I need help with Mia
- Thread starter Laurelin
- Start date
No, I mean that the collapsing trachea may have little or nothing to do with the current symptoms you are seeing. Like, if on an x-ray she has a collapsing trachea then she has a collapsing trachea - but her clinical signs don't seem to quite match so maybe that isn't primarily the source of the problem even though it's there.
When there's that noisy breathing it makes me think of something obstructive in the upper airway/throat - laryngeal paralysis, elongated soft palate, polyps, stuff like that.
The anatomy of a dog's trachea is a little different than ours. Our tracheas have cartilage rings that are a complete O shape. Dogs' have a C shape, with the open part being a muscular membrane. Most commonly with a collapsing trachea, what happens is that the muscle is flabby enough that breathing IN causes a vacuum that sucks it down, narrowing the trachea and then they have to cough to try to "blow" it back open again. But, although I've never seen this myself I've also heard reports that there are some dogs where the muscle rather than getting sucked down acutely, just sort of hangs down all the time and narrows the airway. So it's not impossible for it to be causing the noisy breathing, it just seems... a little "off" to me as the entire explanation.
I think to say for sure that there ISN'T some upper airway disease contributing, you'd have to do some upper airway imaging. That can be as simple as sedation and a good visual physical exam of the pharynx which is almost impossible to thoroughly examine in an awake dog. It's something to at least ask about just for the sake of completeness. Everything may come back as "yup, it really is collapsing trachea" but at least you would know for sure. (And again, take this internet advice for your dog I've never laid hands on for what it is worth, which is not as good as what your vet who knows her and has seen and examined her is. Just speculating because I want so badly for this to be fixed for you.)
When there's that noisy breathing it makes me think of something obstructive in the upper airway/throat - laryngeal paralysis, elongated soft palate, polyps, stuff like that.
The anatomy of a dog's trachea is a little different than ours. Our tracheas have cartilage rings that are a complete O shape. Dogs' have a C shape, with the open part being a muscular membrane. Most commonly with a collapsing trachea, what happens is that the muscle is flabby enough that breathing IN causes a vacuum that sucks it down, narrowing the trachea and then they have to cough to try to "blow" it back open again. But, although I've never seen this myself I've also heard reports that there are some dogs where the muscle rather than getting sucked down acutely, just sort of hangs down all the time and narrows the airway. So it's not impossible for it to be causing the noisy breathing, it just seems... a little "off" to me as the entire explanation.
I think to say for sure that there ISN'T some upper airway disease contributing, you'd have to do some upper airway imaging. That can be as simple as sedation and a good visual physical exam of the pharynx which is almost impossible to thoroughly examine in an awake dog. It's something to at least ask about just for the sake of completeness. Everything may come back as "yup, it really is collapsing trachea" but at least you would know for sure. (And again, take this internet advice for your dog I've never laid hands on for what it is worth, which is not as good as what your vet who knows her and has seen and examined her is. Just speculating because I want so badly for this to be fixed for you.)
Wish you weren't across the country so you could see her in person. 
I do appreciate it though and will take it for what it is worth. I always think it helps to get some ideas to bounce off the vet though. I may take her somewhere else after this for another look at a different vet.
She was put under when they did her x-rays and that's when he had said her soft palate was a little long but her trachea was collapsed in her chest.
Do you usually see palate issues affecting a 5 year old dog though? Should that have shown up when she was younger? \
I have wondered if maybe she has an infection or something going on? Pneumonia or bronchitis or something like that on top of the collapsed trachea. It just seems... weird that it showed up and got bad so fast. Her breathing is noisier by the week.
I do appreciate it though and will take it for what it is worth. I always think it helps to get some ideas to bounce off the vet though. I may take her somewhere else after this for another look at a different vet.
She was put under when they did her x-rays and that's when he had said her soft palate was a little long but her trachea was collapsed in her chest.
Do you usually see palate issues affecting a 5 year old dog though? Should that have shown up when she was younger? \
I have wondered if maybe she has an infection or something going on? Pneumonia or bronchitis or something like that on top of the collapsed trachea. It just seems... weird that it showed up and got bad so fast. Her breathing is noisier by the week.
Agreeing with above posts, has she been seeing the same vet for the duration of diagnosis/management?
Whenever there is a medical problem I'm not familiar with regarding my dogs, I seek a second opinion for nothing more than peace of mind. IIRC, when Recon went to the vet last year for the limp, my vet took x rays, said he was fine and gave me no further advice than to rest until it stopped - about a week. Got a second opinion with more advice/answers and better rehab options for sure. I am glad that I did or I could have let him really injure himself. Now over a year later, he's never shown trouble again.
I think it would really put you at ease/help if you can manage it/there is another good option in your area.
Whenever there is a medical problem I'm not familiar with regarding my dogs, I seek a second opinion for nothing more than peace of mind. IIRC, when Recon went to the vet last year for the limp, my vet took x rays, said he was fine and gave me no further advice than to rest until it stopped - about a week. Got a second opinion with more advice/answers and better rehab options for sure. I am glad that I did or I could have let him really injure himself. Now over a year later, he's never shown trouble again.
I think it would really put you at ease/help if you can manage it/there is another good option in your area.
Agree. Without REAL knowledge of CT, just pure speculation and knowing of a few yorkies who have it, the symptoms just seem off. I felt so bad for her in the video though.
I would for sure seek a second opinion, even find a specialist. I'm not saying your vet is not competent but I do think a new set of eyes/professional opinion is worth it.
I would for sure seek a second opinion, even find a specialist. I'm not saying your vet is not competent but I do think a new set of eyes/professional opinion is worth it.
