Kicked out of Puppy Class

Discussion in 'Dog Training Forum' started by kitcatak, Nov 18, 2005.

  1. Zoom

    Zoom Twin 2.0

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    I don't think so. Otherwise the socialization is a bit stilted, and you run the risk of an unexpected situation out in public. It's like training your dog away from all distractions. He'll behave perfectly in that environment, but the moment he's outside, you'd think he'd never heard a command before.

    I think of course that the dogs should be closely monitored in a mixed class...some dogs do fine with dogs their own size but will try to eat a small dog, or vice versa. We were fostering a rescue Airedale at work, and while he got along fine with the other big dogs, anything shih tzu size or smaller gave him this "i'm hungry" gleam in his eyes. I've seen it in other dogs as well.
     
  2. Doberluv

    Doberluv Active Member

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    I agree Zoom. They usually have them all together. In both my agility class and obedience class there are both sizes. (the jumps are regulated to fit the different dogs) In my last obedience, there was a tiny Pomernaian. The dogs are indeed watched. Lyric is so great wtih dogs during class that all the dogs could do the sit or down/stay in a line up, side by side with about 10 ft between them, while we walked away about 20 ft, not holding a leash. He paid no attention to the dogs whatsoever. All the dogs were pretty good about doing their job.This was a more advanced class. I was worried at first, but because of his body language and his disinterest in the other dogs at these times, the trainer was not worried. His stay is impeccable. He actually particuarily liked a GSD and the Pom. He always seems to like the small dogs the best...maybe because we have small dogs and he's use to them or because they pose no threat in his mind. So his dog reactiveness is selective and at certain situations, just not in a class or a planned out get together....when it's like, "Ok Lyric...we're having a dog party. We're doing this and that, so no worries." LOL.
     
  3. Dixie

    Dixie The ***** idiot

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    OK you guys have taken this pinning down WAY out of context. The only time I have had to pin down a dog is if he showed signs of agressiveness. Such as growling and snapping at another dog during feeding time. I did this with my boy when he actually grabbed another pup (my brothers dog), I walked over to him took him a few feet away from the other dogs, rolled him onto his back (read NOT BODY SLAMMED), held him down with my hand over his chest and my knee on his hind quarter, and let out a deep growl. He hasnt shown agression since because he knew why he got it and he knows if he does it again, he'll get it again. This was not done with the intent of doing harm, this was done with the intent to scare him out of being aggressive. He knows Im in charge. Again, everyone has different methods, lets not cut each other down for it.

    -Dixie
     
  4. Dixie

    Dixie The ***** idiot

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    Also adding I think we all agree on whats cruel and whats not. Anything done with the intent to cause harm to a dog is considered cruel and abuse.
     
  5. Doberluv

    Doberluv Active Member

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    No one is cutting anyone down personally because they don't agree with a particular method. There have been no personal attacks here.

    The thing about rolling the dog on his back when you're serious and I don't mean as in play and belly rubs...I mean for the intent you described and I realize you're not out to hurt him:
    To a dog's body language and way they comminicate, they can interpret this manuver as an attack on them. Any time a dog is in such a position during a power struggle or confrontation, this appearance of an attack is dangerous. Alpha dogs do not knock other dogs on their backs for any lesson. Submissive dogs will roll over on their own. I argue this because I hate for this advice to get out and hate to think of people doing this and risking a very serious bite, not to mention the detrimental effects to the trusting relationship. The ONLY time a higher ranking dog rolls another over on it's back forceably and pins it is when it is planning on KILLING it. You can imagine what this does to a dog's mind.

    There are other ways of teaching a dog something than domination, force, fear, scaring it into submission. I've had and trained dogs for almost 1/2 a century and have never had any reason to do something like that. This mainly teaches a dog to comply out of fear and to avoid punishment and not to comply to earn praise and reward or learn anything. To avoid punishment is not a reliable teaching method and can back fire down the road. It is a very outdated, dangerous practice, this alpha roll...outdated because it comes from old, unscientific wolf studies which were done on wolves in captivity, not in the wild. More recent and more scientifically carried out studies disprove many of the training methods which came about and were based on these old studies.
     
  6. bubbatd

    bubbatd Moderator

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    Okay...I'll add a story to this. As most of you know I'm proud of the Goldens I've raised. Once I had a rescue dog in and I was keeping him in our large backyard kennel as he was very hyper and we lived on 8 acres unfenced wooded property. Daily, I took him out on a horse lunge line to give him some excersise and try to get him to interact with my dogs. One day when out he slipped his collar and started to run. I called to no avail. Next thing I knew my Bubba ran after him, butted him and put him down on his back. They sounded like they were going to tear each other apart ! I yelled at Bubba...he looked at me as he had the dog down ....he was just holding him on his back until I could come and put the collar on....which I did . Once the dog was collared , Bubba let him up . All safe...all sound !
     
  7. Doberluv

    Doberluv Active Member

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    Whew! That must have made you nervous. Well, I think that domestic dogs have lost some intensity of some of their instincts...no doubt.My point, I guess is that it concerns me that any promotion of implimenting alpha rolls on our dogs as the way for US to stop something they're doing is a dangerous thing. I've seen photos of people who did this and the photos showed unbelievable injury to their face. This is not something that should be suggested to people as a means of controlling their dogs.

    Here is a good article that I urge anyone interested to read.

    http://www.bogartsdaddy.com/bouvier/Training/alpha-roll_no.htm
     
  8. bubbatd

    bubbatd Moderator

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    Interesting .... no, I would never do this to an adult dog. But I thought it was interesting that Bubba ( as sweet and none aggressive as he was ) would. Being a home whelped pup, he went through my usual puppy socialization , but only showed dog intervention twice in his life. The other time, he went into Elin's dog's Yogi's foster home so we could evaluate Yogi as a family member. Yogi poked, growled and bristled at him to no response. When Yogi was adopted, the first time Bubba visited him, he put Yogi down in the submissive mode immediately. He let him right up and they were friends forever.
     
  9. casablanca1

    casablanca1 Happy

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    I'd have quit the class at that point if my dog was one of those breeds for whom a snarl, a growl and a bite is more likely. A lot of trainers have a breed bias - they love Pit Bulls and find Pomeranians irritating, adore Goldens and hate terriers. I first discovered this while trying to train a husky/terrier mix who did NOT want to please me, who growled at me, who snapped at me, who disliked being touched and who should, in the opinion of every training book I consulted, be sent off for professional training because no dog should ever lift a lip at a human. I finally realized that every one of these books featured an author photo of the trainer surrounded by her Goldens, GSDs, Poodles or Border Collies. I found some other books (one written expressly for people with notoriously hard-headed breeds) and everything improved.
     
  10. Mothergoose

    Mothergoose New Member

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    I saw a dog "hanging" at a Schutzhund training one time....I was mortified. Chows are a challenge but they can be motivated. You should get with someone that specializes just with this breed. They are wonderful once they are trained nicely.....they are worth the effort too.:p
     
  11. aekdb1564

    aekdb1564 New Member

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    I agree Petsmart people aren't smart. You need you really find a good breeder or trainer who knows the ins and outs of dogs. I think you'll have a lot better success.
     
  12. skyhigh

    skyhigh New Member

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    Firstly, I didn't find that her first post was saying that Leo is aggressive. Where'd ya get that from? Anyway, I think Kitcatak is socialiing Leo as much as possible atm from what it sounds like. Stop bashing her just because her dog has the STEREOTYPE of being an aggressive breed. Gosh
     

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