Nailing Cesar Millan With Tough, Truthful, Appropriate Questions - It's About Time

[monkeys23]

That is like my perfect BC. He's so gorgeous!

If someone had told me Scout could hold an off leash sit-stay and ignore a stray cat sauntering by with Lily next to her doing the same (as prey drive pretty well triples when your buddy is there too) and then successfully come straight to me twenty-five feet away and load up into the car when released, well I wouldn't have believed it! But it happened! I wasn't paying attention and didn't see the cat, but whenever we're done cleaning my mom's office, they hold a sit-stay on the porch while I go unlock the car and wait until I release them. Was so proud of my crazy girl!!! Guess all those hot dogs and elk liver have been worth it!

I trained Lily "balanced" because I honestly knew nothing about the mechanics of operant conditioning when I got her. I knew before even finally agreeing to take Scout (whom I incidentally ended up with because my friend's mom wanted a dog like Lily and didn't heed my warnings about how much mental and physical stimulation they need daily) that it wouldn't work for her as she would just shut down horribly and she was already so messed up from clueless well meaning previous owners... man, you'd never know Scout was the same dog today if you had vids to compare when I first met her and how she is now! Anywho after learning more, I've basically gone back to square one and totally retrained Lily and guess what we've blown past where we were plataued and are learning all kinds of new fun stuff. Its great! She loves working so much that she offered jumping on top of the crate instead of going in so that Scout could take a turn. I was laughing so hard we went through quite a few rounds of that before having a treat party in the crate.

Lily was smacked around and dumped by a middle aged man before I adopted her. In the hands of someone else she could easily have become a CM case because of her eating disorder from being dumped. Instead she's the dog everyone wants because she is so well behaved.

I know both of Scout's previous owners, I know for sure the one right before me never hit her or anything, but I have no idea about the first one that adopter her as a puppy... just that she's a nice lady who had good intentions. The more I train with her, I very strongly suspect Scout would be pretty dang normal if I'd had her from 8wks on. She's too good a dog despite the awful crap we're working through. We may never trial because of her issues, but she's been the demo dog in reactive dog class. She's also been to the patios of resteraunts downtown and to shakespeare. Not too shabby for a dog I had to crawl into the crate after to clip her leash on when I first met her because she was so terrified of people. Who would be at the very end of the leash to my left because she wasn't comfortable being any closer to me. Who now I trip over sometimes because she's always touching me, lol.

Scout has made me a better dog owner and person for both my dogs. Glad someone's irresponsiblity led her here. She's a lot luckier than most of the dogs born into rescue after those dogs were seized from that crazy hoarder.

Yep, its a rough life

Gasp! However could they coexist without me beating the prey drive out of the sled dog?!?!

 

[monkeys23]

Also I don't get the 'what happens when I don't have treats?' question.

Yes I used treats to train Yoshi. She loves food and is super food motivated. But I only used it to get the actions I wanted. I rarely if ever have treats now unless we are working on something new.

You don't use treats for forever or in every situation.

I know, its crazy how the dogs offer and are happy to do things without treats much more if first trained operant conditioning with treats.

It kinda blows my mind how much more consistent and reliable the trained bechaviors are. In a good way!

 

[Linds]

I posted this article awhile back but there was this quote from it I really really liked and conversations like this remind me of it

"What’s the difference between craft and science? According to Bailey, “Crafts generally develop over thousands of years and tend to preserve what’s old and what has been done before. Information is passed down in secret from master to apprentice, and the apprentice must never question the master.†As a result, when errors are introduced, they tend to be preserved. Another characteristic of a craft is that a change is usually designed only to solve an immediate problem. “Rarely do they look for general principles,†says Bailey.

Science, on the other hand, is a systematic way of asking questions, a process that eventually weeds out mistakes. It’s guided by principles and data, and researcher’s approaches change and are revised as new information comes to light. As a result, science advances quickly compared to craft.

