[Laurelin]

I don't think anyone is saying to spay/neuter everything. I just don't see how you could argue not to spay/neuter shelter dogs. Obviously they're not from the best backgrounds and we sure don't need them making more dogs.

There is a problem, though. Just last friday when I was in we got not one but TWO litters of puppies. Each litter had 10 pups so 20 puppies in a day. True, we get a lot of owner surrenders but at this time of the year we get just as many if not more puppies. (We're talking 8 weeks old or younger).

I agree it's all an owner problem, but that still doesn't mean overpopulation doesn't exist- especially in some parts of the country. Overpopulation of small purebred dogs? Probably not, but overpopulation of dogs- yes.

I'm far from an advocate of mandatory spay/neuter as I'm sure everyone here knows.

 

[HoundedByHounds]

I don't think anyone is saying to spay/neuter everything.

Here right now? perhaps not...

but in the USA in general?

Oh yes..yes I do think people are indeed, saying precisely that. Or they would be if dedicated people were not out there reminding them that aside from what PeTA might like...some of us would prefer to still have dogs in this world...and requiring some sort of "exemptions" be made to that sort of legistlation....or better yet simply squashing it outright.

No I am not saying s/n of shelter pets is bad or not needed. I am saying expanding this to encompass animals that are responsibly owned and thus will never see the inside of a shelter...is not going to solve the shelters problems, because people and the fickleness of said same, are the cause of their problems in the majority of cases...not uterii or testicles.

 

[HoundedByHounds]

I also think many shelters might find their kill numbers go down if they take an active role in un-demonizing the various breeds many of them kill on entry. Ambassadors of said breeds showing their true charming natures are more than plentiful in shelters nationwide...yet many simply slate them for destruction instead of even trying to give them a new face as far as society is concerned.

Shelters could on the whole...do more than they are for certain breeds of dog, aside from caving and labelling them all as 'unadoptable' when various issues would be quickly worked with an corrected were they another breed...IMO.

 

[FrenchKissed]

The difference is that dogs are companion animals, livestock is not, and I cannot remember the last time I saw a herd of homeless cattle clogging up a shelter for becoming unuseful.
And yes, as a matter of fact, I have indeed worked in a kennel, except it wasn't a for profit one, it was a program for assistance dogs.

I have yet to see a dog that was worth tens of thousands dollars, and if people do pay that kind of money, then PT Barnum was indeed correct. A service dog from the Seeing Eye might be worth that, but that's about the only worthy one I can think of. And those lucky people don't pay a dime for those dogs.

I can see you and I are going to never see eye to eye on this, so I will have to just agree to disagree .

It's only different because we choose to see it that way. Horses are companion animals too, so are some breeds of goats, pigs and rabbits. Many people who love their companion animals (of other breeds) love them as much as we love our dogs. Yet we still seperate the two. Honestly I think it would be better to be one in the same, dog breeders and owners would have more rights.
What I am proposing is no different than people who point out that not every dog on a chain is abused, not every pit bull is mean or owned by someone who does drugs or runs guns. Yet when it comes to breeders way to many people who can understand those differences refuses to understand the difference between good and bad breeders (money aside).
Words like Puppymill were introduced into our language by the same people who think all pitbulls are evil and chains should be banned. It's a blanket word, a word to insite anger and seperation. It's a hard word to stop using because I have to bite my tounge more than once a week, but it's a word that gives the ARs (the same people who think mushing is bad, chains are bad, dog breeding of anykind is bad) power.

 

[FrenchKissed]

And yet you believe that there is a pet underpopulation problem.

I'll buy the underpopulation "problem" when pigs fly and the dish runs away with the spoon.

Because there is a problem in my area, it does not mean that the entire US has a problem. Can YOU leave your car doors unlocked at night or your house unlocked without fear of someone breaking in. Can you go away from home for a week and do that? I bet not, but it's common in my area to not even have a house key. Because one person lives in an area where crime is a problem, it does not mean the entire populated area of the US has that same problem.
Many of the dogs in my local shelter I would not consider adoptable either....but in other areas there are adoptable dogs. Unfortnuately it seems most of the ones in my shelter are coy-dog mixes which to me is just dangerous.

 

[FrenchKissed]

All our dogs/cats are sent out spayed and neutered- you have to wait a few days to pick them up so they can be altered. I think it's odd that shelters don't do that actually.

It's actually law here for it to be done as in most places, but they get around it by having a "spay neuter" agreement. Shelters just like many bad breeders, rely on impulse buying to get dogs out the door.