Here's a little story of why second opinions are a good thing. Back when Lars was about 2...he had an eye that was reddish, kind of like an allergy thing. It wasn't both eyes, so I found that curious. When he was a year old...he had passed his CERF test with a veterinary ophthalmologist with flying colors which rules out things like cataracts and entropian (where the eyelids roll inwards.)
I took Lars to my vet to get it checked out...totally expecting something like an irritant or allergy eyes or something like that. She told me he had mild entropian and that surgery could fix that. I thought to myself....WTF? I told her that I would consider that option and left. I made an appointment with that same veterinary opthalmologist who cleared him on his CERF for a second opinion. Lars had a type of auto-immune response in this eye that medication cleared up and it never came back. The vet ophthalmologist was stunned and borderline horrified that an unnecessary surgery was recommended to me for Lars' eye. Thank god I had that CERF done and I knew there wasn't any entropian present to begin with. If I hadn't...I probably would have had the surgery done.
I would seriously consider getting a second opinion especially if Sass doesn't think symptoms add up from what she's hearing here.
I took Lars to my vet to get it checked out...totally expecting something like an irritant or allergy eyes or something like that. She told me he had mild entropian and that surgery could fix that. I thought to myself....WTF? I told her that I would consider that option and left. I made an appointment with that same veterinary opthalmologist who cleared him on his CERF for a second opinion. Lars had a type of auto-immune response in this eye that medication cleared up and it never came back. The vet ophthalmologist was stunned and borderline horrified that an unnecessary surgery was recommended to me for Lars' eye. Thank god I had that CERF done and I knew there wasn't any entropian present to begin with. If I hadn't...I probably would have had the surgery done.
I would seriously consider getting a second opinion especially if Sass doesn't think symptoms add up from what she's hearing here.
+1 to this... I know you had trouble just getting your vet to take you seriously back when this all started and had to really push just to find this much out. I am always a fan of trusting your instincts and I think your instincts are telling you something else is going on. Maybe it's right, maybe not, but pursuing it through a second opinion I think would be helpful.
I'm asking around for a good vet to go get another opinion. I have no idea which would be the best to go to since I've been with this vet since Nikki was around 6 or so. So a while.
My trainer thought maybe I should go to OSU. I thought you might need a referral though... I'm still going to have this appointment coming up next week with my vet.
Blah, I just.... stress. Lots of stress and worry.
My trainer thought maybe I should go to OSU. I thought you might need a referral though... I'm still going to have this appointment coming up next week with my vet.
Blah, I just.... stress. Lots of stress and worry.
You shouldn't need a referral, but it can be helpful to have one and have them send over all their records and x-rays and stuff. They'll have extra diagnostic equipment that most vets don't have. It will be a little expensive but worth it to know. Auggie got to visit the university vet for his bladder issues. It was expensive but now I 100% now what the deal is, so it's good.
The short of it is he doesn't always empty his bladder every time he pees. I actually knew this, he often will be peeing and then stop mid-pee to run off and chase a squirrel, but he doesn't always then go back and finish peeing. Not fully emptying your bladder can cause bacterial issues which results in UTI and eventually stones if left untreated. There's pretty much nothing to be done about it because it's behavioural. So our approach right now is a round of antibiotics every three months (about the duration he was going between infections.) Our other option was to do a low dose antibiotic year-round, but neither I nor my holistic vet were fans of that at this point. So far hitting him with a round every three months seems to be doing the job.
The way they found out was to do an ultrasound on him when he was full and didn't see anything. Then they took him out to pee and when they brought him back in to do another ultrasound, they were like "Hey, buddy, you didn't fully empty your bladder!" So they took him back out and he peed a second time, ultrasound again, this time he DID empty his bladder. So they found out he IS capable of emptying his bladder - he just doesn't. Mostly because he seems easily distracted. This all had to be determined by ultrasound which my vet didn't have - stuff they couldn't see just on an x-ray. So I'm glad I did it. It was kind of annoying to have them be like "So it's because he's ADD, sorry, can't fix it." But at least I knew it wasn't that he had some kind of major bladder disease or cancer.
I definitely feel like whenever something tricky is going on and the vet seems a little stumped, it's worth going to a university vet to take advantage of their additional diagnostics. Also helpful is they more often than not have a lab RIGHT THERE so there's no sending anything (like urine) away and having to wait for results, they can get your results in whatever amount of time it takes to just run the tests. Expensive, but worth it. Hopefully they will have some insights into Mia. My vet actually seemed like he was eager to work with Auggie because it was a tricky case, I think they enjoy a challenge. =P
The way they found out was to do an ultrasound on him when he was full and didn't see anything. Then they took him out to pee and when they brought him back in to do another ultrasound, they were like "Hey, buddy, you didn't fully empty your bladder!" So they took him back out and he peed a second time, ultrasound again, this time he DID empty his bladder. So they found out he IS capable of emptying his bladder - he just doesn't. Mostly because he seems easily distracted. This all had to be determined by ultrasound which my vet didn't have - stuff they couldn't see just on an x-ray. So I'm glad I did it. It was kind of annoying to have them be like "So it's because he's ADD, sorry, can't fix it." But at least I knew it wasn't that he had some kind of major bladder disease or cancer.
I definitely feel like whenever something tricky is going on and the vet seems a little stumped, it's worth going to a university vet to take advantage of their additional diagnostics. Also helpful is they more often than not have a lab RIGHT THERE so there's no sending anything (like urine) away and having to wait for results, they can get your results in whatever amount of time it takes to just run the tests. Expensive, but worth it. Hopefully they will have some insights into Mia. My vet actually seemed like he was eager to work with Auggie because it was a tricky case, I think they enjoy a challenge. =P