Must be Titled

[moe]

titles dont play a big part in my opinion of a dog, reason for this here in the UK we are ONLY this year able to make a dog in my breed up to CH as CC's have only this year been on offer within my breed working titles are also not on offer although I beleive the breed club is trying to make it possible in the future, there are many dogs that could in real terms be CH's but due to red tape its not possible for them to become it yet, maybe in the future once CC's have been on offer for some time and CH's become the norm, I will have a different view, until then I will continue looking at the actual dogs in question not their titles, if they have got ALL the health clearances, if the temperment is correct for the breed, if they show well, and if they also work well, if they have produced well in the past etc, these are at the moment my concern.

Mo

 

[doberkim]

you all seem to have a comprehension problem, or seem to be unable to actuallY READ what people have said.

wolfsoul, not having a canadian CH doesn't excuse you from having no titles whatsoever, including performance ones.

the CGC/CGN is NOT a title - it is a certification. the AKC/CKC are clear on this.
The HIC is exactly that - a herding instinct certification.

Just being able to put it behind the name does not mean it's a title. TDI stuff is also not a title, it is a certification.

GSDlover, again, you haven't read anything. Is wolfsoul doing these things with her dog that prevent her from titling her before breeding?

the MAJORITY OF DOGS in north america are doing NOTHING of the sort that would prevent them from being titled before reproducing.

 

[whatszmatter]

Thanks Erica. I'm glad somebody


This is Visa's first litter. HIC and CGN ARE titles. Anything that is placed before/after a name is a title.

I don't really want to get into this too much, BUT, HIC and CGN are most defineatly NOT nor ever will be considered TITLES. They are certificates, nothing more. I'm not trying to take anything away from anyone that has gottent these certificates, but to say they PROVE anything about the breedability of your dog or that they have titles is completely bogus.

and HIC is nothing more than a dog showing interest in livestock, there is NO working, there is not intensity needed to be shown, there is nothing but interest that needs to be shown, that's it nothing more. Therefore it is not much of a test and will never be considered a title.

a CGC/CGN is also just a certificate. It is fun for people to do and shows that you do something besides watch your dog eat and sleep. Again, nothing is being tested in any real sort of way. Small temperment tests with bicycles and people, but but there are no real tests being done, the dogs intensity to herd, to work all day, etc are not tested any in sort of way whatsoever.

To call these two very basic introductory fun things for people to do with their dogs a title is a slap in the face to everyone that has put in the time and dedication to earn a title with their dog.

your dog may or may not be able to work, i don't know i've never seen it, but please do not confuse these certificates with actual titles, they are thousands of miles apart.

 

[wolfsoul]

wolfsoul, not having a canadian CH doesn't excuse you from having no titles whatsoever, including performance ones.

I do not need to be excused for anything --- like I said before, this is NOT my litter. Visa will not be bred under MY name until the year after next year, by which time she will have show, agility, tracking, and obedience titles, and since we are bringing flyball, rally-o, flying disc, and other sports to the district through the kennel club, she will probably be titled in those as well. But, like I said before --- I don't need titles to "prove" anything. If you want to see the working ability and drive of a dog, go look at the dog yourself. All a title does is say that your dog has competed in a sport. It doesn't say it's good at it. If you are truly interested in a breed you will have joined a discussion group about them or atleast talked to several breeders. Basically any breeder in my breed's main discussion group knows about my dog (her line, temperment, working ability, health, etc). Many of them have met my dog. The same will go for any other dog.

to say they PROVE anything about the breedability of your dog or that they have titles is completely bogus.

Once AGAIN, titles or "certificications" DO NOT PROVE the breedability of a dog, and by saying that I'M saying that about my own dog is completely insane, as I've been fighting against using titles as an accurate way of determining a dog's breedability this entire thread. Titles do not make your dog breedable. Just because my dog has her HIC and CGN does not make her breedable. The only thing that makes your dog breedable is health, temperment, working ability, and conformation. Titles do not PROVE that your dog has good health, temperment, working ability, and conformation. Nowhere in this thread am I saying that titles are a bad thing. Titles are a great thing for a breeding dog to have. It shows that the breeder is involved with his/her dog. But it does not "prove" anything, and nothing should HAVE to be proved -- if you get your information from an accurate source, you will know whether or not the dog has good health, temperment, working ability, and conformation. Titles should not be relied on for that.