 

[Romy]

Howver, that being said, how many breeders actually do that? How many can actually say that they've NEVER sold a dog that wasn't bred by it's new owners without permission? And why does that account for the amount of purebred dogs sitting in shelters? Hell, my rescue alone has 17, count 'em 17, PB Siberians, with more waiting to be pulled everyday. So those beautiful PB dogs had to come from somewhere, right? Yeah, they came from what was supposed to be a GOOD breeder who sold a dog to a moron who thought their roachybacked, underbiting, pet quality dog was so special that it needed to have just one litter.

And that's how it snowballed, and if they can't see it, then it's time to take the blinders off.

Are you sure somebody didn't see an unbearably cute husky puppy for $2500 at their local pet store, and then feel like they should be able to recoup some of their costs? That's far more likely of a scenario than a responsible show/working dog breeder's pet quality animal reproducing. Not that it's impossible because I am sure there are some out there, but I don't think that's where the majority of purebred dogs in shelters originated from a few generations ago. Most were probably pet store puppymilled animals who were purchased and bred.

 

[BostonBanker]

"Actually, that really isn't true, the majority of dogs in the northeast are stray pickups, followed closely by owner surrender because of relocation. Any behavioral issues we see from shelter dogs are simply a lack of some basic training, nothing more. And the health issues are from neglect or lack of basic care. The myth that the southern dogs are better in temperament is just that, a myth, I can't begin to tell you the amount of dogs I see with behavioral issues that were trucked up from southern shelters."

Sorry, my quote button doesn't work anymore.

What I'm seeing is what all shelters and rescues in our area are seeing. I suspect being closer to major urban areas, you see different things. Yes, almost all of the local dogs coming in to rescue are strays. But as I said, generally with serious behavioral issues. The last local dog my friend got in was an 8 yr old JRT that someone tied to her doorknob and tried to run away from. Dog aggressive (goes after larger dogs, and then gets is butt whooped; has needed vet visits), human aggressive (the owners reason for dumping; safe around quiet adults, will bite if startled), not housebroken (and goes in his crate if crated), and put punctures in my friend's cat that required a vet visit. How many people are looking to adopt that? Meanwhile, she brought in five adolescent or young adult dogs from WV the other day. They won't be temperment tested until closer to when they are ready to be adopted (yes, she hangs on to them for a while to fairly evalute health and temperment), but so far, all crate quietly and show no signs of dog aggression or resource guarding. I'd bet money all of those dogs will be successfully placed before the JRT.

I don't know of any rescue/shelter in our area that deals with only local dogs. The transports from WV, Tennessee and Georgia that come up generally bring dogs for several different rescues and humane societies. They all take in whatever local dogs are available, and adopt them out if they are safe, but our rescues would be pretty much empty if no other dogs were brought in. And then what options do we leave people with? You can bet not all are going to do the research and waiting time to get a dog from a responsible breeder. The local pet store and BYBs would be getting far more business.

While I don't agree with everything she says, Sue Sternberg's book Successful Dog Adoption has a pretty interesting (and, from what I've seen, accurate) discussion about what types of dogs tend to get put into rescue in different parts of the country.

 

[FrenchKissed]

Yap about numbers and culpability all you want but the fact is...people throw things out when they are no longer convenient. If it is not a dog it is a hamster, bird, or goldfish...that an overpopulation of any of the aforementioned would be existant and no one, IMO would care half as much is kinda interesting..

Sadly you are right about that. Most shelter dogs are an owner problem and nothing more. But then this disposible society we have creates is essentially our own fault. We promote it, we pet it, we push it (just look at our advertising on TV if you doubt it).
Cheaper, faster, easier to buy....
It's exactly why Wal-mart does so well...despite the millions of small communities it has destroyed and its continual exploitation of the working public that gets paid less than enough to live on.
But everybody just looooooves those cheap clothes, supplies, food, etc....

 

[FrenchKissed]

But as I said, generally with serious behavioral issues. The last local dog my friend got in was an 8 yr old JRT that someone tied to her doorknob and tried to run away from. .

Our local shelter recently adopted out a pure bred cocker to a co-worker of my friend of mine. The dog growled before it ever left the place and when asked they were told it had been turned in for biting, but since it had only bitten ONCE they were going to adopt it out. Now my friend was there during this "adoption" and warned her co-worker that this was not a good idea. But the co-worker would not listen, her dad was grieving for his pet....
well....to make a long story short...
The dad (after SEVERAL incidences with other people) wound up in the hospital with sever bite wounds to his hand and face. Elderly people have thin skin and this dog made mince meat of him.
The shelter conviently "lost" the paperwork regarding this dog and when the adopters went back to sign paper work and pay an adoption fee (before the bite of course) they denied that the dog even came from them.
Oh and the what happened to the dog? The irresponsible party that adopted it in the first place GAVE IT AWAY TO A FAMILY WITH 5 KIDS.......

 

[Laurelin]

It's actually law here for it to be done as in most places, but they get around it by having a "spay neuter" agreement. Shelters just like many bad breeders, rely on impulse buying to get dogs out the door.

