Is it wrong to leave a dog alone?

[tessa_s212]

If I remember correctly, this argument has been hashed out here on Chaz before, and Dizzy if I am not mistaken you were highly involved in that discussion as well. And of course, not without the same condescending and judgemental tone you hold right now.

I'm done, but all I ask you to do is open your eyes a little. Please try to understand. Every responsible dog owner I know crates their dog, and every single one of those dogs are healthy and happy. They've got to be doing something right.

 

[carlar]

You have to work to live and take care of your dogs. It sounds like the time you are with them is quality time and you love them. Would it be better for them to be in a shelter somewhere unloved?

 

[Rubylove]

I don't actually think that crating is cruel, but I do think that having any animal in a cage for hours on end, is not exactly an ideal situation either.

We don't crate our dogs - not only because it's pretty unheard of in Australia - but also because they are young and boisterous and I don't want to box them up 8+ hours a day. Their lives are boring enough as it is, and they have GREAT lives!

But who am I to know what a dog likes and dislikes? I know I personally would hate it, but I'm human and have higher expectations of my time than a dog would. Crates were based on the den idea, right? If a dog actually likes - ancestrally - to be confined, or more to the point, somewhere they consider a haven, then ok, they're probably more genetically predisposed to it.

They can, of course, leave their dens whenever they choose, which they can't do if locked in a crate.

I guess my take on it would be everything in moderation. I would use a crate when we went out socially at night, to make sure that they could be safe inside, not wreck anything and not hurt themselves, but I'd never leave them in it for more than two hours. I just don't agree with that.

During the day at work they are outside, with lots of toys, interactive and stimulating puzzles, and bones. They probably sleep most of the day anyway, so wouldn't care if they were in a crate. But I also know that they get up and walk around, sniff things, watch the birds, play, pee and poop, tussle, chew their bones and chase their toys. I wouldn't want to deprive them of the CHOICE of being able to do that - or sleep - whatever they prefer. I don't advocate locking animals in cages, for whatever reason, but again, I don't think crating is cruel either, when used appropriately and in moderation.

 

[Muggie'sMum]

zoomies = high speed maniacal running, usually with a very scary toothy grin and tucked butt.

and no, it's not just a pit bull thing

My danes get zoomies all the time. I think it's reserved to big "scary" dogs that could knock you over during their zoomies.

 

[Zoom]

I used to crate when I first got Sawyer; I had to. He was not trustworthy about being left home alone for even 20 minutes and I had to do things sometimes that didn't allow me to bring him along. He hated it at first and found clever Houdini like ways to break out of it. But little by little he got better, going to work taught him to just chill out and Aubrey showed him that it was OK to be left alone without freaking out. He's now fine for at least 5 hours alone; haven't tried more than that--haven't needed to. I can usually drop him off at work and let him play until I come back and get him.

When I had Virgo and her crate here, it would be open when I was home, and Sawyer loved to go in it and sleep. It wasn't his crate, he wasn't forced to. But he did. Virgo was the same way; she'd voluntarily sleep in there at night even with the door open. Provided you have a properly sized crate and don't keep the dog in there 12 hours a day straight, it's not cruel.

 

[Bobsk8]

If I remember correctly, this argument has been hashed out here on Chaz before, and Dizzy if I am not mistaken you were highly involved in that discussion as well. And of course, not without the same condescending and judgemental tone you hold right now.

I'm done, but all I ask you to do is open your eyes a little. Please try to understand. Every responsible dog owner I know crates their dog, and every single one of those dogs are healthy and happy. They've got to be doing something right.

That's unusual to know some many people that their crate dogs. I know quite a few dog owners and the only one that I know that crates their dog is my daughter.

 

[Muggie'sMum]

Thought - Morrie's flight here was 13 hours. Glad he knew how to crate before he got on a flight so he didn't rip himself to shreds.

What about if your dog shatters something and is required to be immobile for an extended period of time?

