Help with breeding please

[shadowfacedanes]

There have been many replies suggesting that as a "BYB" I would automatically be a bad breeder. When I have time I will speak to that. .

Please do...because "Good" breeder and BYB are opposite ends of the spectrum, and the mark of a BYB is someone who is part of irresponsible breeding practices and thinks they are a "good" breeder because of the lies they feed themselves.

Also, I will post in a new thread a web page that suggests that purebred dogs are perhaps problematic. I have my own feelings on that issue but I don't care to defend my feelings on that in this thread.

Yes, purebreds DO have a myriad of problems also? Why? Because people who have no business breeding think it's a good idea to breed. Or because they want to make money..or because they have a good dog and want to make more just like it...or whatever lame reason they give for contributing to the pet overpopulation crisis.

The fact that I came here for advise should have suggested that

You'd be suprised. Many BYB's are just looking for other BYB's to validate themselves so they can "feel good" about the problems they've created or are about to create.

......

You never answered....what will happen when in two, three years you get a call that one of the puppies you helped create became crippled, or died, due to a condition that you could have prevented by leaving breeding to those who do it for the right reasons, and the right way?

What will you do when in 9 months, you get a call that the puppy is out of control and it has to GO, NOW....Are you going to take him back? Or will you shrug it off when the owners ditch him at the shelter or worse, on the side of the road?

Think you know people well enough that you'd NEVER sell to someone like that? Think again.

I just don't understand why everyone feels like they need to breed. Especially the average pet dog...we're not even talking a dog who has proven itself breed worthy... WHY?

::shrugs::


Oh, and once again, it's not my intentions to seem harsh...but I've involved myself in rescue for many years. Not just dropping toys off at the shelter, or adopting from the shelter, but actually cleaning up the messes that irresponsible breeders create,. It makes one a little jaded, so pardon my forwardness in suggestion to you that you spay your dog, enjoy her, and not add to the overpopulation.

 

[Red_ACD_for_me]

Excellent post Shadow :hail: Mary, first off I want to say that I think it is great that you have stuck around and replied to the thread to express your thoughts and opinions Tells me what kind of person you are your intentions maybe good in breeding your girl but just as reasons suggested by myself and others it is just not a wise choice and something you really need to consider not doing. There are currently 2,758 golden retrievers and or mixes on petfinder awaiting homes and on death row. There are also 1,538 poodles awaiting new homes as well. That right there is something to make you reconsider breeding your girl.......................

 

[Zoom]

I suggest that Mary Elizabeth does a search in the Breeding Forum for Mach1 and the threads that related to her breeding her APBT Dixie and all the trouble and heartache that ensued from that. Not to mention Spiritus's recent post about have to euth a 3 day old puppy for health reasons in a litter that follows to the T what it means to be a responsible breeder.

 

[lakotasong]

It is true that, if you breed this dog, you would not be considered "ethical" or "responsible" as per the definition of the words in relation to dog breeding. You would not be doing what is in the best interest of your individual bitch, nor in the best interest of your breed.

Please check out the following articles to better educate yourself:

Golden Retriever Club of America's Code of Ethics

Golden Retriever Club of America's Statement Regarding Goldendoodles (see also the links at the bottom of this document to "Response From Board of Directors" and "The X-Factor")

The Golden Retriever Club of America discusses "Breeding Your Golden Retriever: Consider Your Motives, Resources, and Quality of the Dog".

There are currently 2,748 Golden Retrievers and predominantly Golden mixes in need of rescue on PetFinder.com at the time of my writing.

Golden Retrievers were the 4th most registered breed in 2006, and the 2nd most registered breed in 2005 per AKC statistics, with 42,962 individual Goldens being registered in 2006 (source).

Golden Retrievers ranked 9th in popularity in 2006 per AKC litter registration statistics, with 14,885 litters being registered. In 2005, they ranked 8th in popularity with 15,863 litters being registered.

Please read the Lawrence County Humane Society Abuse and Adoption Center's Comparison of Traits of the Responsible Breeder vs the Backyard Breeder.

Please read ShelterDog Rescue's "Are You a Backyard Breeder?" article.

Please read a personal favorite of mine, The Backyard Breeders' and Puppy Millers' Big Book of Old Excuses.

 

[bubbatd]

Glad you posted again . I think she gets the picture folks ..... and she has over a year to think about it .

 

[ChRotties]

I wholeheartedly agree with all of the advice you have been given here re breeding your Golden bitch. I may be relatively new to this forum, but I am not new to dogs.

