ohhh Oakley, hahah!
- Thread starter Dreeza
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Believe me RD - I place plenty of value in good training. What I don't place value on is having my dog off leash, exposing him and others to danger/annoyance/distraction, in a totally inappropriate area. I don't think it is much to ask to keep your dog on a leash in a residential area - as the law and common sense dictates.
If your dog has a fantastic recall and will not budge from the 'heel' position in the face of all distractions, why can't you use a leash? how is heeling the dog off leash any different from heeling it on leash?
There is a time and a place for off leashing. A residentual area by a road is not it.
If your dog has a fantastic recall and will not budge from the 'heel' position in the face of all distractions, why can't you use a leash? how is heeling the dog off leash any different from heeling it on leash?
There is a time and a place for off leashing. A residentual area by a road is not it.
I can and do, probably 95% of the time. She's off-lead in quiet residential areas for training purposes only, to improve her behavior both on-leash and off.
Heeling on-leash is different when it comes to training. Teaching a good working heel on-lead is a tough thing to do because so many trainers rely on the leash to control the dog. I personally do this too - if she goes a little too far, I instinctively pull her back without realizing what I've done. Her training suffers then, because when she's not on the leash or when I don't have my hands on the leash, she's sloppy - she'll grow to rely on those little insignificant (to me) leash checks in order to maintain a good heel. So for proofing and maintainance of important commands like heel (a service dog should always be in a relative heel position on either side unless instructed otherwise) I do train off-lead, and as soon as I'm done training in an urban area, the leash goes back on. Truthfully, her off-leash training is done to perfect her on-leash behavior and prepare her for situations in which she will NEED to be off-leash (security checkpoints in airports, walking around at sheepdog trials, leaving me to locate something or someone, etc.) She'd be a less reliable working dog if she didn't train offlead.
Heeling on-leash is different when it comes to training. Teaching a good working heel on-lead is a tough thing to do because so many trainers rely on the leash to control the dog. I personally do this too - if she goes a little too far, I instinctively pull her back without realizing what I've done. Her training suffers then, because when she's not on the leash or when I don't have my hands on the leash, she's sloppy - she'll grow to rely on those little insignificant (to me) leash checks in order to maintain a good heel. So for proofing and maintainance of important commands like heel (a service dog should always be in a relative heel position on either side unless instructed otherwise) I do train off-lead, and as soon as I'm done training in an urban area, the leash goes back on. Truthfully, her off-leash training is done to perfect her on-leash behavior and prepare her for situations in which she will NEED to be off-leash (security checkpoints in airports, walking around at sheepdog trials, leaving me to locate something or someone, etc.) She'd be a less reliable working dog if she didn't train offlead.
I did post that - because all the petty, self-righteous bickering and recrimination that's cropping up, not just on this thread, but here and there, randomly throughout the forum, is CHILDISH and ugly and hurtful and accomplishes nothing whatsoever.
I've had it. There's enough hurt in the world without adding to it for no good reason.
I've had it. There's enough hurt in the world without adding to it for no good reason.
I don't think anyone can argue with training a dog to be controllable off leash. But you can have a dog who is reliable off leash without having to expose it to dangers and innappropriate situations. In my and hopefully many others minds, off leash training in a residential area, alongside a road with traffic and pedestrians, is not an appropriate place for off leash time. The OP of this thread seems to be under the illusion that her dog won't ever step foot in the road, that leashes are "cruel" and that her dog "needs" to run in the neighbourhood. I certainly wasn't under the impression that the OP had her dog under any kind of control, especially when she said she had a 'release' command for allowing the dog to chase squirrels, presumably into peoples yards.
aww thanks! ::HUGS:: back...hehe, just seeing your sig makes me smile...your william and maya are just SOOO darn adorable!!
oh really? Luckily I am able throw "forum drama" aside when I get off the computer, but to be honest, when this thread first stared up, I was hurt for a little bit...mostly by your comments actually come to think of it...assuming that I "dont care" that he fell, and that "I am just never going to get it" (which btw...you said you were done w/this thread @ that point...).