Morrie may not *always* stay in his crate - when he gets older and outgrows his penchant for chowing down on ANYTHING (and really Dizzy, I mean everything - there's no way we could safeguard the house against him unless we took everything out - all appliances, furniture and personal belongings and left him in a padded wall room!), he will likely get to sleep on the bed with mom. But until then, when I am not able to supervise him, I can rest easy knowing he's safe. AND it will be a useful tool for later, if he needs to be transported somewhere in a crate, etc.

I guess it's different whatever is more customary depending on your region - before the pups, I had never even heard of people keeping their dogs crated. Please address my situation though - what would you do if your dog pulled a pen off of the desk or table and chewed it and had it jammed in their throat?????

I will tell you we never used crates here until we got these pups. Now I think they're the best thing. It's not ideal that my dogs have to spend that long in their crate, but I know that I am protecting them and giving them quality time when they are not in their crates. Sorry but you can't tell me that it's wrong to protect my dogs.

 

[rij73]

I don't think the original question had anything to do with crates, LOL!

Everyone is getting so hot under the collar...

Look, everyone on this board LOVES their dogs. Otherwise, we would not be here discussing this. Why some feel the need to attack others' choices is beyond me.

As I mentioned before, my dog is crated only when I go out which is not too often as I work from home. I experimented with leaving him free in the apartment. I tried just very short periods. That resulted in a chewed up comforter within 5 minutes. Hudson was pooping cotton fluff for days.

I tried confining to the kitchen with a gate. I removed aboslutely everything dangerous or edible. That resulted in a gate with teeth and claw marks all over it and a splinter in Hudson's tongue. He was beside himself with panic and anxiety.

The crate is the only way he stays calm and safe.

I hope to phase out the crate as he gets older. When I am home, he never tries to eat things. It's just something he does when he is left alone. I assume it is anxiety. I hope he will calm down and be less fearful. However, until I see evidence that he will not try to eat every piece of fabric in the apartment, I cannot risk his health.

I refuse to accept anyone telling me I am being cruel. Again, I'm lucky that he only needs to be crated if I run out to the store for a few minutes or go out to dinner. Every couple of weeks or so he may need to be crated for 4-6 hours at a stretch. It's not every day.

I am thankful that there are crates so that I don't have to worry about my precious dog when I have to be away. I have even left a tape recorder running while I go out. So, I have proof that while he is anxious at first, he calms himself down after a little while and then sleeps until I come home. He was incapable of doing this loose in the apartment or even just in the kitchen.

 

[DanL]

We crated all our dogs at one point. Midnite was crated when we were not home til she was 3 because she was not trustworthy. Even with a myriad of chewies and toys, she would eat furniture legs and other wooden objects, like steps.

Gunnar was crated til he was about 9 months- overnight, and when we were not home. We gradually gave him more freedom when we went out. He has never destroyed anything and hasn't had an accident in the house since he was 4 months old, and he now has full run of the house 24x7. He sleeps in our room at night. We kept his crate up for a while afterwards. We'd feed him in there when the weather was bad, and he'd go in there to lay down all the time. It was his place.

Bruzer is 5, and he's still crated. He's in his crate right now. He loves to sleep in- if you open his crate at 6am when we let the other dogs out, he looks up with one bleary eye, and goes back to sleep. You have to literally pull him out of the crate if you want him to go outside before 8-9am. He goes in the crate all the time on his own. It's his place with a nice soft bed and he puts his toys in there to keep them from Gunnar. We crate him if we're going to be gone a long time because he's like RD's Ripley- he marks things and he's not trustworthy. We leave him out if we're only gone a short time, and he'll sleep in the 1 chair he likes.

In general, I don't think crating is cruel. The dogs have a safe place. All they do is sleep all day when you are gone anyway. Both Gunnar and Midnite are sleeping as I type this, Gunnar at my feet on the left, Midnite on the other side of the room. Crating is a great training tool and a way to keep your dogs safe. I don't think it's like Dizzy says, that our dogs are toys that we put away, or whatever her comment was. While Bruzer is still crated, he's given lots of attention, gets plenty of exercise, and is loved no less than anyone else. Crating allowed us to get a high energy GSD thru puppyhood without him destroying a single thing in the house and having him completely housebroken by 4 months. Crating allowed us to break Midnite of a destructive chewing habit that wasn't fixed by providing better chewing alternatives for her.