True but that's why we require potential owners to wait a few days to come back and pick up the dog. I guess that's not normal then? We weed out a bunch of flaky owners that way. You come in, get approved and you can pick up the dog in 3 days.

I'm not to say that shelters couldn't do a better job, I just think a lot is easier said than done.

 

[Romy]

Our local shelter recently adopted out a pure bred cocker to a co-worker of my friend of mine. The dog growled before it ever left the place and when asked they were told it had been turned in for biting, but since it had only bitten ONCE they were going to adopt it out. Now my friend was there during this "adoption" and warned her co-worker that this was not a good idea. But the co-worker would not listen, her dad was grieving for his pet....
well....to make a long story short...
The dad (after SEVERAL incidences with other people) wound up in the hospital with sever bite wounds to his hand and face. Elderly people have thin skin and this dog made mince meat of him.
The shelter conviently "lost" the paperwork regarding this dog and when the adopters went back to sign paper work and pay an adoption fee (before the bite of course) they denied that the dog even came from them.
Oh and the what happened to the dog? The irresponsible party that adopted it in the first place GAVE IT AWAY TO A FAMILY WITH 5 KIDS.......

This is exactly why we got a puppy from a breeder......We fostered rescues for a good while, no way in heck was I going to bring an animal with an unknown background like that into my home with a baby. We don't even foster anymore, it's too dangerous for her. Every foster we brought home had some really major issues that made them very unsafe around children, and had to be adopted to adult only homes. I really worried about that even. I loved Seamus so much that I wish we could have kept him....He has a great home but sometimes I still wonder, what if a kid hugged him from behind on the street or something? Fortunately the people who adopted him are very conscious, but crap happens.

I don't know that there is strictly a "dog underpopulation" problem. More like "adoptable and fit to socialize with the general public" dog underpopulation, which importing foreign dogs won't do one iota to fix.

That is so sad about the cocker. Dogs with a bite history ought to be put down when brought in, and that story is exactly why. Sad for the dog, but the vast majority of people are not equipped to handle an animal like that. It's not worth the life of somebodies child to keep them around, especially when there are good dogs out there that still need homes. I am scared for those five kids. I wonder if those folks know they stand to lose every thing they own when that dog bites one of those children. Knowingly selling/giving away a biting dog is one of the riskiest things you could do.

 

[Dekka]

hat is so sad about the cocker. Dogs with a bite history ought to be put down when brought in

I disagree. Many of the dogs in the JRT rescue would be PTS. Its often dumb owners not bad dogs. Of the dogs I have fostered, the majority had bite histories. Most just of the 'dent the skin' variety. Then one I have now drew blood on at least 2 occasions. I trust him the same amount as I trust my own dogs. They are dogs and if pushed will bite. Joey is not a bad dog, and as soon as posturing and threating stopped working for him, he settled down. One dog that had a bite history has been living with his new family for 2 years, and they say he is the sweetest dog ever. I think the circumstances need to be taken into account.

 

[corgipower]

AC's are not above "raiding" local breeders to take their dogs and then adopt them out far and above the normal adoption fee. Yeah...lots of things AC/shelters do...makes me wonder who's interests exactly...they are serving.

Yea, and some of them will breed the dogs they steal - I mean seize - and then sell - oops, adopt out - the puppies.

The surrender of adolescent dogs with behavior problems and older dogs with health problems is not an issue of overpopulation, it's an issue of retention.

 

[elegy]

The thing the pet underpopulation people are taking into consideration is this: puppymills, petstores, bybers are all doing a booming business. People are looking for dogs, purchasing dogs, constantly. According to their numbers, more dogs are going into homes than are being killed in shelters. I have no idea if that's accurate, but I'll give them the benefit of the doubt.

If there really were a pet overpopulation problem, their argument is that the millers would be going out of business. And we all know that's not the case. If there were not profit, if there were not buyers, they wouldn't waste their time.

So there are homes. They're just not interested in shelter dogs, for whatever reason.

How do you fix that? I know there are some good ideas- make shelters more user-friendly, make their hours more accessible, advertise, etc etc. But if the type of dogs that people want aren't at the shelter, then none of that is going to do much good. And I don't know how you fix that. Trying to convince potential owners that they want dogs who are not good fits is just going to backfire and land the dogs back in the shelters, so that's no good. And I just cannot believe that there is a safe, responsible, capable home for every pit bull in our shelter system right now. Sorry.

 

[Dekka]

But the type of dog people what IS often in a shelter. They just don't know that cute WTF (to steal someone's term for white things of fluff) puppy will turn into an adult that looks just like the one in the shelter. There is a stereotype against shelter and rescue dogs.

Its an education issue IMO