Anyways, you really think I am that dense and ignorant that I just cannot understand the extremely complicated concept of a LEASH? If you are going to keep posting in my threads then please do me a favor and for once, READ what I say. Once again...I am living in reality, and even if all this bickering somehow does manage to convince me, it is not going to convince my family. And seeing as I am home 2 days max every month...clearly, convincing me isn't really worth it...
oh really? Luckily I am able throw "forum drama" aside when I get off the computer, but to be honest, when this thread first stared up, I was hurt for a little bit...mostly by your comments actually come to think of it...assuming that I "dont care" that he fell, and that "I am just never going to get it" (which btw...you said you were done w/this thread @ that point...).
Anyways, you really think I am that dense and ignorant that I just cannot understand the extremely complicated concept of a LEASH? If you are going to keep posting in my threads then please do me a favor and for once, READ what I say. Once again...I am living in reality, and even if all this bickering somehow does manage to convince me, it is not going to convince my family. And seeing as I am home 2 days max every month...clearly, convincing me isn't really worth it...
Dreeza, I think what started this thread on the wrong track was that you posted it right after posting that other thread about Oakley rushing the guy giving out flyers. Its now probably in people's minds that you are letting an aggressive dog off-leash (even though he's probably fine off the property). I'm a little surprised that that thread didn't go farther than it did; when I posted a similar story I was thoroughly chastised. 
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Hmmm. One of my dogs is off-leash most of the time, regardless of where we are. She's dependable and we have a tremendous bond. She's nearly 12 and has been off-leash most of her life.
You know, I know a lot of good trainers who have dogs that they walk off-leash all the time. I don't know of a SINGLE off-leash trained dog owned by one of these people that has been hit by a car or kicked by a moose (that's an Alaskan thing) or has started a fight. I know of a lot of dogs owned by people who don't do off-leash training who have gotten loose and been hit by cars, etc. You just can't lump all people and all dogs into the same category. MOST people who put good, solid, consistent training into their dogs end up with dogs that they can trust to be obedient off-leash. Those people out there who let their dogs run willy-nilly into your yard to crap all over are not good dog owners. Trying to lump us all together is truly an ignorant thing to do.
Dogs and their people become dependent on leashes for control. I will NEVER have a puppy again that isn't started on off-leash training immediately. I don't want my dogs to ever have to depend on a leash in order to be responsive. It's a training issue. RD has made some very good points about this. I train my dogs off-leash every chance I get. I never stop training, never stop reinforcing for attention and obedience off-leash.
My dogs would not get the same exercise or enjoyment if they had to live their entire lives on a flexi or long line or leash. We don't have dog parks here, and if we did I don't think I'd use them. How many stories do we hear about problem dogs in dog parks? LOTS. Why would I expose my well-behaved, well-mannered off-leash dog to dogs who can't be trusted off-leash? And for whoever was concerned about diseases in water puddles - man, you better never take your dog to a dog park or anywhere that dogs congregate. Proof of vaccination is probably not required at most of those places.
The original story was one of those "whoops, that could have been bad" types of stories. I think it all happened so fast that Oakley would have been in the yard regardless of whether he'd been on leash or not. I'm glad nothing bad happened - and I'm glad that there wasn't a dog-aggressive dog in the yard. Personally I'm not fond of dog-aggressive dogs and I socialize my dogs extensively and if a dog dropped out of the sky into their yard, they'd handle it fine without ripping it apart. But that's my choice in training and my choice in dog behavior.
My dogs swim in lakes and rivers (*gasp* .. they'll get beaver fever!!), play on the beach in the salt water (OMG, that salt's bad for their skin), gobble down the occasional dead fish or bird (RAW FOOD??? DREADFUL!!), run through the woods and leap over fallen trees (I'm SUCH a bad owner, they may trip and hurt themselves). The joy that they show in being able to run and play like this is something that all those always-leashed dogs will never have a chance to experience. A bit of a run in a fenced yard is NOT the same. Going to the dog park is NOT the same. But I suppose if that's all you can trust your dog to do, then that will be the limitation for your dog.