 

[whatszmatter]

so you're going to just pick the part that isn't worded very carefully and say I was trying to say that you said since you had a HIC and CGN that proved your dogs breedability??? I guess you missed the whole point in the thread that was having HIC or CGN certificates are not titles that you claim them to be.

you seemed to put them out there as if you had achieved titles with your dog or you're co-owned dog, it doesn't matter. I was just saying they aren't titles

 

[wolfsoul]

Sorry if I misunderstood -- it's just that you said "to say they PROVE anything" as if I had said it.

I guess I just get so annoyed the thought of people thinking that titles prove anything because I know or know of soooo many breeders whose dogs look AWESOME on their website. Their dogs have their CH and multiple titles, they do all these different working things and sports, and so people think they are a good breeder. But I know these breeders are not good. I know that alot of them abuse their dogs, I know alot of them are producing unhealthy dogs, some of them are negligent, some of them have aggressive dogs, etc. I have a million horror stories about breeders that people think are great. I used to think titles proved something. But when I got into the dog world and I met the breeders and I met their dogs and what they were producing, I realised that I was very very wrong. Titles don't tell you that a breeder will let their puppies starve to death when they are born with a cleft palate. So sorry if I am very defensive -- I have just seen so much bad happen in my relatively short amount of time in the dog world, and alot of it revolves around perfectly titled dogs.

 

[GSDlover_4ever]

Sorry if I misunderstood -- it's just that you said "to say they PROVE anything" as if I had said it.

I guess I just get so annoyed the thought of people thinking that titles prove anything because I know or know of soooo many breeders whose dogs look AWESOME on their website. Their dogs have their CH and multiple titles, they do all these different working things and sports, and so people think they are a good breeder. But I know these breeders are not good. I know that alot of them abuse their dogs, I know alot of them are producing unhealthy dogs, some of them are negligent, some of them have aggressive dogs, etc. I have a million horror stories about breeders that people think are great. I used to think titles proved something. But when I got into the dog world and I met the breeders and I met their dogs and what they were producing, I realised that I was very very wrong. Titles don't tell you that a breeder will let their puppies starve to death when they are born with a cleft palate. So sorry if I am very defensive -- I have just seen so much bad happen in my relatively short amount of time in the dog world, and alot of it revolves around perfectly titled dogs.

Very true!!! I think titles bring MORE stress and abuse into the dog world. People get so wound up about "show dogs" that they get "upset" when they have one born with a diformity and deem them not worthy of life and abuse them. Competition brings out the worse of people.

 

[JFrick]

Very true!!! I think titles bring MORE stress and abuse into thr dog world. People get so wound up about "sho dogs" that they get "upset" when they have one born with a diformity and deem them not worthy of life and abuse them. Competition brings out the worse of people.

Competition also brings out greed....

 

[Aussie Red]

Titles are paper. I have seen and known " reputible Breeders " too and believe me what goes on behind the scenes is sick. Titled animals end up abused just as much and do end up in shelters too! Back in the Eighties I paid well for a dog $ 1500.00 , parents both had papers enough to cover the wall. Akc champions. Health tested , genetic etc.
Paid a trainer to work with me and the pup for two years. Although the animal was extremely loving and a great pet that was it . He just did not get the fact he needed to follow in parents footsteps. At three years of age found to have seizures and other health issues so my thought is it just happens.
People have petigrees too .... does not mean they are perfect.

 

[AmberwayGSD]

In my opinion a dog should have a title prior to breeding.My Pups Dam has her HGH and her Sire has A SchH 1.My dog will be doing SchH and German Shows.Pretty much any breed can get a HIC,to me it is not a title same as cgn or cgc.

 

[fillyone]

I would like to say that the titles I spoke of in my reply are working/performance titles and not just conformation titles.

 

[Julie]

I am not speaking to anyone specific, but I see alot of emphasis being put on showing, titles, pedigree, especially titles. And degrading an accomplishment like a certificate as if it is a worthless piece of $hit.