The ONLY reason to EVER breed is to better the breed. Since you are going the "doodle" route, the answer to that is NO. Solution: DON'T BREED HER.

Ask yourself these questions: 1. What do I hope to accomplish by breeding my bitch? 2. Are you willing to be RESPONSIBLE IN WRITING for each and every puppy you produce FOR ITS LIFETIME? (meaning, taking back the ones that don't work out in homes for whatever reason, offering a gurantee against genetic defects until at least 2 yrs of age?)

Anyone can breed dogs.....these are called bybs.
And anyone that PURPOSELY chooses to breed more mixed breed dogs is a byb.

 

[Saje]

You said that being a byb wouldn't automatically make you a bad breeder but by definition that is exactly what you would be. That is the definition of a term. A responsible breeder is the complete opposite. They want to improve the breed and spend more money on the actual breeding than they would ever get back from puppy fees. They mentor under other breeders and compete their dogs in a sport or show to prove them are up to breed standard and will enhance the breed. Health testing goes way beyond a check up from the vet.

It doesn't matter what the statistics are in your shelter. They vary all over the continent. What matters is that if you do go forward with this you take responsibility for all the puppies and make sure that none of them ever end up in shelters. This doesn't stop you from adding to the pet population but at least those dogs will have a guarantee. Home inspections are necessary and so are puppy contracts. More on that here: http://www.peteducation.com/article.cfm?cls=2&cat=1671&articleid=915

I like this artile on responible breeding:

http://members.tripod.com/GWDalmatianClub/Dalinfo/repbreeder.htm

HOW TO RECOGNIZE A REPUTABLE DOG BREEDER

by Linda Hazen Lewin

So, you've decided the pet for you is a purebred dog...good for you! Maybe. The question is, how do you find a reputable breeder? There are so many ads in the newspaper and so much conflicting information, and most of the books you read only mention the positive characteristics of the various breeds. (Common sense tells you every breed can't be as perfect as it is described!) How do you find someone who will be honest with you about their breed so you can make a truly informed choice?

The following are some of the typical characteristics of a reputable breeder:

1. Reputable breeders only produce a litter with the goal of improving their breed and with the full intent of keeping a puppy from the litter with which to continue their efforts. They do not breed to make money, to supply the pet market during a wave of breed popularity, to give the kids a sex education, or simply because they happen to have two dogs of the same breed on the premises. These last are all spurious reasons to add more dogs to the current population. If the breeder has produced a litter for a silly reason, beware!

2. Reputable breeders nearly always belong to a local or national breed club and they actively compete with their dogs. Competitions include licensed dog shows, field trials, obedience trials, herding trials, tracking events, earth dog trials and sled dog racing (among others). Reputable breeders know that AKC registration alone does not confer or imply quality or breeding value, any more than a DMV registration means you have a top quality car. Competition with other well-bred dogs helps to gauge whether a given dog is worthy of being bred; whether it offers its breed virtues that are worth reproducing. If the breeder does not belong to any dog organizations or compete with their dogs, beware!

3. Reputable breeders are willing and eager to spend time with you, explaining, teaching and advising you about their breed. They will make the disadvantages of owning their breed crystal clear, and it may be the first topic of conversation! No breed is perfect for everyone, and the responsible breeder wants to be absolutely sure that you really want, and are prepared to care for, this kind of dog for the life of the dog, not just during the "cute puppy stage". If the breeder does not go into breed peculiarities, beware!

4. Reputable breeders will screen you carefully, to assure your suitability for owning their breed. They will not sell a large, active dog to an apartment dweller or to someone without a fence, for example, nor a tiny toy dog to a home with small children. It is cruel to place a dog in an unsuitable home, and unethical to strap people with an unsuitable dog. A reputable breeder will refuse a sale, regardless of any personal financial strain or the amount of work involved, rather than place any dog in an unworkable situation. If the breeder does not question you closely about your home, your family, and your expectations of the dog, beware!

5. Reputable breeders sell only healthy stock, fully vetted, and guaranteed for some reasonable length of time after the sale. Their dogs are tested for any genetic deficiencies which can be detected by the age at which the dog is sold. Puppies should never be offered for sale any younger than 7 weeks of age, and preferably 8 weeks. If they are, you may be sure they have not had all their shots. Adult dogs offered for sale should be completely up to date on shots, recently wormed and heartworm-tested. Records of all veterinary treatments and testing should be offered to you in writing. If vaccinations are not complete and up to date, breed-appropriate testing for genetic defects hasn't been done (or the breeder says "Oh, that's not a problem in this breed" when you know it is), puppies are offered for sale at an extremely young age, or the breeder's dogs appear unwell, beware!