Woah. So if I was walking along with my off-leash dog calmly by my side, being fully obedient, you would call the cops? And WASTE their time on something so trivial? That just boggles the mind. Truly. The police here would laugh at you and if you continued to do something so nonsensical, they'd probably cite YOU for police harassment.
I don't know, people. I've been training dogs for a long long time and I'll always train my dogs to be off-leash. In fact, I felt so strongly about allowing my young chow - a dog of high energy, a dog that is the epitome of joy when she can race around with her fur streaming back and her tail unfurled (impossible to run like that on a leash) - that I went beyond my normal training methods in order to allow her that freedom. It's not something I did lightly but I made my decision based on what I felt was truly right for my dog. I have other dogs that don't need that freedom, who are pretty much okay with a little walk on-leash if that's all that's available. Maybe most of you who are so adamant about never letting your dogs loose have dogs that are couch potatoes like my two older chows. But you know, even couch potatoes slip out the door and get loose once in awhile, and without off-leash recall training they're at high risk to get hurt when they do that.
Melanie and the gang in Alaska
You know, I know a lot of good trainers who have dogs that they walk off-leash all the time. I don't know of a SINGLE off-leash trained dog owned by one of these people that has been hit by a car or kicked by a moose (that's an Alaskan thing) or has started a fight. I know of a lot of dogs owned by people who don't do off-leash training who have gotten loose and been hit by cars, etc. You just can't lump all people and all dogs into the same category. MOST people who put good, solid, consistent training into their dogs end up with dogs that they can trust to be obedient off-leash. Those people out there who let their dogs run willy-nilly into your yard to crap all over are not good dog owners. Trying to lump us all together is truly an ignorant thing to do.
Dogs and their people become dependent on leashes for control. I will NEVER have a puppy again that isn't started on off-leash training immediately. I don't want my dogs to ever have to depend on a leash in order to be responsive. It's a training issue. RD has made some very good points about this. I train my dogs off-leash every chance I get. I never stop training, never stop reinforcing for attention and obedience off-leash.
My dogs would not get the same exercise or enjoyment if they had to live their entire lives on a flexi or long line or leash. We don't have dog parks here, and if we did I don't think I'd use them. How many stories do we hear about problem dogs in dog parks? LOTS. Why would I expose my well-behaved, well-mannered off-leash dog to dogs who can't be trusted off-leash? And for whoever was concerned about diseases in water puddles - man, you better never take your dog to a dog park or anywhere that dogs congregate. Proof of vaccination is probably not required at most of those places.
The original story was one of those "whoops, that could have been bad" types of stories. I think it all happened so fast that Oakley would have been in the yard regardless of whether he'd been on leash or not. I'm glad nothing bad happened - and I'm glad that there wasn't a dog-aggressive dog in the yard. Personally I'm not fond of dog-aggressive dogs and I socialize my dogs extensively and if a dog dropped out of the sky into their yard, they'd handle it fine without ripping it apart. But that's my choice in training and my choice in dog behavior.
My dogs swim in lakes and rivers (*gasp* .. they'll get beaver fever!!), play on the beach in the salt water (OMG, that salt's bad for their skin), gobble down the occasional dead fish or bird (RAW FOOD??? DREADFUL!!), run through the woods and leap over fallen trees (I'm SUCH a bad owner, they may trip and hurt themselves). The joy that they show in being able to run and play like this is something that all those always-leashed dogs will never have a chance to experience. A bit of a run in a fenced yard is NOT the same. Going to the dog park is NOT the same. But I suppose if that's all you can trust your dog to do, then that will be the limitation for your dog.
Woah. So if I was walking along with my off-leash dog calmly by my side, being fully obedient, you would call the cops? And WASTE their time on something so trivial? That just boggles the mind. Truly. The police here would laugh at you and if you continued to do something so nonsensical, they'd probably cite YOU for police harassment.