Bailey backs up his description with an example: “For 1,000 years, the Chinese used gunpowder to build small rockets. Then the Turks decided to build bigger ones, which they used on the British. It took them 800 years to develop the technology.†Then, in the 1900s, science and technology stepped in. In 1926, American rocket pioneer Robert Goddard launched the first liquid- propellant rocket. In 1949, less than 25 years later, the U.S. sent a rocket to the moon.

“So it took 800 years of craft to send a six-foot rocket half a mile and less than 50 years of science to send a rocket to the moon"

 

[Dekka]

that is a great quote!

 

[Danefied]

“So it took 800 years of craft to send a six-foot rocket half a mile and less than 50 years of science to send a rocket to the moon"

How cool is that?

Makes you wonder what we’re going to see in dog training in the next 50 years

Of course, you have to “believe†in science first though. Remember I live in a part of the world where people want to teach creationism alongside of evolution as an equal “theoryâ€.

I love this one for scientific theory. For those who say learning theory doesn’t apply to their dog:

 

[Barbara!]

RubyGirl, when talking about positive reinforcement versus punishment, you referred to criminals and humans in your rebuttal analogy. Let me do the same thing, with three different situations, so maybe you can see from different perspectives.

My dog friend attended a seminar last year (some members here may have gone) where they tested the effects of positive reinforcement versus punishment on a person. They were attempting to get the person to perform a certain action, but they weren't using the correct word for said action, so that the person had to figure it out on her own. For example, if they wanted her to "sit", they would say "banana". In the first test, they shocked her whenever she did not get the behavior correct. She eventually found the correct behavior, and she knew she found it when they did not shock her. In the next test, they rewarded her with $1 every time she got the behavior correct. In this test, she moved much quicker, and the results much faster than in the previous. Why? Because she was engaged to learn. Instead of fearing not getting it right, and hesitating, she was looking forward to getting it right, and receiving a reward... Which allowed her to engage more of her brain in the exercise and be generally happier about it. This same thing can be transferred over to dogs.

In situation number two, and I reeeeally wish I could find the article so you will just have to take my word on this, a halfway house experimented with positively reinforcing good actions of the criminals in their care. They got a job? They got an extra meal. They volunteered to help with something? They got an extra pillow or blanket for their room. The halfway house noticed a HUGE increase in good behaviors from their inmates. Isn't that awesome? Whereas in a normal halfway house, where they simply punish bad behaviors, all they saw was a decrease in bad behaviors... But not necessarily an increase in GOOD ones. Once again, the same concept can be transferred over to dogs.

In my local area, there is a program at the prison called "A New Leash On Life". You can Google it, I am pretty sure it's a national program. In this program, they teach young inmates how to train dogs with positive reinforcement techniques. They are seeing awesome results with the kids training. Why? Because the kids are learning that you can change bad behaviors with positive outlooks... That even the worst situation can be changed with just a little sunshine, kindness, and respect. It's really a great program.

So... Do you have anything to say back to that?

 

[OwnedByBCs]

One of my favorite trainers, who I am lucky to be good friends with as well, said in her seminar asked the room who was afraid of snakes. I, being absolutely terrified of snakes and literally panic when I'm in the same room as a snake, raised my hand along with 20 or so other people. We were all asked to go to the head of the class and a man walked in with a huge snake around his neck and walked right up to us. Most of us started getting very nervous and more and more freaked out as he got close. She said "In this exercise we're demonstrating the "flooding" theory. These people who are terrified of snakes have no option but to sit here and deal with a giant snake being about a foot away from them, because if they started to run away I would correct all of them." (I forgot to mention that we had shock collars on our wrists). Then, after a really horrible 5 or so minutes, the snake guy left and we all started relaxing again. Then, she said "Ok, now we're going to bring the snake back out, but this time, he is going to be 10 feet away from you, and the second he enters the room I will give each of you a dollar." After that, we played human BAT (behavior adjustment training) with the snake. The guy would bring it in, initially stopped at 10 feet away and then left again, then each time would get a foot closer until he was a foot away from us again. At that point we were like "Hey... bring that snake back in!" LOL. We wanted our dollar, so we dealt with the presence of something that really freaked us out. And, it was very clear to us that our "trainer" (the lady giving the seminar) was in control of the situation, realized we were scared, and handled it in a way that would lower our cortisol levels instead of increasing them.