6. Reputable breeders offer, or even require, that any dog they sell be returned to them if your situation changes so that you cannot keep the dog. This applies whether the dog is 10 weeks old or 10 years old. No responsible breeder wants their dogs to end life in the pound, on the streets, or shuffled from one unsuitable home to another because the dog's family can't keep it any longer. Many breeders are also involved, on some level, in breed "rescue" work. When notified, they spend their own time and money to collect the abandoned dog, have it vetted, trained and socialized if necessary, and find it a loving home. While a breeder might not specifically mention involvement in rescue work, if he or she cranks out multiple litters a year, acts as a broker, or makes no mention of taking a dog back from you if your situation changes, chances are they are more concerned with taking your money than with taking responsibility for the puppies they have produced...beware!

7. Reputable breeders stay in touch with you on a regular basis to see how you're getting on with your new dog. They do not just sell you the dog and then disappear, leaving you to cope with problems on your own. This is probably the greatest advantage to buying your dog from an experienced breeder. You not only get a healthy, well-adjusted companion, you also get a lifetime of information, advice and assistance from an expert who cares deeply about your success with the animal he has sold to you. If the breeder takes the stance that "all sales are final", beware!

Remember, it is up to you, the purchaser, to make your choice wisely and to do your homework. Talk at length with as many breeders as possible, quiz each one on the above items and about their breed, and look at lots of dogs. A reputable breeder will be impressed and reassured that you are concerned about what you are doing, rather than impulse-buying. Find a breeder with whom you are comfortable, and whose dogs you like, and pick out your dream pet. Result: everybody wins!

At the very least do the proper health tests, find a mentor and wait until your dog is old enough. Hopefully by then you will have changed your mind.

 

[sam]

Hi Sam,
Thanks for your thougtful post. Can you please point me to the statistics that suggest that BYB's breed 70% of the dogs that end up in shelters?
Thanks.

edit: I would agree that fewer goldens (for instance) end up in shelters, but just as few "doodles" end up in shelters also, at least in the shelters in my area.

I did a quick search for that article/study when I posted. I must not have book marked it and I don't remember how I stumbled across it. I'll look again when I have some time and PM it to you or post it in this thread.

 

[sam]

Haven't found exactly what I was looking for but it would appear that the study was done by Cornell University, some similar stats have been gathered by the HSUS and have been quoted all over the place.

Here are some links which basically quote the same stats:

http://vetmedicine.about.com/gi/dyn...Chronicle/99/10.28.99/pet_overpopulation.html

http://vetmedicine.about.com/library/weekly/aa022302a.htm

http://www.adoptarescuepet.org/byb.htm

http://www.petrescueonline.org/newsinfo/archives/overpopulation.htm

http://www.nopuppymillscanada.ca/back_yard_breeders.htm

http://www.thewagway.com/consider_carefully_where_your_ne.htm

Hope that helps. Certainly food for thought anyway.

 

[Cassiepeia]

Not much more to add to all the great advice and info here, except I wanted to say this. Speaking as someone who has a dog from a shelter that was very obviously from a byb originally, I hope the irresponsible person who bred him and gave him his heart problems has the worst and most tragic life possible and I hope they live a very long time to suffer painfully through it.

My boy did nothing to deserve such bad health. The people who decided they wanted to breed, despite not knowing what they were doing or thinking about the consequences, are scum in my book. They've put him through hell for no reason other than their selfishness.

I totally agree that if you want the puppy experience, do some good and foster a pregnant bitch. Don't force your dog to give birth for your own pleasure.
My best wishes are with your dog and only your dog. I feel sorry for her. By the sounds of it she's already been through so much suffering in her life before you got her, she deserves to live the life of a privledged pet and not be forced into giving birth to puppies.

Cass.

 

[ToscasMom]

I feel my grandchildren will enjoy puppies also as my children did when our Irish Setter had 13 of them after the vet said she was sterile. We still talk about how much fun it was.

Try going to a shelter and adopting some puppies. It should be just as much "fun" and won't contribute to the overpopulation of mixed breeds.

 

[Beanie]

My boy did nothing to deserve such bad health. The people who decided they wanted to breed, despite not knowing what they were doing or thinking about the consequences, are scum in my book. They've put him through hell for no reason other than their selfishness.

