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Must be Titled
- Thread starter GSDlover_4ever
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I think that when it comes to show dogs, titles are very important. How else can you prove that a dog is good at showing? With working dogs, as long as the dog is a genuine, good working dog and not just "from working lines", I don't think it's so important. It's pretty simple to tell a real working dog from one that isn't.
You see that a lot where I live. This is ranching country, and livestock guardian dogs and herding dogs are extremely popular. The majority of them are untitled, but that doesn't make a difference in their ability.
You see that a lot where I live. This is ranching country, and livestock guardian dogs and herding dogs are extremely popular. The majority of them are untitled, but that doesn't make a difference in their ability.
There are many ways to tell. Ask to see the online registry database. My dog doesn't have her championship, but if you look at the online database or the Belgian statistic page for 2005, you'll see that she was the #19 Belgian in Canada last year (from just one show), beating 25 dogs and earning a total of 5 points (I said 4 before, but it's five lol).
I hate how everyone says titles should be on a dog to "PROVE" things. While titles are great, they show you are involved with your dog and that your dog gets out there...They don't prove alot. My dog was a total freak for her CGN and she passed. Championships prove nothing unless it is a common breed and an Am CH rather than a Can CH. Some of the ugliest dogs I know are champions. Several people hosting herding instinct certifications will certify a dog that chases. Some dogs are entered in hundreds of trials before they actually earn a title.
Like I've said a hundred times before -- they only way to "prove" that the dog is a good working/show dog is to see it in action yourself and/or talk to several people who know the dog. Titles are easier to earn than most people think.
I hate how everyone says titles should be on a dog to "PROVE" things. While titles are great, they show you are involved with your dog and that your dog gets out there...They don't prove alot. My dog was a total freak for her CGN and she passed. Championships prove nothing unless it is a common breed and an Am CH rather than a Can CH. Some of the ugliest dogs I know are champions. Several people hosting herding instinct certifications will certify a dog that chases. Some dogs are entered in hundreds of trials before they actually earn a title.
Like I've said a hundred times before -- they only way to "prove" that the dog is a good working/show dog is to see it in action yourself and/or talk to several people who know the dog. Titles are easier to earn than most people think.
B
That is only true with rare breeds. Yes, it is easier for a rare breed dog to earn a championship titles than, say, a golden retriever. But what you need to do to make up for the lack of competition is go farther than earning the dogs championship title. Go to some more well known shows where the competition is harder. That is when you will really test your dog out.
I agree that it's much easier with rare breeds, but even common breeds that aren't the best looking can get their Canadian Championship. I refrain from saying American championship because it IS hard for a common breed to get an American championship. In Canada, you don't need majors. All you need is ten points. Shelties are VERY common in the showring, and I personally know one that isn't a very good example of the breed --- she has been entered in atleast 20 or 30 shows within the past two years. She doesn't earn a point in most of them, but occasionally there aren't alot of females and she'll take Winners Bitch, giving her a point or two. In two years of showing with many many shows, she has managed to get 8 points -- only needs two more, and she'll ger her Canadian Championship. She's never been group placed, she's never even taken breed. Does this mean she is a good example of her breed? Alot of dogs will get their Canadian championship in one weekend. Does that make them a good example of their breed?
There is a database on Dogs in Canada -- problem is, you have to be a member. I'm not sure if that means you need to be a CKC member or not. Visa's breeder always just says "I'll check the database for you.." LOL. I've never actually seen it myself.
I've seen statistics pages for several breeds on which dogs are currently in the standings for that year. Usually they are just personal pages so it can take some searching.
There is a database on Dogs in Canada -- problem is, you have to be a member. I'm not sure if that means you need to be a CKC member or not. Visa's breeder always just says "I'll check the database for you.." LOL. I've never actually seen it myself.