Like someone commented- is it better to crate for 8 hours and then give your dog tons of attention, exercise, training, or is it better to leave them out 24x7 and ignore them?

Comparing them to human children or even adults is just wrong. A dog doesn't think the way a human does. And people DO "crate" their kids, in the playpen, in the Johnny Jump up, in the swing, the crib, many places where the child is confined so they don't get hurt. I don't understand why some people insist on humanizing their dogs, thinking they "feel" bad about being put into certain situations. They don't "feel" bad at all. If you personally feel bad about crating, don't do it, but don't look down your noses at those of us who understand the reasons for using them and have a need to use them. Not everyone can be with their dog all day, not all of us have a place we can put the dog where it is safe and won't destroy the house.

 

[MyIrishWolfie]

I take her to work, and when I run errands, I take her with me, and leave her in the car. (I have a buckle harness, a fan, a bed, and toys in the car)

Out of curiosity.. what do you do with your dog when you take her to work? Does she sit with you?

Comparing them to human children or even adults is just wrong. A dog doesn't think the way a human does. And people DO "crate" their kids, in the playpen, in the Johnny Jump up, in the swing, the crib, many places where the child is confined so they don't get hurt. I don't understand why some people insist on humanizing their dogs, thinking they "feel" bad about being put into certain situations. They don't "feel" bad at all. If you personally feel bad about crating, don't do it, but don't look down your noses at those of us who understand the reasons for using them and have a need to use them. Not everyone can be with their dog all day, not all of us have a place we can put the dog where it is safe and won't destroy the house.

Well said

 

[Dulce Pit Bull]

Out of curiosity.. what do you do with your dog when you take her to work? Does she sit with you?

I work at a Pet Boutique, and she sleeps in the back office the whole time. Of course I take her to potty. Sometimes when it's slow I play ball with her

 

[krisykris]

Dulce! What a fun job!!!

 

[MyIrishWolfie]

I work at a Pet Boutique, and she sleeps in the back office the whole time. Of course I take her to potty. Sometimes when it's slow I play ball with her

Cool!!

I bet she enjoys being there with you

 

[Buddy'sParents]

Then I actually THOUGHT about it, and thought what a 1. miserable existance it must be.

I'm sorry, but I bet 99% of the dog owning population who crate do not actually need to do it - 2. it's just so the dog fits into their life easier.

It's like owning a toy - a TV - a convinent bit of fun....

3. If you aren't capable of removing dangerous items from your home, or locking cupboards - I worry for when you have kids.... Seriously.

Dogs might be happy sleeping in a crate - I don't dispute that fact - what I am concerned about it forcing a dog to sleep in a box, that it can't get out of, whether it has a kong/chew in or not, for 8 hours a day PLUS.

4. You can justify it all you like - but it's black and white - cruel.

Once again I see something that people do to satisfy themselves. If you're dog is destroying your house, you should look at those issues - not BOX it to solve the problem and save your house.

1. I sure hope your parents never put you in a play pen, crib, jumper, or car seat, surely that would be miserable for such a young child to be restrained and SAFE. Honesty, I'm not sure what parents think when they strap their child into a car seat or put them in a play pen for some tummy time. Gosh, you know, I probably shouldn't put a seat belt on my dogs either...that's silly. Even though we were in an accident before.. that's okay. The dogs won't ever get hurt. Surely someone catches my drift here.

2. We fit our dogs lifestyles. That is how important they are to us. The crate ensures their safety in the world we live in today.

3. My home is as dog proofed as it can get. However, I can not 150% guaranteee my dogs safety running loose when I am not home. What happens if one of them falls down the stairs? What happens if one of them fall off of the deck? What if someone jumps the fence and attempts to take one of them? To be cruel, in my opinion, would be to jeapordize their very existence by leaving them unattended.

4. No, what's cruel is how condescending you are. Just because we do not feel the same as you does not make any of us who crate our dogs any less of a human being owned by dogs.

