I agree , Julie, that is where the breeder enters ...NO ONE realizes how much time some of us take with litters to check and socialize.! Luckily I never had an aggressive Golden .... had I not worked from day one with a " cranky" pup, who knows. It's these pups... no matter what background , titles etc. that end up in shelters. It's what done from whelping on that form their future ,unless they come from bad breeding. I can only talk Golden Retriever.
Must be Titled
- Thread starter GSDlover_4ever
- Start date
About the HIC, no it does not require the dog to naturally work livestock, but a dog that only wants to "chase" and will not begin to circle, eye, and stalk won't pass with any reputable tester. A few Aussies that we watched were major chasers and showed zero eye or methodical behavior, and they did not pass because of it. If the qualifications were chasing, a freakin Husky could pass! 
hehe
hehe
W
well, you better believe it, there are a whole list of certificates on there that most defineatly are NOT titles to name a few: AD, BH, WH, HIC, CGN
and to answer the other questions, the difference between a certificate and a title is the amount of work involved and the amount of testing involved. Certificates usually only involve the most basic exercises and only test the most basic functions of a dog.
A title on the other hand shows much more intensity by the dog, much more control by the handler and the tests are much more involved. They actually will test a dog in certain situations.
If that is in fact a list of recognised "titles" by the CKC they are the only club in the world that will call a CGN, AD, BH, Wh etc., a title. The FIC, AKC etc, only see them as basic certificates, a stepping stone to obtaining a real working title.
believe what you will, i'm out
and to answer the other questions, the difference between a certificate and a title is the amount of work involved and the amount of testing involved. Certificates usually only involve the most basic exercises and only test the most basic functions of a dog.
A title on the other hand shows much more intensity by the dog, much more control by the handler and the tests are much more involved. They actually will test a dog in certain situations.
If that is in fact a list of recognised "titles" by the CKC they are the only club in the world that will call a CGN, AD, BH, Wh etc., a title. The FIC, AKC etc, only see them as basic certificates, a stepping stone to obtaining a real working title.
believe what you will, i'm out
R
I disagree that AD, BH and WH are not titles.
The AD is a 12 mile endurance test that requires extensive conditioning and training to pass.
The BH is an obedience and temperament test that is a higher level than the CD title, IMO.
And the WH requires a dog to guard objects.
I do agree that CGC (or CGN) and HIC are certificates, along with the ATTS TT.
The AD is a 12 mile endurance test that requires extensive conditioning and training to pass.
The BH is an obedience and temperament test that is a higher level than the CD title, IMO.
And the WH requires a dog to guard objects.
I do agree that CGC (or CGN) and HIC are certificates, along with the ATTS TT.
R
Actually AD could go either way. You could call this a certificate....
http://www.dvgamerica.com/ad.html
http://www.dvgamerica.com/ad.html
W
I said I was done, but I guess I'm not.
yes a BH is more involved IMO than a CD, but is still considered a certificate. We just had this conversaition with SV judge Helmut Konig, and a BH is still a cert, not a title, WH, and SCH A are called titles by many, but they technically aren't I believe because they don't have bearing on breeding.
and AD I guess could go either way, because it tests function and could be used for a breeding title, but to most serious competitor they don't call it a title since any of our dogs could go out today and do one at anytime.
I'm familiar with the judges sheet, for the tests, i've done them, i know how to train for them, many people falsely call some of these things titles, maybe to them and their club, but to recognized nationally or for any breeding purposes, they are NOT.
yes a BH is more involved IMO than a CD, but is still considered a certificate. We just had this conversaition with SV judge Helmut Konig, and a BH is still a cert, not a title, WH, and SCH A are called titles by many, but they technically aren't I believe because they don't have bearing on breeding.
and AD I guess could go either way, because it tests function and could be used for a breeding title, but to most serious competitor they don't call it a title since any of our dogs could go out today and do one at anytime.
I'm familiar with the judges sheet, for the tests, i've done them, i know how to train for them, many people falsely call some of these things titles, maybe to them and their club, but to recognized nationally or for any breeding purposes, they are NOT.
The German stuff like BH isn't considered a title in the AKC because it's part of Schutzhund. We can't have any AKC show dogs doing anything as violent as that! Instead we can have them herd 3 sheep in a nice save environment and give them a title that way, and make up our own BH and call it something different.
W
Now the AKC has adopted their working dog program so we'll see how that goes, thre are defineatly 2 sides to that Right now I haven't looked into it too much, and there's a lot of stuff going around as to which judges they will use and i'm not even sure they'll be recognizing schH titles now or not, i guess I need to check myself becaues they're are too many rumors going around on the internet.
this is actually the second or THIRD reincarnation of bite sport being introduced to the AKC.
two years ago, the AKC tried to introduce (apparently unsuccessfully) a working dog trial, and the Doberman Pinscher Club of America hosted the first trial in conjuction with a GSD club, at their nationals - with a WDS trial. There is at least 1-2 dobes out there with AKC approved working titles already -
I know Dubheasa Germania SchHIII, IPO III, MondioRing Brevet WDS III CD, WAC, ATT, TT, CGC, holds such a title.