Here is my question: Do you want your dog to respect you because you demanded it, or because you earned it?

 

[Beanie]

She's admitted to making this account after being banned on her other where she said she enjoys trolling the forums. She personally attacked Sara about a dog she recently lost, when Sara wasn't even in the thread.

Surely at least attacking Sara is a breech of the forum rules.

What I'm really curious about is how two long time members get a public scolding in a thread by a mod with a threat that if either posts in the thread again they'll be banned, and yet this is allowed to continue with simply a "if you don't like what people are saying, use the ignore function."

 

[crazedACD]

I love the responses from the R+ group...calm, rational, citing anecdotal evidence, showing tolerance. And then the positive punishment person...swearing around the censors, insulting, coming across as yelling, getting worked up. Haha..very telling.

 

[Flyinsbt]

Actually I totally agree with all of this. I do think we have been approaching the argument from the “wrong†angle. And I’m including myself here!

The reality is, most people could care less about a snazzy obedience routine or solid contacts on the agility field. That’s meaningless to them. They just want a dog who doesn’t bother them. Who doesn’t pull on the leash or pee in the house or bark at the neighbor getting his mail. We keep showing all these amazing things dogs can do with clicker training and 95% of the dog owning world says “and?â€

I’ll never forget doing a demo with Bates at a fair that was not dog related, just general lifestyle related. We did a rally demo, a kids and dog safety demo, some fun tricks, then while I was helping Sue collect our stuff off the stage, I put him in a down stay. What did people comment on all day? The down stay. THAT was what impressed them, that I told him to lay down and stay and he did. Not that he held a stick of string cheese in his mouth without eating it. Nope, the down stay. If that doesn’t tell you something....

People want PRACTICAL advice for every day issues and we need to be able to recognize that and give them that in a user-friendly format. Hell, half of them don’t seek out a trainer until they’re at the point that they don’t even like the dog anymore. Telling them that this way is “nicer†is meaningless. They just want a solution and they don’t really care if the dog likes it or not.
We need to be talking in terms of effective and easy as opposed to dog friendly and science based.

I very much agree with that. I'm proud of the titles my dogs have earned, and the cute tricks they know. I do very much believe that the ability of positive training to allow teams to successfully compete in dog sports proves that they are effective, because honestly, being asked to perform a series of behaviors in a highly distracting environment, without reward, is more than most pet dogs will ever be tested. But, I know that people don't really see it that way. To most people, the titles are meaningless. And I'm quite the offender in terms of not having particularly well-behaved dogs because I don't care much about rowdy behaviors.

And yes, stays impress the crap out of people! As do things as simple as sitting on command. I had someone tell me how well-trained my dog was once, in line at Petsmart, after I told the dog to sit about 6 times. I was thinking my dog was being a brat because I had to keep requesting the sit; apparently, this person was impressed that the dog sat every time.

Aside from the effectiveness of +R training, the other thing that it doesn't hurt to point out is how much safer it is. I have a friend who is a dog trainer and got a call from someone who had a Great Dane which was hanging out on the owner's bed, growling at her. The owner thought she was supposed to try to physically dominate the dog, because that's what CM does. Something like that could have gotten the owner killed, fortunately, she was able to be reached by my friend's +R spiel and the situation salvaged.

I do think the biggest issue with trying to get through to people, though, is that CM has a TV show, so that automatically makes him gold in some people's eyes. And his show is deliberately slanted for drama, because that's what people enjoy. They pick dogs who aren't too dangerous, but will put on a good show, and then we are spun a fairy tale about how CM works with "red zone" cases that nobody else will touch. Which isn't true, the dogs he works with aren't all that dangerous, and real dog trainers work with much scarier cases. But real dog trainers do so carefully, because drama won't help the dogs' rehabilitation, and that doesn't make for interesting TV.

