Kicked out of Puppy Class
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Even though most people here consider my methos harsh, hanging a puppy as a means of punishment is blatant creulty. You could do damage to his neck and spinal cord.
This trainer is not a true trainer. I guess he forgot that as a trainer the punishment must fit the crime. I think in that situation a good loud "NO!" and a quick tap on the muzzle may have been sufficient. (I dont pin down small dogs as you can do damage there, I only pin the large breeds.)
Good luck on finding a good trainer.
-Dixie
This trainer is not a true trainer. I guess he forgot that as a trainer the punishment must fit the crime. I think in that situation a good loud "NO!" and a quick tap on the muzzle may have been sufficient. (I dont pin down small dogs as you can do damage there, I only pin the large breeds.)
Good luck on finding a good trainer.
-Dixie
I have read my first post (of this thread) over and I don't see where you get that Leo is dog aggressive. He isn't allowed to growl at another dog jumping on his head? I certainly would do more then growl if a person jumped on me! So, everyone that has a chow, a pit bull, a rottie, a gsd, an akita, etc, should start hanging them by their collar if they ever growl at another dog? Because of the breed? I guess the reason we have all this pending breed ban legislation is because of people with opinions like yours then. It is sad that you feel that way.
Blue- Thank you! Please don't drive into town for a phone number. The roads are terrible and the other drivers are worse!! If you come across her number, let me know. I have been getting some info on trainers and socialization from people around town and I will find something so Leo can have some puppy playtime. He is a very smart little guy and learns things quickly.
Thank you everyone for your support and advice. I really do appreciate it!!
Blue- Thank you! Please don't drive into town for a phone number. The roads are terrible and the other drivers are worse!! If you come across her number, let me know. I have been getting some info on trainers and socialization from people around town and I will find something so Leo can have some puppy playtime. He is a very smart little guy and learns things quickly.
Thank you everyone for your support and advice. I really do appreciate it!!
You said Leo went over and started jumping on the other dog (britney, I think you said it was) that's where I got the idea. My point is that's the best the trrainer could do. Not that everyone should do that. I don't like breed legislation, but I just think that the punishment should vary depending on the breed and what Leo did that I intended to explain is unexceptable and I agree 100% with the trainer asking you to leave. I'm sorry you think IK support breed restrictions because I don't. IKt hurts that I can't have my own oppinions (not gonna change anyway)and have a limit at dog to dog aggression. I'm not going bback to this discussion. That really hurts me that you think people like me cause breed-banning laws or that I even support them. I really hate them. Well, I'm done with this discusion. Good luck and I hope you find a good trainer. I'm done in this thread. 
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Taking a PUPPY and lifting it BY IT'S SCRUFF completely OFF OF THE GROUND is cruel. You just don't do that, especially if it's not your dog. That guy is an idiot.
What Leo did does NOT sound like dog aggression to me, at all. I have a dog who does not like strange dogs. Jumping onto a dog to play with it and jumping on a dog to nip or bite it are two completely different things.
What Leo did does NOT sound like dog aggression to me, at all. I have a dog who does not like strange dogs. Jumping onto a dog to play with it and jumping on a dog to nip or bite it are two completely different things.
Enlightened trainers know of better ways to modify and manage behavior like that. First of all, too many people are sooooooo sure of what they're seeing and so quick to label it. They see a dog going at another dog and blame that dog who is showing the most overt action. BUT...they didn't notice that the "victim" may have given off a certain threatening body language or visual cue to that "aggressor" prior to the action made by the "aggressor." So many people and trainers think they know everything what is going on between dogs. They only notice the biggest, obvious behavior and fail to notice or know anything about the more subtle language of dogs. We, as humans cannot know every induendo of their language to eachother.