Wake up, Dizzy. Not all of us live in a perfect world where our dogs can travel everywhere with us or where it is safe to let them roam about while we are gone. I love my dogs and do more for my dogs than others would ever dream of.

So again, step down from that pedestal, you are not painting a very nice picture of yourself. It looks like you are about to fall off anyway.

 

[casablanca1]

I would just like to apologize for introducing the topic of crates into what was a perfectly civil question about working by poor Gempress. I wasn't thinking, or I'd have remembered what a mare's nest this always becomes.

Last thoughts - I think it does depend on the dog's personality. I think 8 hours in a crate would be very cruel to my dog, who cannot sit still and is very easily agitated. She will put up with being in the crate for a time if neccessary, but there is no evidence she finds it comforting, 'cave-like' or safe, as all crate proponents claim. She appears to regard it as a prison, staring out and clawing at the locking mechanism. When she settles down, it's with the resigned air of a lifer.

Also, I am a wee bit skeptical of the 'we're trying to keep our babies safe' defense by crate people just because I've met an awful lot of people who take their dogs out of the crate after work and go straight to the nearest park, where they release them offleash 50 feet from a highway.

 

[rij73]

... but there is no evidence she finds it comforting, 'cave-like' or safe, as all crate proponents claim. She appears to regard it as a prison, staring out and clawing at the locking mechanism. When she settles down, it's with the resigned air of a lifer.

Also, I am a wee bit skeptical of the 'we're trying to keep our babies safe' defense by crate people just because I've met an awful lot of people who take their dogs out of the crate after work and go straight to the nearest park, where they release them offleash 50 feet from a highway.

Please, please do not say "as all crate proponents claim" or "crate people". Again, the only thing bothering me here is how so many *generalizations* are being made. Again, we ALL love our dogs here. I resent being called a "crate person" as if it is such a one-dimensional issue. (My dog is *never* offleash outdoors.)

Let us just disagree civilly and give each other the benefit of the doubt! I think it's great that some people's dogs do not have to be crated. Good for them! Just don't criticize those of us who have found it to be our best option.

 

[Amalthea]

Wow, this topic got huge!!

On the crating issue, I have to say that I would find it cruel in some circumstances... not ALL circumstances.

I'm lucky to have a busy household with someone home pretty much all the time, people I can trust always around, and an easy time finding someone who knows both the dogs well to come watch them in case we should ever have to be gone for very long. A lot of our friends still live with their parents, or in crappy apartments, or don't always get along with their significant other at home, etc....and prefer to come by our house and hang out to staying at home. We don't mind at all, as long as they're not disrespectful of our house. We've had several friends turn into temporary roommates because their home situation changed and they didn't have anywhere else to go, and asked us for help. Actually, Moro was sort of "accidentally" socialized because of this lifestyle -- she sees all of our friends coming by on a regular basis and has observed this since she was a puppy. As a result, she is very friendly with all of our friends...she is a little wary if she's meeting someone brand-new who's never been to our house before (especially if it's a guy, she's a little more timid around men), but once we introduce them to her and let her know they're okay, she tends to accept them quickly. And she LOVES anyone who spent a good deal of time with her as a puppy... we had a friend living with us for a few months at the time we got Moro, she was having some pretty serious abuse problems with her boyfriend and had nowhere else to go for help... she was around Moro from the time we got her at 3 months, till Moro was about 6 months old, when she (our friend) got her life straightened out and moved into her own place. She still comes by to visit us from time to time, and you can really tell that Moro remembers her from puppyhood - she becomes totally silly as soon as she sees her, even if it's been months... wriggling all over and wagging her tail and trying to lick her

With Midas, it wouldn't be as much of an issue because he is less excitable and destructive than Moro, but he's also a puppy and she's sort of like a big sister to him... he follows her, wants to know where she's going and what she's doing, and wants to be involved in whatever she's doing. So if we left Moro alone and she started destroying stuff, he would probably be eager to pitch in and help