 

[Flyinsbt]

Just to add, this video of my friend training a meaningless trick should impress the skeptics. Probably doesn't, but it should.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V8BD4MZb56A

Notice the behavior of the dogs waiting their turn to earn treats.

 

[Shai]

I think positive trainers are lumped in with sport and tricks way too much. They are dismissed by the people who say "I just want a good dog." "This is REAL world training" etc.

My favorite story for this was when I picked up my quail earlier this year. There's my retrieving-addicted, birds-must-be-in-my-mouth retriever who was, of all horrid things, taught to stay via clicker being left in an out-of-sight sit-stay in the driveway of the backwood podink little farm with scrawny cats flitting by, turkeys wandering about, and of all the things in the world, EMU tearing around like giant brainless godzillas in a pen just to the side.

As I talk to the farmer from inside the barn where I can see Mira through a dirty window but she cannot see me.

Guy didn't want Big Black Dog in his barn. I didn't want to go into the barn for the chicks without said Big Black Dog nearby. Sit stay was an unspoken compromise (big barn door was open).

Eyes big as saucers and shaking with the sheer desire to fill her mouth with something, anything, Da Retrieverbrain didn't so much as move a paw (toes dug into the gravel driveway in determination) til I got back then stayed at my heel all the way back to the car. Pretty sure the farmer was shocked there wasn't bloody turkey carnage on his driveway when we stepped back out of the barn. The whole experience was just utterly bizarre.

And for the record I had neither treat nor toy nor clicker on me and she well knew it.

 

[AdrianneIsabel]

Today people were astounded by Backups ability to hold a down and focus on me at the dock amongst a huge crowd and tv crew. I was amazed as well. LOL, if only he had a start line in agility.

 

[Flyinsbt]

Today people were astounded by Backups ability to hold a down and focus on me at the dock amongst a huge crowd and tv crew. I was amazed as well. LOL, if only he had a start line in agility.

:lol-sign: Stays are so situational. Tess doesn't have a start line. We struggled with it for years, I wasn't consistent so neither was she. I finally decided it wasn't fair to her, and that I didn't want our last run together to be one where we struggled over a start line. Since you never know when your last run is going to be, we stopped struggling, and I started running with her. She has a freakin' CD, but no start line.

Pirate has a start line, though.

 

[puppydog]

Just ignore Rubygirl. She is quite clearly schitzophrenic, paranoid and bipolar. You see, she smokes the MJ so she IS. Just like all cockers have rage.

See, its all here in the Wiki article.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Effects_of_cannabis

 

[AdrianneIsabel]

I bet that's why cockers have rage syndrome, poor little pot heads.

 

[Shai]

:lol-sign: Stays are so situational. Tess doesn't have a start line. We struggled with it for years, I wasn't consistent so neither was she. I finally decided it wasn't fair to her, and that I didn't want our last run together to be one where we struggled over a start line. Since you never know when your last run is going to be, we stopped struggling, and I started running with her. She has a freakin' CD, but no start line.

Pirate has a start line, though.

Yep Webby doesn't do startline stays either. He WILL do them as in if I tell him to stay and I lead out I can trust that he will remain in place but it worries him and that worry slows down his run. So we only do lateral leadouts or no leadouts because then he gets all pumped up and runs hard.

We got the stay when it counts. The real world one. But especially with Webby, I pick my battles when it comes to games

 

[Emily]

I bet that's why cockers have rage syndrome, poor little pot heads.

Yesterday Macky AND Ollie got the rage... on their tennis balls. LOL

Keeva has a special kind of rage syndrome, it's called being a Corgi.

 

[PWCorgi]

Keeva has a special kind of rage syndrome, it's called being a Corgi.

:rofl1::rofl1::rofl1:

:hail:

 

[Emily]

These dogs are nothing if not entertaining!