This particular trainer is an idiot. To jump in and hang a dog for something which is NORMAL behavior to the dog's way of thinking is just stupid. You don't teach a dog anything with punishment of this sort. There is such a thing as conditioning, desensatization, socialization and showing the dog what alternative it has to reactiveness toward another dog. Dog aggression is talked about as if it's some taboo, horrible, weird thing. That is anthropologizing (or whatever that word is)... humanizing canine behavior to fit our emotions. It is THEIR way and THEIR language. We have no right, as human beings, a different specie to disrespect and brutalize an animal for their normal behavior.
We have at our disposal humane ways of teaching and conditioning dogs to suit our ways. It is our privilege to enjoy dogs and to modify their behavior to please us, so it is our duty to do so humanely. Lifting a dog off the ground by it's neck is abuse and it does NOT teach them anything but that the human race is to be distrusted.
You can have your opion Fuzzpuppy, but don't expect dog lovers to go along with it.
And people wonder why dogs, (especially protection type ones...."dangerous" breeds) "turn" on their masters and are unpredictable. Geeeez!
This particular trainer is an idiot. To jump in and hang a dog for something which is NORMAL behavior to the dog's way of thinking is just stupid. You don't teach a dog anything with punishment of this sort. There is such a thing as conditioning, desensatization, socialization and showing the dog what alternative it has to reactiveness toward another dog. Dog aggression is talked about as if it's some taboo, horrible, weird thing. That is anthropologizing (or whatever that word is)... humanizing canine behavior to fit our emotions. It is THEIR way and THEIR language. We have no right, as human beings, a different specie to disrespect and brutalize an animal for their normal behavior.
We have at our disposal humane ways of teaching and conditioning dogs to suit our ways. It is our privilege to enjoy dogs and to modify their behavior to please us, so it is our duty to do so humanely. Lifting a dog off the ground by it's neck is abuse and it does NOT teach them anything but that the human race is to be distrusted.
You can have your opion Fuzzpuppy, but don't expect dog lovers to go along with it.
And people wonder why dogs, (especially protection type ones...."dangerous" breeds) "turn" on their masters and are unpredictable. Geeeez!
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The guy is an idiot. Period.
Some dogs are very vocal while playing-- are you sure (or the trainer) that it wasn't play growling? A lot of dogs do that at my socialization class but they mean no harm. Even if it wasn't play growling, I want to see how someone would react if I jumped on them.
It's perfectly normal behavior. And trust me... if Leo really was an aggressive dog that trainer wouldn't have had a chance in hell to be able to grab the leash that he was attatched to and lift him up in the air.
I could've dealt with that A LOT better. This guy, man, he's just... a really bad trainer.
Also, Leo's BEAUTIFUL!
Some dogs are very vocal while playing-- are you sure (or the trainer) that it wasn't play growling? A lot of dogs do that at my socialization class but they mean no harm. Even if it wasn't play growling, I want to see how someone would react if I jumped on them.
It's perfectly normal behavior. And trust me... if Leo really was an aggressive dog that trainer wouldn't have had a chance in hell to be able to grab the leash that he was attatched to and lift him up in the air.
I could've dealt with that A LOT better. This guy, man, he's just... a really bad trainer.
Also, Leo's BEAUTIFUL!
Experience. But, I am sure others would disagree. I saw a great line posted somewhere that said that the only thing two trainers can agree on is that the third one is doing it wrong. Go figure. My only point is that you have to be very carefull if you do this, EVEN if you are dealing with a large breed.
I have seen many of you putting down teaching submission to dogs. I've never had to do it with a grown dog, but all my pups before 9 weeks old learned not to be submissive from 3 weeks on. This was nothing more than turning them on their backs when grooming. They were never forcefully held down. Then older, I'd stand them on their rear feet ( their back to my tummy) and cross my arms under their arm pits. Never did this for long and a gentle restraint. I realize all breeds are different , but I never had an agressive Golden.