We never crated Moro at all... she was not socialized and had only been with her mother when we got her, and was scared to death of all people... we didn't want to encourage that by locking her in a small space. And yes... she destroys stuff occassionally. Our carpets, a few spots in the hardwood floor in the bathroom, and a good population of our shoes will never be the same again because of her ... but we just kept at telling her "no" when she chewed on something inappropriate, replacing with a toy, and now she will choose a toy over destroying something of ours. The only thing we've had trouble getting her to stay out of is the garbage, but she only gets into it every once in a while, usually while we're asleep, or on the rare occassion that no one is home. I'm not going to start locking her in a crate when no one is home because of this. We will either find someone to watch her, or trust her to have the run of the house while we're gone, and be willing to clean up after her if she decides to destroy something while we're gone.

Midas was crated at night during the first week we had him. We had to borrow the crate from a friend... He came home to us covered in fleas and ticks, and we spent a long time tweezing them off him, but we still had only made a dent in their population... we kept him crated to keep him seperate from Moro during that week so that she wouldn't get bugs from him. He went to the vet the next day, and we kept him crated for 4 days after that (NOT continuously, just while we were asleep) while the vet bug poison worked to kill the rest of the bugs on him....we didn't want Moro to be licking him or getting dead ticks on her. After that, we cleaned the crate out and took it back, and he has the run of the house now. He is a perfect foot-of-the-bed dog...he loves sleeping on my feet He did NOT like being in the crate at night, and I felt bad for having to do it to him, but it was necessary at the time.

I would say that people know their individual dogs and what works for them, and what doesn't. I would be a little iffy about someone leaving a dog in a crate for 8 hours or more every day... but that person knows their dog better than I do, and there might be no other choice. Some dogs do okay with crates and see it as their 'safe haven', others I would consider it cruel and you can tell they definitely don't like being confined. I don't think you can just look at it and say "all dogs who are crated for more than x amount of hours daily are being mistreated", it really is an individual thing. If I tried to put Moro in a crate right now for 5 minutes, I would consider it being cruel, because she's not used to that at all. Some dogs ARE used to it though, and will be okay as long as they get plenty of love and attention when their owner is home.

 

[RD]

Once again I see something that people do to satisfy themselves. If you're dog is destroying your house, you should look at those issues - not BOX it to solve the problem and save your house.

It must be nice to live such a pampered, perfect existance that you don't ever have anything that is out of your control.

I CAN'T let my dog destroy the house. Mmm'kay? Why is that so hard for you to understand? If I don't crate Ripley, he pees everywhere. In the meantime, I use the crate and a bellyband to prevent that while I am home but when I'm gone, I can't leave the bellyband on him and most certainly am not going to let him wreck the house so I get screamed at by my parents when I come home.

Argh. I give up. Guess I'll go abuse my dog some more.

 

[Muggie'sMum]

I don't think the original question had anything to do with crates, LOL!

Everyone is getting so hot under the collar...

I certainly don't appreciate being called cruel when I am doing something that I believe protects my dog - that's why *I* am hot under the collar. No one likes to be told they're wrong - Everyone reacts to being told they're "wrong" differently, and so bluntly, IMHO, is pretty rude. "You are cruel, the end." It's not an open and shut case. Sure crating might not work for everyone, some people might not believe in it, but it certainly doesn't make someone less of a person or less of an animal lover when they are truly protecting their animals - and I KNOW for a fact that that is what I am doing, based on personal experience.

One thing I have learned through working with horses for 21 years is that not every animal is the same and what works for some will not work for every animal - because they are each different, and each is unpredictable.

 

[casablanca1]

He came home to us covered in fleas and ticks, and we spent a long time tweezing them off him, but we still had only made a dent in their population... we kept him crated to keep him seperate from Moro during that week so that she wouldn't get bugs from him. He went to the vet the next day, and we kept him crated for 4 days after that (NOT continuously, just while we were asleep) while the vet bug poison worked to kill the rest of the bugs on him....we didn't want Moro to be licking him or getting dead ticks on her.

Bleeehhhhh, that's gross. That must have been one heck of a week for all of you.