I've seen statistics pages for several breeds on which dogs are currently in the standings for that year. Usually they are just personal pages so it can take some searching.
no offense, and i cant think of any way to phrase it but this -
if titles are so easy to earn - how come your bitch is being bred (for the third time i think?) and has no titles? i see she has two certificates (herding instinct, and canine good citizen/neighbor).
if its so easy, why havent you done it?
i agree, i see a lot of excuses. excuses why people dont get them - no time, no money. excuses that they dont mean anything. excuses that people can buy titles, that my bitch could do this, my dog could do that, if only this, if if if if if.
i dont buy breeding based on a whole slew of what if's, if only's, and i could if i really wanted to's.
if titles are so easy to earn - how come your bitch is being bred (for the third time i think?) and has no titles? i see she has two certificates (herding instinct, and canine good citizen/neighbor).
if its so easy, why havent you done it?
i agree, i see a lot of excuses. excuses why people dont get them - no time, no money. excuses that they dont mean anything. excuses that people can buy titles, that my bitch could do this, my dog could do that, if only this, if if if if if.
i dont buy breeding based on a whole slew of what if's, if only's, and i could if i really wanted to's.
"if titles are so easy to earn - how come your bitch is being bred (for the third time i think?) and has no titles? i see she has two certificates (herding instinct, and canine good citizen/neighbor)."
Jordan can answer this, but I'll help...
Visa has not been bred three times. This is her first breeding, she was simply bred 3 times in one heat. Multiple breedings in one heat is not uncommon at all.
Visa has earned points in show, made group placings as well as BOBs, and is near her championship. She has also competed in Obedience & Agility.
I can't speak for Visa's Mom, but I feel that it's much more important that Visa is a true all-around dog than simply being a show Champion, or simply having Obedience titles or whatever. Jordan works her butt off exhibiting her dog, as far as I know there is NOOO laziness involved. A perspective buyer should meet the parents of their puppy, as said before, as that is just as important (actually, much more important) as a title. I *think* Visa's breeding is more about timing, and this is the perfect timing for Jordan to raise a healthy litter of pups. It's not like she hasn't done a thing with Visa and is simply making her own assumptions about how nice her structure is, or how well she can peform, or how sound her temperament is. If she made no effort to exhibit Visa, I would totally disapprove, but I think she's a great breeder because she really has done a lot with her girl, and has ensured that the stud has also been proven as worthy of being bred.
Jordan can answer this, but I'll help...
Visa has not been bred three times. This is her first breeding, she was simply bred 3 times in one heat. Multiple breedings in one heat is not uncommon at all.
Visa has earned points in show, made group placings as well as BOBs, and is near her championship. She has also competed in Obedience & Agility.
I can't speak for Visa's Mom, but I feel that it's much more important that Visa is a true all-around dog than simply being a show Champion, or simply having Obedience titles or whatever. Jordan works her butt off exhibiting her dog, as far as I know there is NOOO laziness involved. A perspective buyer should meet the parents of their puppy, as said before, as that is just as important (actually, much more important) as a title. I *think* Visa's breeding is more about timing, and this is the perfect timing for Jordan to raise a healthy litter of pups. It's not like she hasn't done a thing with Visa and is simply making her own assumptions about how nice her structure is, or how well she can peform, or how sound her temperament is. If she made no effort to exhibit Visa, I would totally disapprove, but I think she's a great breeder because she really has done a lot with her girl, and has ensured that the stud has also been proven as worthy of being bred.
she clearly states -
"I'm browsing potential studs for Visa's third litter right now"
no multiple breedings to the same male is not uncommon- but that is not what she says.
her website states she has been in two agility fun matches, and no obedience matches/trials as of yet. she has her HIC and CGN. she has 5 points (how many does canada need for a CH?). She has plans for more agility this year, as well as a tracking test and more herding.
Why the rush? Why not breed her after she has done these things? She's young, there is no rush...
"I'm browsing potential studs for Visa's third litter right now"
no multiple breedings to the same male is not uncommon- but that is not what she says.
her website states she has been in two agility fun matches, and no obedience matches/trials as of yet. she has her HIC and CGN. she has 5 points (how many does canada need for a CH?). She has plans for more agility this year, as well as a tracking test and more herding.