Fuzz Puppy said:
You said Leo went over and started jumping on the other dog (britney, I think you said it was) that's where I got the idea. My point is that's the best the trrainer could do. Not that everyone should do that. I don't like breed legislation, but I just think that the punishment should vary depending on the breed and what Leo did that I intended to explain is unexceptable and I agree 100% with the trainer asking you to leave. I'm sorry you think IK support breed restrictions because I don't. IKt hurts that I can't have my own oppinions (not gonna change anyway)and have a limit at dog to dog aggression. I'm not going bback to this discussion. That really hurts me that you think people like me cause breed-banning laws or that I even support them. I really hate them. Well, I'm done with this discusion. Good luck and I hope you find a good trainer. I'm done in this thread.
You bet Ruby. All that body weight on it's cervical vertabrae can cause irreputable damage. It's abuse and no reasonable trainer would do that to a dog. Domination of a dog is simply not necessary. Scientific learning theory disproves this, as does my own experience with dogs for over 40 years. On the contrary, you get a lot further with a dog when you create a working partnership where you are a fair, kind but concise leader.....leader in most things. My dog is sometimes the "leader." When we start tracking training, I'll be following his lead. When a dog is doing search and rescue, he is the one who is doing the decision making and thinking. If you take away their spirit and incentive by domination and create submission, no dog will make a good service or any kind of working dog. A good relationship does not come about by causing submissiveness. And that is the most important tool in training dogs properly.
Thank you all for your advice and for sharing your knowledge. It has really meant a lot to me because this trainer has really made me think I had a bad dog (although I will never think it is okay to suspend him by his collar!). I brought Leo to a friends house for him to meet her Golden puppy (she is older & bigger then Leo). Molly (the golden) submitted to Leo right away (he didn't even DO anything). Leo went up and sniffed her, and sniffed her and did that little puppy "come play with me" growl. Molly has issues with male dogs and will always submit, no matter what, so she wouldn't get up and play, so Leo went back to sniffing the snow and the yard. Would he behave this way if he was truely dog aggressive? Like I said, I have really been stressing over this. Chow's already have a bad rap and I want Leo to be a good dog (that is why I had him in class!)
You're doing great by socializing him as a puppy. But that is no guarantee that he will not become dog reactive later when he reaches maturity. I say dog reactive because it's not that easy to determine exactly what is going on in a dog's mind. They can be frustrated by the leash and wanting to get to the other dog. They can be protective of you and they're going at the other dog. There are so many reasons for dog reactiveness. Now, if your dog gets this way and he could, in spite of your socializing efforts, this does not make him abnormal or a bad dog. Dog to dog reactiveness or aggression is not that unusual. It is not the same thing as dog to human aggression. That, I would worry about. There are ways to work around it if it should come up and ways to modify the behavior. It is not easy and you have to be careful. I know because my male Doberman is tending toward that way in spite of intense socialization as a pup. But there are some dogs he does like and invites to play with his body language and some he just doesn't seem to want near us. I don't feel that he is a bad dog and I don't punish or make a huge deal out of it. I try to teach him to re-direct his focus ahead of time the best I can and praise him for acting like a gentleman. He has over come a lot of this and in fact, recently got his CGC certificate and part of that test was being able to act "civil" close to a strange dog. He is well behaved in classes, but has a little trouble when out on a casual walk at times still. He is managable. Some breeds are notorious for dog to dgo reactiveness and because they're fine as pups does not necessarily mean they'll be fine as adults. So, don't be freaking out if your dog shows this tendancy later on. There's nothing wrong with a dog who does this. We must, however be extra diligent and responsible with our dogs that they do not hurt another dog. They must be under our control that way. We have to learn to stop thinking that dogs think like we do. And don't let anyone mistreat your dog or call your dog "bad." You're doing fine and so is your pup.
Yesterday we had to take Ruby to the vet to check for heart disease, and there was another dog in the waiting room. Ruby gets very excited and lunges at the other dog (and it did the same to her) but that was all. Then someone came in with a tiny little dog - it looked like a Chiuhaha but had Doberman colouring (lol) and it was going berserk. It was being carried by it's owner, and it was struggling, growling, barking, baring its teeth and being more aggressive than anything I've seen in my (limited) experience with dogs.
