Help with breeding please

[mary elizabeth]

Hi to all,

I visited this site when I was having problems training my golden retriever puppy Maya. As it turned out I learned that she had "dirty dog syndrome" and was advised that patience was the best way to deal with it. She came from a friend who had never raised puppies before and was not well set up for the experience, and as a result the pups were in their own poop and pee a lot. When I brought her home she smelled of urine and even seemed to prefer to lay on a towel she had peed on--perhaps it reminded her of being with her litter mates.

Maya is now ready to go into her second heat. I had hoped to breed her to a chocolate poodle, and had expected to be moved into an old farm by now that would have been perfect for raising puppies. As it turned out, the farm house burned to the ground the night before we were to close--most likely arson as several people wanted the land, but not the house.

I would still like to breed Maya but I am worried about finding myself in the same situation that she was in as a pup. Maya is an indoor dog and of course the puppies would be kept indoors when they were small. I would be glad to keep them indoors till they are ready to go since I am retired and would have all my time to spend with them. Furthermore, Maya wants to be with me every minute and would not be happy outdoors even if I did have a shed, or whatever.

If the puppies were just a few and small I feel I could figure something out. But Maya is from a litter of 13 and her aunt had 15. I did look at the whelping frames here at this site, but they would not hold so many big puppies as I might expect to have. Is there a way to have the puppies indoors and still be sure that they learn to poop and pee in only a certain area? Would there be problems since Maya was a "dirty dog" when she was younger?

Thanks in advance for all replys.

 

[SisMorphine]

Does Maya have titles on her for conformation, obedience, or any sport? Is she a working dog? Does she have any therapy dog titles? Has she been health tested for hips, elbows, etc? What kennel club is she registered with? Do you already have homes lined up for more puppies than you are expecting?

If you do some digging on this site you'll find some good info on what makes a responsible breeder, and what makes a back yard breeder. With the state that dogs (and all companion animals) are in today, no one should be breeding unless they have reached the highest of standards with their dogs. Oh, and her second heat means she's about 1-1.5 years old, correct? The absolute youngest a dog should be bred is 2, but even then many people suggest waiting.

I think whether or not the puppies will be "dirty dogs" is the last thing you need to think about and consider right now. I'll try to find some links for you on responsible breeding if I continue to have a lull here at work.

 

[SisMorphine]

Actually the stickies in this section are pretty good:
http://www.chazhound.com/forums/showthread.php?t=27051
http://www.chazhound.com/forums/showthread.php?t=787

 

[Zoom]

I'm just going to go ahead and say it. Don't breed Maya. She's probably an awesome pet and the love of your life, but nothing worthy of being bred. Especially since you're wanting to make goldendoodles. You might have higher intentions than we know of, but generally that just speaks of using your dog to earn you money. She's not old enough to be bred, you don't know anything about how to successfully breed a litter if your biggest concern right now is "dirty dog syndrome" and not "what happens if Maya needs a C-section? What am I prepared to do to save her life? How will I feel if she dies from trying to whelp too big of a litter?"

Do yourself and Maya a favor and call your vet to schedual a spay appointment. She'll live longer so you'll have her around more to love.

 

[dr2little]

^^^^^Ditto:hail: :hail:

 

[~Jessie~]

I agree with Zoom. Please get Maya spayed.

 

[Red_ACD_for_me]

Oh my Mary, PLEASE rethink breeding Maya and get her spayed instead. We don't need anymore doodles being bred improperly and ending up in shelters. I hope you reconsider.............It doesn't sound like Maya was from a very reputable breeder herself and when breeding the parents they should be health checked for eyes, hips, genetic defects, etc. I am sorry about your farm home, that must have been terrible but instead of breeding your baby why not put your time and efforts into rescue work and placing dogs who are in need of homes. Just an idea for you but if I were you I wouldn't breed.

 

[bubbatd]

Echoes ...dittos etc to all the above . !!!!----tenfold !!!