Why the rush? Why not breed her after she has done these things? She's young, there is no rush...
Thanks Erica. 
I'm glad somebody
This is Visa's first litter. HIC and CGN ARE titles. Anything that is placed before/after a name is a title.
The reason she does not have her Can CH yet is simple. While she has been entered in several sanction matches (and placed very well, she is always BOB and group placed), she has only been entered in one point show. She took BOB and a Group 4th, beating 25 dogs and taking a total of five points. After this show, however, she was handled by an abusive handler (who was recently disqualified for kicking one of her clinet's dogs down a hill), and became terrified of shows. We were unable to do point shows after this for fear that she would be disqualified (which would exclude us from all CKC events, and considering I am the treasurer of the district kennel club, that would suck big time). So I have been working my butt off both last year and this year so that she will no longer be afraid to show. She was entered in a show (for today actually) but is still in Alberta being bred, so I handled a different dog instead. There are no more shows she can compete in this year as she is due to have puppies the day after the next one, will have 2 week old puppies the next one, and then won't have her coat back until December. During this time I am going to practice some new training methods to prepare her more for the ring, as well as attend more sanction matches. So she will recieve her CH next year instead of this year.
It isn't a "Well I know she can get it, so what's the point" kind of an excuse. Or a "I don't have the time or money." It's for the welfare of my dog and my breeding program that she is not disqualified for something that she could so easily get on looks and movement alone -- if ring temperment weren't taken in to play, she would be finished. It's like running an agility trial before the dog knows what is expected of it. Visa loved shows before that handler came along. A rarity in a Belgian. I want to bring that back, I want to keep and maintain it. I didn't show her again ast year just like I wouldn't throw a dog in a pool when it can't swim.
And as another example of an ugly dog getting points --- the dog I handled today. She's skin and bones (supposed to have tight skin over muscle and a nice layer of fat), easty-westy (one of her legs is longer than the other which doesn't help), has a hook tail that she carries over her back (it's supposed to be straight down, carried half way when moving) , her planes are completely uneven and non-parellel, her eyes are round (supposed to be almond), her ears are too big, she has a cowlick on her nose, her fur is thick on her withers and rear, but is practically bald inbetween, she has a sparse, wavy coat (supposed to be straight), she has 40 teeth (supposed to have 42)...And she has points towards her CH, and will be finished within a couple of years.
A dog not having a championship is not the end of the world, and having a championship does not mean your dog is a good example of it's breed. If you KNOW the breed well enough, you should be able to tell by looking at it whether or not it's show material. If you don't maybe you should research the breed a bit more and actually consider other things, like health and temperment before buying a certain breed rather than relying on championships alone. I know that my dog is a good example of what the breed should look like, breeders know my dog is a good example of what a Belgian should look like, and I will enter her in another show when I feel she is ready, not just because "oh my god she is being bred so obviously she needs to have her CH." It's a good credential, especially when buying from a breeder out of your area, but it isn't an accurate :know-all" of how a dog truly looks and behaves.
I'm glad somebodyThis is Visa's first litter. HIC and CGN ARE titles. Anything that is placed before/after a name is a title.
The reason she does not have her Can CH yet is simple. While she has been entered in several sanction matches (and placed very well, she is always BOB and group placed), she has only been entered in one point show. She took BOB and a Group 4th, beating 25 dogs and taking a total of five points. After this show, however, she was handled by an abusive handler (who was recently disqualified for kicking one of her clinet's dogs down a hill), and became terrified of shows. We were unable to do point shows after this for fear that she would be disqualified (which would exclude us from all CKC events, and considering I am the treasurer of the district kennel club, that would suck big time). So I have been working my butt off both last year and this year so that she will no longer be afraid to show. She was entered in a show (for today actually) but is still in Alberta being bred, so I handled a different dog instead. There are no more shows she can compete in this year as she is due to have puppies the day after the next one, will have 2 week old puppies the next one, and then won't have her coat back until December. During this time I am going to practice some new training methods to prepare her more for the ring, as well as attend more sanction matches. So she will recieve her CH next year instead of this year.