I don't know, people. I've been training dogs for a long long time and I'll always train my dogs to be off-leash. In fact, I felt so strongly about allowing my young chow - a dog of high energy, a dog that is the epitome of joy when she can race around with her fur streaming back and her tail unfurled (impossible to run like that on a leash) - that I went beyond my normal training methods in order to allow her that freedom. It's not something I did lightly but I made my decision based on what I felt was truly right for my dog. I have other dogs that don't need that freedom, who are pretty much okay with a little walk on-leash if that's all that's available. Maybe most of you who are so adamant about never letting your dogs loose have dogs that are couch potatoes like my two older chows. But you know, even couch potatoes slip out the door and get loose once in awhile, and without off-leash recall training they're at high risk to get hurt when they do that.
Melanie and the gang in Alaska
I think you are missing the point here.
No one said off leash was a bad thing. It's not. If you have a well trained dog, you don't let your dog bother others and it is off leash in a SAFE and LEGAL area, fine. Who can argue with you? but that was NOT the case here. The OP of this thread lets her dog run and roam along the sidewalks because she believes that 'containing' the dog with a leash is "cruel". Her dog does was not calmly heeling by her side, nor was it under control. Although even if her dog WAS calmly heeling by her side, she'd still be breaking the law. You can't pick and choose with the law according to how it suits you. If the law says a dog should be leashed, it should be leashed, with no room for interpretation.
No one said off leash was a bad thing. It's not. If you have a well trained dog, you don't let your dog bother others and it is off leash in a SAFE and LEGAL area, fine. Who can argue with you? but that was NOT the case here. The OP of this thread lets her dog run and roam along the sidewalks because she believes that 'containing' the dog with a leash is "cruel". Her dog does was not calmly heeling by her side, nor was it under control. Although even if her dog WAS calmly heeling by her side, she'd still be breaking the law. You can't pick and choose with the law according to how it suits you. If the law says a dog should be leashed, it should be leashed, with no room for interpretation.
IliamnasQuest, I totally agree with you. I think you're completely right in everything you said. (sounds a little kiss-ass but true lol)
Also, i was very surprised that many people here said that if Oakley had landed in their yard, their dog would've 'ripped him to bits.'
Sounds like there is a lot of vicious dogs owned here, you'd think people who joined a forum dedicated to the care, training and love of their dogs would prioritise socialization high on their list. Obviously not.
(With the exception of guard dogs... but personally i think guard dogs are in a league of their own, they're not generally loved family pets like most people's dogs, so why would an owner of a guard dog join this forum??)
I think you're completely right in everything you said. (sounds a little kiss-ass but true lol)Also, i was very surprised that many people here said that if Oakley had landed in their yard, their dog would've 'ripped him to bits.'
Sounds like there is a lot of vicious dogs owned here, you'd think people who joined a forum dedicated to the care, training and love of their dogs would prioritise socialization high on their list. Obviously not.
(With the exception of guard dogs... but personally i think guard dogs are in a league of their own, they're not generally loved family pets like most people's dogs, so why would an owner of a guard dog join this forum??)
SharkBait,
You have to consider the fact that everyones situation is different. Some of the people who stated that their dog/s would be less than happy with a strange dog entering their yard own breeds which are known for dog aggression. Or dogs that are known for guard-like tendencies. For some breeds, it is pure instinct and no amount of training or socialization can remove that. Owners of such breeds do their best to manage those tendancies, but it is also important for owners of happy-go-lucky breeds to keep control over their dogs also.
You have to consider the fact that everyones situation is different. Some of the people who stated that their dog/s would be less than happy with a strange dog entering their yard own breeds which are known for dog aggression. Or dogs that are known for guard-like tendencies. For some breeds, it is pure instinct and no amount of training or socialization can remove that. Owners of such breeds do their best to manage those tendancies, but it is also important for owners of happy-go-lucky breeds to keep control over their dogs also.
Good post, Melanie. I wonder, could it be that because people like you and I are from rather remote locations, we're a little less strict about leashes? As I mentioned in another thread, where I live there are no leash laws and I grew up on a ranch, where we didn't even OWN leashes for the work dogs.
My first puppy, Ripley, was on the leash constantly whenever he was outside the house, because I was too afraid of losing him to let him go. He's 4 years old and still doesn't have an off-lead recall. When I got Dakota I made a point to do most of his training off-lead, and what a difference it made. I have control of his mind and behavior, not just control of his body at the end of a lead. Do I trust any of my dogs 100% not to be dogs? Of course not. It's why I do use leads. But I'm confident that if I needed to go somewhere without one, my dog would remain under quiet voice control.