Well I know first hand the work and training it takes to get a "certified" dog. Rocket is certified with the WVPCA, she is certified in tracking, narcotic detection, apprehension, and handler protection. She went through rigorous training and testing to qualify as a k9 patrol dog, yet she has NO titles.......hmmmmmmmm. AKC doesn't recognize her training or accomplishments....but I sure do!!

She cost the county more money than you would care to guess. But in the short time she has been on patrol, she has more than paid for herself in drugs off the streets, and money that was confiscated from drug related deals. She has found drugs in the homes of those on "home confinement", and she has given more demonstrations to fire companies, schools, organizations, and other public service personnel, so they can be aware of the signs of drug abuse.

Not to mention she has aided my husband on her own "decision" by jumping out of the window to help subdue a suspect. She has been awarded with a letter of recognition from the sheriff of their dept.

So........ If we decide to breed her to a suitable sire one day.......I will let you all know.........and I hope I don't get any $hit from my friends here at Chaz. I will definately keep you updated.

 

[wolfsoul]

I am with you Julie --- I often have days when my medication doesn't work well, and I need Visa to be my therapy dog. She goes into public with me and she alerts me as to when I may have an episode, she comforts me if I have an attack, she directs me if I'm too dizzy to see where I'm going. She does this on her own instinct -- it's not something I trained her to do. And she isn't titled for it. I plan to donate future puppies of her's to the assistance dog program here.

 

[GSDlover_4ever]

I totally agree with you Julie. Rocket along with other working dogs dont have time to get titles. I prefer to actually see a dog WORK than a few titles behind a name. Most of the dogs in the K9 units have no titles and are bred to more dogs with no titles. But they sure as hell get there job done.

Hondo's father has NO titles what-so-ever. But if you ever saw him work ( and man, does he have drive) you would see a TRUE working dog.

 

[GSDlover_4ever]

I am with you Julie --- I often have days when my medication doesn't work well, and I need Visa to be my therapy dog. She goes into public with me and she alerts me as to when I may have an episode, she comforts me if I have an attack, she directs me if I'm too dizzy to see where I'm going. She does this on her own instinct -- it's not something I trained her to do. And she isn't titled for it. I plan to donate future puppies of her's to the assistance dog program here.

She is your SERVICE dog, not therapy. Therapy dogs are not allowed everywhere and if you make the mistake and say she is a therapy dog then they can turn you away. But it is against the law and against the disabilities act to turn away a service animal. It also states that a dog only needs to service you in at least ONE task for you ( for medical or physical reasons), and is under control and acts appropriately in public. I am not trying to offend you, just FYI.

 

[LizzieCollie]

sorry to add in my uneducated two cents but I am also a believer that titles are not as important as to what the dog can DO. I am a strong believer that conformation means practically nothing. Maybe in the old days it did but now there are too many judges that care only for pedigree. Even if the dog is a horrible example of the breed they will only think 'hey this dog has some awsome champions in his/her background'

I saw a Poodle at a dog show when I was younger whos handler had hold the dogs muzzle shut when the judge examined him/her because if not that dog would have torn the judge to bits. Do you think the judge cared? No probably because of a great pedigree that dog placed in the top 3. I have seen bully breeds that will smack a judge with their tail because they are so happy to be in there and arent they supposed to be vicious (not)?

 

[ihartgonzo]

I saw a Poodle at a dog show when I was younger whos handler had hold the dogs muzzle shut when the judge examined him/her because if not that dog would have torn the judge to bits. Do you think the judge cared? No probably because of a great pedigree that dog placed in the top 3. I have seen bully breeds that will smack a judge with their tail because they are so happy to be in there and arent they supposed to be vicious (not)?

The rules of conformation include disqualifying vicious/aggressive dogs, period. To answer the questions for both the Poodle and bully breeds.

Honestly, just think about conformation all-together. If there was no shows to judge conformation of dogs... where would dogs be? Standards are created to keep the whole breed intact, as far as form goes, and part of the biggest differentiators between every breed is their appearance, build, gate, etc. As much as working people hate to admit it, part of what makes even a working dog perform their tasks IS the way they are built. Border Collies could not perform their job if they had stubby legs, or short muzzles, or stocky build, and their standard completely reflects that. Biased judges might be a problem, but that does not make showing completely useless at all. I've never encountered what I felt was a biased judge, and I have been to several shows in the past 2 years. I think there would be a MUCH bigger "bias" issue if every owner was left to judge their own dog's conformation - OF COURSE we all think our dogs are beautiful, but only dogs that are excellent & proven physical/mental/working examples of the breed need to be bred.