AKC clubs used to hold sanctioned schutzhund trials for years back in the 70's and 80s - it was before my time, but it occured.
two years ago, the AKC tried to introduce (apparently unsuccessfully) a working dog trial, and the Doberman Pinscher Club of America hosted the first trial in conjuction with a GSD club, at their nationals - with a WDS trial. There is at least 1-2 dobes out there with AKC approved working titles already -
I know Dubheasa Germania SchHIII, IPO III, MondioRing Brevet WDS III CD, WAC, ATT, TT, CGC, holds such a title.
AKC clubs used to hold sanctioned schutzhund trials for years back in the 70's and 80s - it was before my time, but it occured.
W
I just happened to be sitting at a Thai restraunt with my wife next to a group of AKC people going on and on about it. They were talking about how "disturbing" the video of bitework was and how they didn't want bite sports in the AKC. There was one voice of reason among them though and she politely pointed out that they had no idea the amount of training or the steps it took to get a dog to that point, they just saw a dog "attacking" someone, not having a clue as to what was really happening.
I'm interested to see how this all works out
I'm interested to see how this all works out
Hmm.......Are you only speaking Akc or Ckc aquired titles and certificates?
Because if not you must not be too familar with the training/requirements/and situations my Rocket has indured. She works 45+ hours a week, not to mention the week long k9 seminar where she had to prove herself in many many situations which she has to do every year to KEEP her certification. Not a title but a certificate. I believe what she and my husband and our family (yes we all go to the certs every year) have been involved in is in no way any less than a dog with a title. At least once a dog earns a title they are for keep.......if Rocket can't pass every situation she is evaluated on (every year) and follow all her commands, she may not be able to go back to work on Monday morning. And if my husband doesn't have complete control of her at all times in any situation.....then she couldn't obtain her "certificate" to continue her work as a patrol dog which includes narcotic detection, tracking, apprehension, and handler protection.
Rocket is AKC registered, but her training doesn't mean squat to them.
Because if not you must not be too familar with the training/requirements/and situations my Rocket has indured. She works 45+ hours a week, not to mention the week long k9 seminar where she had to prove herself in many many situations which she has to do every year to KEEP her certification. Not a title but a certificate. I believe what she and my husband and our family (yes we all go to the certs every year) have been involved in is in no way any less than a dog with a title. At least once a dog earns a title they are for keep.......if Rocket can't pass every situation she is evaluated on (every year) and follow all her commands, she may not be able to go back to work on Monday morning. And if my husband doesn't have complete control of her at all times in any situation.....then she couldn't obtain her "certificate" to continue her work as a patrol dog which includes narcotic detection, tracking, apprehension, and handler protection.
Rocket is AKC registered, but her training doesn't mean squat to them.
Yes, and a tremendous amount of work goes into training SAR dogs as well, who only recieve a mere certificate. It can take upwards of 2 years to get a dog certified for SAR, which includes daily training/socialization routines lasting for hours. That's why I could never do SAR, it takes over your entire life. Every single weekend, every single morning and night. Those dogs have to be able to do incredible things obedience and work-wise, such as totally ignore rabbit trails and lay down and stay when their handler signals them to do so from 50 feet away. Yet most do not ever recieve titles simply because they (the dogs and handlers) are too busy staying prepared mentally and physically to be called at the drop of a hat to go find some lost hiker in an avalanche area.
W
Yes I was talking about AKC and CKC "breeding" titles not SAR. patrol work, drug or explosive detection either. If anyone cares to remember, this started about CGN and CGC's being considered titles. We train, dual purpose, drug and explosive detection so I know what's involved and that most will never get any sort of "title"
- Joined
- Feb 28, 2006
- Messages
- 1,083
- Likes
- 0
- Points
- 0
Just popped into Chazhound after not having been here for some time .. been busy working and showing my dogs (getting titles takes TIME - just like sitting online and posting in here takes time).
My take on all of this is that a GOOD breeder does the following:
1) Make sure their dogs are fully health tested prior to breeding (as appropriate for the breed)
2) Have their dogs tested by more than one person to assess breed worthiness (adherence to the standard), temperament and overall soundness. (This could mean assessment by judges, koer-classed, AKC/CKC etc. judging, whatever - but it needs to be done by people who have the qualifications to truly judge the worthiness of the dog. It could mean receiving a conformation championship but doesn't necessarily have to go that far.)
3) Have a good knowledge of their dog's pedigree, the strengths and weaknesses, the health status of the ancestors, etc.
4) Prove their dog's working abilities, temperament, intelligence, athleticism. This could be done with titles in obedience, agility, herding, tracking, schutzhund, field trials, etc. or with actually being in long-term working situations. A dog that occasionally herds or tracks and has not earned a title wouldn't be worthy, to me. It has to show that it has the stamina to either earn the titles or work consistently.