Bolded for emphasis.
I cannot agree with this more.

 

[noludoru]

Mary, please go look at all the links that have been shown in the thread for you. Even if you only breed her at the age of two AND you health test and breed her to a dog that's been health tested means squat. She CAME from an unreputable, BAD breeder. No dog that comes from that sort of breeder should ever be bred. Her parents and grandparents and siblings and aunts and uncles were most likely not health-tested, and even if they were, she still could throw a pup with health issues no matter how great her relatives are and how great the stud's relatives are.


If you think the things we've said here are silly, please don't breed. It's not "strong feelings" that spur us on in trying to help, it is our mutual love of ALL dogs and our hopes for their futures.

Backyard breeders are not responsible pet owners. They think they love the dogs but it's not really true because they don't really want to be bothered with doing all that it takes to breed ethically. They love feeling important when they say "I breed "Pure Breed dogs"". But breeding pet dogs isn't something to be proud of. It's a shame on our society. It's the reason for the killing that goes on in shelters. Why do you want to be part of that?

The above quote is from http://www.adoptarescuepet.org/byb.htm

 

[Lizmo]

Mary, I know you want your grandkids to have the chance to see pups born and then raised. And if we needed more dogs as "pets" then, I am sure your golden would be a good dog to breed to make pets.

But, Mary, please listen, we don't need more pets! All responsible breeders are breeding for a purpose, whether it be showing or working.

Have you asked these questions?
Can you afford to pay $500 or more for a stud fee? Take back one if not all the puppies when they are 10 years old and have huge health problems that their owners don't want to pay? Pay for a C-Section if your bitch needs one? Feed, Train, Clean, Socialize the pups for 8-10 weeks? Are you willing to spend the money to on health testing? Pay for huge vet bills for your pregnant bitch?

 

[wolfsoul]

I breed dogs. Believe me, it is no walk in the park. Unless I take shortcuts like you will do (and believe me, you will -- since you do not plan on showing/trialling, and will likely never find a health certified dog to breed to, you will be cutting corners).

Breeding is expensive.
OFA hips/Elbows - $100-200 to x-ray, $35 OFA fee, $15 to send.
CERF eyes - $40 at a clinic ($100 if you can't find a clinic), $10.50 for CERF registration
OFA thyroid - $300-400 full panel, $7.50 for OFA certification
OFA Cardiac - $200-300 full exam, $7.50 for OFA certification.

That is over $1000 just to health certify.
A health certified standard poodle is almost always a show standard poodle and since stud fee is generally price of a puppy, you will be charged $1-2000 for stud fee. But since you wil never find a reputable standard poodle breeder who wants to breed to your bitch, you will need to find an unneutered standard poodle who, based on it's unaltered state, will come from questionable lineage (untested, and may not even be purebred) and you will be charged $500-800. If you are lucky you might find a breeder who health tests and shows but is still not ethical and will breed to your bitch -- you may have to pay $800 to ship Maya and then another $800 to ship her back. Of course the plane ride culd be stressful and she could absorb the puppies so you will have to try again.

Now the whelping and the raising. Goldendoodles, believe it or not, are generally much larger than their golden and poodle counterparts. In my grooming parlour we get doodles in almost daily and they are usually atleast 28-32 inches (32 inches is the size of a great dane) out of normal sized parents. So, Maya has a hard time delivering puppies, as goldens are meant to give birth to goldens. You will need to have $1000 saved up for a C-section, and since most dogs give birth at the most inopportune times, you will also need $4-500 for a late night emergency fee.

You will need a suitable whelping pen with a heat lamp incase it is cold. Whelping boxes can cost you upwards of $500 but if you build one yourself it can be cheaper than that. If you work, you will need to take time off or hire someone to moniter the pups and make sure Maya does not kill them. You need to buy formula incase Maya decides to reject the puppies. After all, many goldens are not mentally mature at 2 years -- she may just be a pup still. So you will need to stay up all night feeding pups their formula. Unfortunatly formula does not guarantee health and the pups really need the antibodies in the milk so you may have sick pups on your hand that need extra vet care and will need extra vet care their entire lives -- since you bred them you are responsible for them. My girl and her littermates for some reason did not recieve antibodies from their mother's milk and had full blown parvo at 5 weeks of age. Cost my co-breeder over $2000. You will spend a great deal of money on extra food for mom and pups. Remember that your pups will need a few round of vaccinations (or nosodes). They will also need to have their dewclaws removed, that can run you up a few hundred dollars. Each puppy needs to go home with a puppy package.