SharkBait, my dogs are very well socialized, but they are territorial and another male dog magically materializing in their yard would not be a pretty picture. They're not dog-aggressive, but they're protective of their yard when we're not there with them. Most dogs will protect their turf. That doesn't make them vicious.
My first puppy, Ripley, was on the leash constantly whenever he was outside the house, because I was too afraid of losing him to let him go. He's 4 years old and still doesn't have an off-lead recall. When I got Dakota I made a point to do most of his training off-lead, and what a difference it made. I have control of his mind and behavior, not just control of his body at the end of a lead. Do I trust any of my dogs 100% not to be dogs? Of course not. It's why I do use leads. But I'm confident that if I needed to go somewhere without one, my dog would remain under quiet voice control.
SharkBait, my dogs are very well socialized, but they are territorial and another male dog magically materializing in their yard would not be a pretty picture. They're not dog-aggressive, but they're protective of their yard when we're not there with them. Most dogs will protect their turf. That doesn't make them vicious.
I really can't believe what I am reading here. Bottom line: It is illegal to have a dog off leash, ILLEGAL! Dreeza I am sure you love your dog but are you ready to take responsibility if your dog injures someone or another dog? Do you own a house or anything of value? I am an extremely nice person and I love dogs and I am not sue happy but two blocks over from me is a family that lets their dogs run loose. Because of this MY DOG CAN NOT GO ON WALKS ANYMORE! How is this fair to me and other people in the neighborhood? They have been warned and if there dogs come on to my property again the police will be called and GOD forbid (for all involved) if their dogs hurt my niece and nephew or any of my dogs they will be some sorry people and I will have a new house.
I have given these people fair warning and they continue to do this. I should make the point that they do walk with the dogs but the dogs run wild and they think that is okay because they are with them.
Now I know the problem I am having is on the extreme side of things and I am sure your dog is better trained but all it takes is one time of your dog not listening perhaps as little as knocking someone down. You have to remember a lot of people hate dogs and would not hesitate to sue you and have Oakley put to sleep.
IT IS ILLEGAL TO HAVE A DOG OFF LEASH! THE LAW WILL NOT BE ON YOUR SIDE! GOOD LUCK! I hope you see the light for your sake and Oakleys sake.
I have given these people fair warning and they continue to do this. I should make the point that they do walk with the dogs but the dogs run wild and they think that is okay because they are with them.
Now I know the problem I am having is on the extreme side of things and I am sure your dog is better trained but all it takes is one time of your dog not listening perhaps as little as knocking someone down. You have to remember a lot of people hate dogs and would not hesitate to sue you and have Oakley put to sleep.
IT IS ILLEGAL TO HAVE A DOG OFF LEASH! THE LAW WILL NOT BE ON YOUR SIDE! GOOD LUCK! I hope you see the light for your sake and Oakleys sake.
I don't think that's fair to assume that everyone who chooses to walk their dogs on-leash owns a dog that experiences as little as you're implying. My dog has done all of those things. And yes, most times she's been on-leash. There is a stream surrounded by woods right behind my parents' house that she loves, but there are stupid people with guns who I don't trust. If I knew she was safe, I really wouldn't have a problem letting her off.
I think what RD mentioned may be a huge factor. The surrounding area is decently populated, and there are people I just don't trust. I can't exactly trust my dog to avoid a bullet. Or even some of the steel traps I've seen back there.
Unfortunately we won't ever get everyone here to agree. But hopefully we can agree that leash or no leash, everyone's dogs seem healthy, happy, and loved. Isn't that what's most important?
I think what RD mentioned may be a huge factor. The surrounding area is decently populated, and there are people I just don't trust. I can't exactly trust my dog to avoid a bullet. Or even some of the steel traps I've seen back there.
Unfortunately we won't ever get everyone here to agree. But hopefully we can agree that leash or no leash, everyone's dogs seem healthy, happy, and loved. Isn't that what's most important?