Again, in my opinion - a person who says "my dog can work" but base that on a few encounters with sheep or a few training sessions does not prove anything. Titles are earned with consistent work under a certain level of stress, which is why they tend to prove worthiness. Same thing with solid working dogs (police dogs, SAR dogs, etc.). If these dogs have trained and certified in those fields, and are actively working, then as far as I'm concerned they've proved worthiness as far as a working dog.
There are certifications that mean very little to me (although I will often do them with my dogs just for fun). Any certification that takes ONE time to pass is not an indication that the dog will consistently work. In addition, some certifications are so very basic that they should be earned by any dog (CGC, CGN). I do these with my girls and I list them, but they're listed way after all the other real titles. Same thing with HIC - I have certified several dogs on sheep but in all honesty it doesn't take much for a dog to get the HIC certification. It's extremely basic.
If all a dog has is these simple certifications, then as far as I'm concerned it has no proof of working ability. Even a CD is very basic to me .. but then again, it depends on the breed. Looking at a German shepherd pedigree, I would expect to see titles like CDX and UD, TD and TDX, Sch2 or Sch3. On a chow pedigree, I'm happy to see a CD and if there's a CDX I'm THRILLED. So the breed of dog has to be taken into account too.
There's a lot of arguing between people who say that a working dog should be good enough to breed just because they're working, and people who say that a dog needs titles. In a way both sets of people are saying the same thing - that the dog needs to show that they CAN work. The titles just provide written proof of that. What doesn't work is someone saying "I know my dog CAN work, so my dog is worthy of breeding".
We all tend to have rose-colored glasses on when looking at our own dogs. Working ability needs to be proven and not just assumed - proven either by actively working or earning titles.
Melanie and the gang in Alaska
... slowly working on titles .. Khana earned two first places (scores of 98 and 93 with nine qualifiers) towards her RN title and Trick earned two seconds (scores of 99 and 98) towards her RA title last week .. and Khana picked up two points towards her CKC conformation title last month ..
My take on all of this is that a GOOD breeder does the following:
1) Make sure their dogs are fully health tested prior to breeding (as appropriate for the breed)
2) Have their dogs tested by more than one person to assess breed worthiness (adherence to the standard), temperament and overall soundness. (This could mean assessment by judges, koer-classed, AKC/CKC etc. judging, whatever - but it needs to be done by people who have the qualifications to truly judge the worthiness of the dog. It could mean receiving a conformation championship but doesn't necessarily have to go that far.)
3) Have a good knowledge of their dog's pedigree, the strengths and weaknesses, the health status of the ancestors, etc.
4) Prove their dog's working abilities, temperament, intelligence, athleticism. This could be done with titles in obedience, agility, herding, tracking, schutzhund, field trials, etc. or with actually being in long-term working situations. A dog that occasionally herds or tracks and has not earned a title wouldn't be worthy, to me. It has to show that it has the stamina to either earn the titles or work consistently.
Again, in my opinion - a person who says "my dog can work" but base that on a few encounters with sheep or a few training sessions does not prove anything. Titles are earned with consistent work under a certain level of stress, which is why they tend to prove worthiness. Same thing with solid working dogs (police dogs, SAR dogs, etc.). If these dogs have trained and certified in those fields, and are actively working, then as far as I'm concerned they've proved worthiness as far as a working dog.
There are certifications that mean very little to me (although I will often do them with my dogs just for fun). Any certification that takes ONE time to pass is not an indication that the dog will consistently work. In addition, some certifications are so very basic that they should be earned by any dog (CGC, CGN). I do these with my girls and I list them, but they're listed way after all the other real titles. Same thing with HIC - I have certified several dogs on sheep but in all honesty it doesn't take much for a dog to get the HIC certification. It's extremely basic.
If all a dog has is these simple certifications, then as far as I'm concerned it has no proof of working ability. Even a CD is very basic to me .. but then again, it depends on the breed. Looking at a German shepherd pedigree, I would expect to see titles like CDX and UD, TD and TDX, Sch2 or Sch3. On a chow pedigree, I'm happy to see a CD and if there's a CDX I'm THRILLED. So the breed of dog has to be taken into account too.
There's a lot of arguing between people who say that a working dog should be good enough to breed just because they're working, and people who say that a dog needs titles. In a way both sets of people are saying the same thing - that the dog needs to show that they CAN work. The titles just provide written proof of that. What doesn't work is someone saying "I know my dog CAN work, so my dog is worthy of breeding".
We all tend to have rose-colored glasses on when looking at our own dogs. Working ability needs to be proven and not just assumed - proven either by actively working or earning titles.
Melanie and the gang in Alaska
... slowly working on titles .. Khana earned two first places (scores of 98 and 93 with nine qualifiers) towards her RN title and Trick earned two seconds (scores of 99 and 98) towards her RA title last week .. and Khana picked up two points towards her CKC conformation title last month ..