 

[mary elizabeth]

I did do some checking and I see that it is important to wait till Maya is at least two before I breed her.

As for the rest of the "help" you have all offered, I am just very angry right now! To suggest that I'm only looking to make some money and that since Maya is just a "good ol' dog" without any special awards and such she should be spayed is uncalled for. My sister's three boys all raise exceptional hunting dogs and they would never say I should not breed Maya. There is such a thing as a good family dog, and I feel that a poodle cross would result in a very good dog. Why you feel that this idea suggests I'm only looking for money is beyond me!

I am a grandmother and I am retired, and I feel that I will make a very good dog mother as well since I now have the time. I feel my grandchildren will enjoy puppies also as my children did when our Irish Setter had 13 of them after the vet said she was sterile. We still talk about how much fun it was.

Here is a picture of Maya taken yesterday:

http://www.flickr.com/photos/gandydancer/sets/72157600269234059/

 

[mary elizabeth]

Please explain why a Goldendoodle would be more likely to end up in a shelter?

 

[~Jessie~]

I don't mean to be harsh, but if you breed her you will be the definition of a backyard breeder. Many, many bybs' breed not just for money... but because they have sweet and loving dogs, and it would be "fun" to raise a litter of puppies.

There are PLENTY of puppies and dogs in shelters... there are way more great pet quality dogs in this world than there are homes for. Thousands upon thousands of animals in shelters are put to sleep daily because there are not enough homes for them. There are many doodle crosses in shelters as it is.

As for Maya, you stated that she came from a bad breeder... she was covered in urine and poop. There is a VERY good chance of her passing on congenital defects to her puppies. Most health problems in dogs do not arise until the dog is at least 2 years old. Imagine having a litter of 10 pups all with hip dysplacia and heart conditions by the age of 5.

Also, can you guarantee that these puppies will all end up in forever homes? I read somewhere that only 25% of all dogs stay in one home for their entire lives. If Maya has 12 puppies, that means that as a responsible breeder it will be your duty to take back 8 of them at any point in their lives if their owners can't keep them.

Please rethink your decision.

 

[bubbatd]

Maya is a lovely pup , and I'm sure she's a fantastic dog , as most Goldens are . However , if she came to you in the condition you say , I would surmise that she came from a BYB. You asked for advise .... and that's what you were given .

 

[sam]

I'm sorry you feel angry with what the others have said. I'm sure Maya is a lovely dog and I can understand why you are interested in breeding her, but I feel you should do much more research on several aspects of it before going ahead. I hope you will take this in the spirit is was intended.

Some important considerations in my mind are:

There is a massive pet overpopulation in North America. In the US alone between 8-10 million dogs/puppies are euthanised in shelters every year. They are not euthanised because they are old or sick, they are killed simply because there are not enough people for the amount of dogs so they are unwanted. Those are "plain old good family dogs" being killed through no fault of their own. I don't see how anyone who cares about dogs can in good conscience add to that problem- the "fun" of having a litter doesn't justify adding to the pet overpopulation problem in my mind.

I agree with the others that the only people who should be breeding are breeders who go to the effort and expense to research pedigrees and have the knowledge to better their chosen breed. Those breeders tend to have waiting lists for puppies and homes lined up before the breeding has even taken place.

Ethical breeding practices in my book include really knowing what you are doing so that you can best care for the bitch throughout her pregnancy and during the welping.

It means knowing her lines and what issues come along with that and carefully selecting a male whose pedigree will make for the most best possible traits and balance out weaknesses from the bitch's pedigree. If Maya was well bred by a responsible breeder she would have been sold on a spay-neuter contract.

It involves getting health testing for genetic/heritable disease which isn't cheap. Goldens and Poodles carry many of the same genetic health problems so those really need to be screened for. Then there's knowing all that you need to know to get the pups off to a good start which is an awful lot fo work even for experienced breeders.