 

[wolfsoul]

I have emailed the CKC and they recognise CGN as a title.

 

[sportingdogs]

sorry to add in my uneducated two cents but I am also a believer that titles are not as important as to what the dog can DO. I am a strong believer that conformation means practically nothing. Maybe in the old days it did but now there are too many judges that care only for pedigree. Even if the dog is a horrible example of the breed they will only think 'hey this dog has some awsome champions in his/her background'

LizzieCollie, conformation means "practically, well a LOT!" sorry! Form follows function and the form needs to be correct in order to function. Yes, the dog should be able to do its job, but I also want it looking like its breed while doing it! Don't you?? Otherwise, why have breeds? Now, where do you get this? "Maybe in the old days it did but now there are too many judges that care only for pedigree."....Umm, when entering the show ring, you do not hand the judge a copy of your dog's pedigree to peruse < g > The judge rarely if ever knows the pedigree of the dog he is examining. No self-respecting judge would put up a "horrible example of the breed" because of "some awsome [sic] champions in his/her background." Please, it REALLY IRKS me when posters come up with this stuff...do you make this stuff up as you go along? Really now.

I saw a Poodle at a dog show when I was younger whos handler had hold the dogs muzzle shut when the judge examined him/her because if not that dog would have torn the judge to bits. Do you think the judge cared? No probably because of a great pedigree that dog placed in the top 3. I have seen bully breeds that will smack a judge with their tail because they are so happy to be in there and arent they supposed to be vicious (not)?

Now how do you know this? I BET what you were actually seeing was the handler holding the dog's head still...we often will hold the head with one thumb at the muzzle, the opposing fingers at the jawline to keep the dog standing how we want. Not everyone holds the dog's head in this way and perhaps this is what you saw this one handler doing. Of course the judge didn't care! < g > And how would the judge have known the pedigree? No, bully breeds are not supposed to be "vicious".

People, please, if you are going to post, speak of that which you actually know something about. Everyone is entitled to one's opinion, but I hate when that opinion is stated as fact; it is annoying and haughty. IMO < g >

 

[whatszmatter]

I have emailed the CKC and they recognise CGN as a title.

I always thought they were a little stricter in canada with titles and dog related things, but I guess not. The CGN is the AKC CGC. In fact the CGC was what was given out in Canada till the CKC started offering the CGN.

Its a program taken right from the CKC website--http://www.ckc.ca/en/Default.aspx?tabid=91

Objective:

To identify and reward responsible, caring owners and their canine partners throughout Canada.
To ensure that one of our most favoured companions, the dog, is accepted as a valued member of our communities right across the country. Canine Good Neighbours can be counted on to present good manners at home, in public places and in the presence of other dogs.
What?

The test is non-competitive and allows dog and handler to demonstrate confidence and control in 12 steps. It assesses the handler and dog's relationship, together with the handler's ability to control the dog. Dogs are evaluated on their ability to perform basic exercises as well as their ability to demonstrate good manners in everyday situations.
Why?

The training program embraces both purebred and mixed-breed dogs and is fun, rewarding, and useful. It encourages owners to have a better and richer relationship with their dogs. The program also enhances community awareness of responsible dog ownership and the numerous benefits associated with dog ownership.
The Canadian Kennel Club encourages all dog owners to participate in the program, ensuring that our beloved canines are welcome and respected members of our communities.

Its is the same as the AKC's CGC program and the AKC explicitly states that is is a certificate, NOT a title

from the AKC website----
http://www.akc.org/events/cgc/index.cfm

Started in 1989, CGC is a certification program that is designed to reward dogs who have good manners at home and in the community. The Canine Good Citizen Program is a two-part program that stresses responsible pet ownership for owners and basic good manners for dogs. All dogs who pass the 10-step CGC test may receive a certificate from the American Kennel Club.

Whomever emailed you back from the CKC apparently doesn't know the difference between a title and a certificate