It isn't a "Well I know she can get it, so what's the point" kind of an excuse. Or a "I don't have the time or money." It's for the welfare of my dog and my breeding program that she is not disqualified for something that she could so easily get on looks and movement alone -- if ring temperment weren't taken in to play, she would be finished. It's like running an agility trial before the dog knows what is expected of it. Visa loved shows before that handler came along. A rarity in a Belgian. I want to bring that back, I want to keep and maintain it. I didn't show her again ast year just like I wouldn't throw a dog in a pool when it can't swim.
And as another example of an ugly dog getting points --- the dog I handled today. She's skin and bones (supposed to have tight skin over muscle and a nice layer of fat), easty-westy (one of her legs is longer than the other which doesn't help), has a hook tail that she carries over her back (it's supposed to be straight down, carried half way when moving) , her planes are completely uneven and non-parellel, her eyes are round (supposed to be almond), her ears are too big, she has a cowlick on her nose, her fur is thick on her withers and rear, but is practically bald inbetween, she has a sparse, wavy coat (supposed to be straight), she has 40 teeth (supposed to have 42)...And she has points towards her CH, and will be finished within a couple of years.
A dog not having a championship is not the end of the world, and having a championship does not mean your dog is a good example of it's breed. If you KNOW the breed well enough, you should be able to tell by looking at it whether or not it's show material. If you don't maybe you should research the breed a bit more and actually consider other things, like health and temperment before buying a certain breed rather than relying on championships alone. I know that my dog is a good example of what the breed should look like, breeders know my dog is a good example of what a Belgian should look like, and I will enter her in another show when I feel she is ready, not just because "oh my god she is being bred so obviously she needs to have her CH." It's a good credential, especially when buying from a breeder out of your area, but it isn't an accurate :know-all" of how a dog truly looks and behaves.
Her third litter won't be done for another three years.
I have already explained "the rush." This is not my breeding. This is Visa's breeder's breeding. Visa is NOT my dog, she is co-owned and won't be signed in to my name until after her first litter is born (in September).
Oh,and when looking at my site, remember that it's not updated LOL. I can't do any of the shows we have listed for this year. Puppy reasons, and I lost my ride for the show on the island. But, like I said, I learned some new techniques to have her ready for the ring again, and I'd like to try them out before going at 'er.
I have already explained "the rush." This is not my breeding. This is Visa's breeder's breeding. Visa is NOT my dog, she is co-owned and won't be signed in to my name until after her first litter is born (in September).
Oh,and when looking at my site, remember that it's not updated LOL. I can't do any of the shows we have listed for this year. Puppy reasons, and I lost my ride for the show on the island. But, like I said, I learned some new techniques to have her ready for the ring again, and I'd like to try them out before going at 'er.
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Hmm... Ok I have a few excuses as to why some dogs dont have titles. One is too busy finding people who have been kidnapped or lost. The other one, halfway around the world is finding people buried under the snow. One is patroling the streets to keep YOUR streets safe. The other is protective the livestock from other predators. One is too busy demoing all over the world. I can keep going all day. Everything is not all cut and dry as you think. If you want to call them excuses then so be it, but everyone situation is is different.
WolfSoul, I agree with everything you said.
WolfSoul, I agree with everything you said.
Just because a dog can do it's job, does not make it breeding worthy (IMO). So my ACD can herd and he excell's at schutzhund so should I breed him just because of that? No, he needs a full heath check first, the breeder already does PRA and BAER before her pups leave for new homes but he still would need his hips and elbows done at the age of two. I personally have no problem with a dog being bred if it has strong lines and has had all the right health tests done. *just my two cents*