Someone has already mentioned the potential risk to the bitch and the cost of complications like c-sections. There are also costs such as tail docking if you end up with poodley long whip tails, dew claw removal etc not to mention basic vet care for both bitch and pups.

Done properly, breeding is a huge undertaking, can cost an awful lot and not something to be entered into lightly.

 

[Red_ACD_for_me]

Please explain why a Goldendoodle would be more likely to end up in a shelter?

There is nothing to explain...they are mixed breeds that are a designer dog fad right now and nothing else. There are so many irresponsible people breeding them that they are ending up in shelters.... period! They get it into peoples heads how great, smart, intelligent and hypo allergenic they are and I have seen so many that look so different and yes people still have allergies to them. I was nothing but nice and very sincere in my post and I still want to help you understand that breeding your girl isn't the best idea unless you are planning to do all the health testing necessary for the golden breed and breed her to another golden and I never once said that you were doing it for money , why does it have to be a poodle? Why create more mutts? Oh, and having pups for your grandchildren to experience is not a good reason.

Bubbatd is a grandmother and used to breed goldens and she also gave you the advice that we did...................

 

[Saje]

There is no reason to get angry. We aren't angry with you even though you want to contribute to the already over-populated pet population. I'm sure you'd be a great mom to all the pups but please consider fostering or adopting dogs that really need homes rather than creating more of them. There are so many. Check out www.petfinder.com to see how many there are just in your area.

There are very few reasons to breed dogs and 'because I want to" is not a good one. If you learn at all about supply and demand you'll see why dog lovers are so against the numerous backyard breeders. It's such a sad reality.

 

[bubbatd]

I agree with Red if you are gun-ho with wanting to breed . When Maya is 2 yrs old have her tested--- hips , elbows, heart and eyes .Then starting looking for a KC Standard Golden stud with the same testing . If you are going through the cost , time and effort , why have mutt pups ???

 

[noludoru]

I wholeheartedly agree with everything that's been said in this thread, and it's not meant to be mean, just to help you and Maya. So many people have amazing dogs, and I sure bet Maya is wonderful, but thousands of other people already have their own 'Maya' and are breeding theirs to mutts to create mutts without any thought to where those little babies are going, and whether the will have homes or no. We're here to try and help you.

 

[AnimalLoverCatRescuer]

I think the bottom line is to wait until she is 2 years and you can have her hips and elbows tested. Make sure that is done on the male you want to breed with too. THEN, even though we really still don't agree with intentionally breeding mixed breed dogs, at least you know whether or not she is healthy or not to be bred. I don't just mean the vet said she was excellent at her last check up and she has all her shots. You really NEED to have her hips and elbows tested to be a step closer to being a responsible breeder.

I think when we freak out about inexperienced people breeding, it is usually because the breeder to be has no idea about the important things like these tests that HAVE to be done, they just think I love my dog and the vet said she is healthy! But it is so important, otherwise you cannot guarentee these pups will not have hip displacia and other GENETIC problems when they are older.

 

[MysticRealm]

You also must make sure the male is 100% tested as well. Please don't breed more stupid golden poodle crosses, there are so many of these dogs. Poodles are an absolutely amazing breed all on their own there is no need to cross it with anything else. If you want crosses like that go onto petfinder. In my city alone there was far more than 50 poodle mixes, poodle mixes that were dumped into shelters and rescues, go adopt one or more of those. And best yet you don't risk you dog dying while having the puppies, and you won't have to worry about finding the puppies homes (which you need to do before you breed, not afterwards)

 

[mrose_s]

please don't breed her.

even if her pups don't end up in a shelter/pound. you'll be takinmg away homes from the pups that ARE in shelters/pounds/rescues. animals just as loving that will die because they were bred from people that didn't care about the well being of the pups.

have a look at these
http://brightlion.com/InHope/InHope_en.aspx
http://youtube.com/watch?search=&mode=related&v=D-S-FeR0YwY

puppy raising is hard and very expensive if done responsibily