When we got into the examination room with the vet I said, `someone doesn't like going to the vet' and he said, `Actually, someone doesn't like other dogs. Notice how now that you have Ruby in here and the other guy has gone, the dog is perfectly calm, yet he's still at the vet!'. I couldn't believe it! If Ruby behaved like that I would be so upset. THAT is a dog-aggressive dog, not your baby. Ruby jumps on top of and body-slams other dogs all the time. There is never a problem, they do it to her, too. They love it, she loves it - she and Chester growl at each other in play constantly. You can easily tell the difference between a puppy play-growl and a serious I-would-eat-you-if-I-could growl.
When we got into the examination room with the vet I said, `someone doesn't like going to the vet' and he said, `Actually, someone doesn't like other dogs. Notice how now that you have Ruby in here and the other guy has gone, the dog is perfectly calm, yet he's still at the vet!'. I couldn't believe it! If Ruby behaved like that I would be so upset. THAT is a dog-aggressive dog, not your baby. Ruby jumps on top of and body-slams other dogs all the time. There is never a problem, they do it to her, too. They love it, she loves it - she and Chester growl at each other in play constantly. You can easily tell the difference between a puppy play-growl and a serious I-would-eat-you-if-I-could growl.
Yes you can indeed. But the I would eat you if I could growl can come from a variety of reasons. And that's the clincher. Lyric will attempt to lunge at some dogs. He appears vicious in some cases, barking, snarling, snapping his jaws. And in some cases, not as vicious, but not acting like he's playing either. (Believe me, after 40 some years of living and breathing dogs, I know that body language when I see it.) But the question is, is he being protective of me? Is he being dominant aggressive? Is he feeling that there is a threat from this dog? Is he ticked and frustrated that he's on a leash and can't get close to check out what this dog is all about? Does he think the other dog is challenging him? Was there a subtle look from that dog that I missed that triggered something?
When I met with someone and their dog, (it was actually Angelique on this forum) when I first let Lyric out of my car, on his leash, of course, he lunged, growled, barked, acted nasty. We began to take a walk. He relaxed as he walked parallel with the other dog. Then we were behind the other dog and he sniffed the dog's rear and no further "acting up." We got to the place where we were going...the beach and he began sticking his rear up in the air, wagging, bouncing around like a pup. He was inviting play. At this point, we felt it safe to turn them both loose off leash and they turned out to be buddies and had a wee of a time.
My point is that there are different reasons for dog reactiveness and dog aggression. If we can figure out what is behind it, it helps. But that is not always apparent right off the bat or at all. And it is canine behavior, not human behavior. It's their communication between themselves and with some dogs, it's a stonger instinct than in others. It is not out of the realms of normal for a dog to have this. It is important to manage it and learn how to modify the outward, overt behavior. They can be expected to control themselves. They cannot be expected to not have those feelings. It is pointless to humanize dogs.
When I met with someone and their dog, (it was actually Angelique on this forum) when I first let Lyric out of my car, on his leash, of course, he lunged, growled, barked, acted nasty. We began to take a walk. He relaxed as he walked parallel with the other dog. Then we were behind the other dog and he sniffed the dog's rear and no further "acting up." We got to the place where we were going...the beach and he began sticking his rear up in the air, wagging, bouncing around like a pup. He was inviting play. At this point, we felt it safe to turn them both loose off leash and they turned out to be buddies and had a wee of a time.
My point is that there are different reasons for dog reactiveness and dog aggression. If we can figure out what is behind it, it helps. But that is not always apparent right off the bat or at all. And it is canine behavior, not human behavior. It's their communication between themselves and with some dogs, it's a stonger instinct than in others. It is not out of the realms of normal for a dog to have this. It is important to manage it and learn how to modify the outward, overt behavior. They can be expected to control themselves. They cannot be expected to not have those feelings. It is pointless to humanize dogs.