I would wait until she is 5 or 6 to be honest. Since she is backyard bred, that is a 95% of her having health issues, primarily thyroid ones. 99% of the golden retrievers that come into the shop I work at have thyroid problems. They may not show up even in a health test until she is 5 or 6, so I would wait to breed her until then so you have a better idea of her health. And since you haven't researched her pedigree, I would also start that right away. It involves looking at her siblings, parents, aunts, unles, etc etc. You need to get the whole picture, because she would be a carrier of a disease and you could be breeding to another carrier. I spend hours each night researching pedigrees so I know exactly where problems lie and what I can do to avoid them. Unfortunatly your pedigree will likely be difficult to research because she is not from titled lines (I am sure). It is important though, because I can't count the number of times I've heard about breeders being called to hear that 4 of the puppies from their last litter are blind. Theor breeding dogs carried PRA, and they did not know. Those carriers bred affected PRA dogs and the dogs went blind. Carriers can remain for hundreds of years so it is important that you look very far back.

It kills me to know that I spend alot of money so that I can show and trial and test and prove my dogs and breed and buy only the best dogs possible to BETTER A BREED, and then someone can go out and make mutts and cut all of the corners and make a few bucks while I lose thousands. With all of the dogs dying in shelters, we should be breeding to better a breed...not to create more.

And on the subject of doodles, the only nice doodles I've met have been the ones imported straight from Australia who are several generation doodles and bred with temperament in mind. I live in a highly doodle populated area and half of them are very spooky, shy, terrified of their own shadow type neurotic personalities..the other are hyper, uncontrollable, constantly jumping and scratching, way overly excitable and happy..My friend had her eye scratched by a goldendoodle. They are so large and unmanageable. I greatly dislike groomign them, except those two that came from Australia. If you want a goldendoodle I would suggest getting one from a multi-generation breeder that used show lines. I know many of these dogs that were placed in shelters because their owner thought they would be "hypoallergenic" or "non-shedding" or "golden temperament with poodle hair." ..And since they are unpredictable because they are mutts, you never know what you are going to get. Thisis probably one of the most dissapointing "breeds" that people every created. So many expectations that were never met.

Remember that when those pups are three years old and now have hip dysplasia, heart problems, thyroid issues, or eye problems, because you are their breeder you are responsbile for them...Many breeders are sued when they refuse to pay for these issues or go back on their puppy replacement deal. My friend just spent $5000 on several surgeries for her puppy with hip dysplasia..the pup was diagnosed at 4 months of age and is now just over a year and can't walk. Will you be responsible for that or will you write a heavy contract that makes sure you won't be. Many many years ago breeding was easy. These days, with the amount of irresponsiblity in breeding, it is not.

 

[shadowfacedanes]

Wolfsoul, all I can say is....You Rock. :hail:

 

[Boemy]

Mary, we have a massive pet overpopulation problem. If you want your kids to enjoy puppies, go to your shelter and adopt some, then adopt them out to the people who you would've given your dog's puppies to. You may even be able to foster a pregnant bitch and let her give birth.

But if you're determined to breed, you should do the OFA hip and elbow tests and the CERF eye test before you even consider breeding.

But frankly, you shouldn't be breeding. I'm sure your dog is wonderful, but what WOULD happen if every person with a wonderful dog bred it? Seriously think about the answer. My dog was wonderful. My cats are wonderful. Whenever someone enquires about my wonderful animals, I directed them to the animal shelter they came from instead of bringing more lives into a world already overcrowded with dogs and cats.

 

[RedyreRottweilers]

Please make this a sticky...

 

[DanL]

Only doodles I have ever met.. golden or lab crosses were unmanageable. Hyper, endless barking. That's 6 at the dog park, 4 in classes, 2 in the neighbourhood. There was one I'd never met before in a workshop on attention yesterday, It spun circles the whole class, that is when it wasn't barking endlessly. Just what the world needs.. more of these..

Same here, there were 2 in the class after ours, and both were just as you describe. I was amazed since you hear about what great dogs they are supposed to be.

 

[ToscasMom]

I don't think we will be hearing from Mary on this any longer. She thinks it's "fun" that her grandchildren will get to see how to bring unneeded puppies into the world and how absolutely cool it is to help with overpopulation of mutts that have special names.