Help with breeding please

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#21
I was almost talked into breeding Gabbi to a reitred police officer's dog. He kept at me, saying they would be kick ass dogs and great working dogs. All of it was true but I wouldn't have the knowledge or time or support to raise puppies. It wasn't for the money at all, it was for what looked to be 2 great dogs passing on their genes. On her first birthday after her 1st heat she was spayed and I now know it was the best decision ever. We both have their paperwork and lineage but something kept telling me don't do it.
Back yard breeding is a bad idea.
 

showpug

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#22
What would happen if everyone bred their dog because it was a superb pet and great family dog? No, HONESTLY, what would happen???? We would have even more dogs in shelters than we already do and the pet over-population problem would be even more devastating than it already is.

So, with that being said there has to be other criteria to make a dog worthy of being bred. This is why proving your dog is so important. Titles along with health testing certifications is just the beginning. Breeding mixes on purpose shouldn't be a thought in your head if you care about the future of dogs. There are so many mixed accidental litters that produce puppies that need homes. These puppies end up in shelters everywhere. Our local shelter a couple months back ended up with over 20 golden/poodle mixes dropped off by a breeder that probably had the best of intentions and didn't know any better. She got overwhelmed and dumped the dogs. You are lucky. You have been given the chance and opportunity to educate yourself on the subject.

I am sure Maya is wonderful. Love her for who and what she is, a pet.

If you really want to be a "dog mommy" maybe consider fostering a puppy in need or pregnant dogs in need of fostering through your local shelter. Or, buy a show prospect, show it to it's championship, health test and breed resposibly to a sire with the same merit and do it right.

Best of luck.
 

~Tucker&Me~

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#23
Would you consider fostering an already pregnant dog? That way, you can go through the experience withought doing damage to an already WAY overpopulated species. It would also be a good way to educate the kids about the IMPORTANCE of spaying and neutering pet animals :).

~Tucker
 

Maxy24

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#24
Would you consider fostering an already pregnant dog? That way, you can go through the experience withought doing damage to an already WAY overpopulated species. It would also be a good way to educate the kids about the IMPORTANCE of spaying and neutering pet animals .
That's a GREAT idea! You want the kids to experience it so they will and this way you will be helping dogs that need help not hurting them by adding more to a world that already has too many. I'm sure your dog is an AWESOME PET, how would you feel if your awesome pet died from birthing, or a retained puppy? It happens and I don't think you should make your pet go through carrying and birthing then raising puppies when you could spay here and continue to have a happy healthy pet.

Like everyone said if you really want to breed your golden get her OFA and CERF tested. Then get her involved in showing, real showing, not just 4-H. If she gets a few championships then you can breed her to a male who has done the same. I don't like breeding for mutts because it is a fad which will fade or continue among those who just want to make money (not saying you but the majority of people breeding mixes are just doing it because that is what people want so they know they will make a lot of money off of it) leading to more unwanted dogs. I could breed mixes if my dog and the neighbor's had an oops then I give the babies a cool name and sell them. I would make the same money as a breeder who has done all the work that makes them responsible (showing, testing, waiting for years to make sure they have a dog that is the best suited to breed and add dogs to this world) and that is just not fair.

People should breed to better the breed dogs were made in a certain way or a certain reason and there are people working to make sure the breed they love stays in that form to that standard that keeps them best suited for the job they were created for.

How would you feel if the puppy you give to his new family died four years later of a genetic defect because YOU did not get the all clear on the OFA and CERF from both parents. YOU would be responsible for killing their dog. They will feel horrible knowing if they had gone to a responsible breeder they would have had a fifteen year friend.


I don't want to make you angry I don't think any of us do but this is a very serious thing, it is LIFE you are dealing with. life that you control and choose whether you are giving them the best chance at a long healthy life.

If I were you I would foster a pregnant girl and raise some puppies who need your help.
 

~Jessie~

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#25
I also think it would be a very great and rewarding experience to foster a pregnant dog! I've known a couple of people who have done this. Another great thing about it is that the rescue will cover the vet bills for mom and pups, and will also screen homes for the puppies!
 
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#26
I did do some checking and I see that it is important to wait till Maya is at least two before I breed her.
Why? Do you even know? Because at two years of age, most dogs are developed enough, mentally and physically, to breed. Most. Some aren't, and they have birthing complications and die, or the litter dies, or insert horrible whelping disaster here.

Because at two, that is when they can be certified clear of health problems. Genetic problems that can be passed along to their offspring. Will you certifiy that Maya's hips are okay? Her eyes? Her heart? Her thyroid? Or will you be another gullible person who says "Oh she's fine" and then shuck your responsibility onto the people who buy the puppies?


There is such a thing as a good family dog, and I feel that a poodle cross would result in a very good dog. Why you feel that this idea suggests I'm only looking for money is beyond me!
You're right. There are such things as good family dogs. They die buy the thousands every day in shelters because people (like yourself) feel the need to make more. We don't need more "good family dogs" ....we need more "responsible" breeders who only breed for the RIGHT reasons.

I am a grandmother and I am retired, and I feel that I will make a very good dog mother as well since I now have the time.
So foster a litter from your local shelter. Your shelter will appreciate greatly, and you'll be doing a wonderful thing.

I feel my grandchildren will enjoy puppies also as my children did when our Irish Setter had 13 of them after the vet said she was sterile. We still talk about how much fun it was.
Will your grandchildren enjoy watching your bitch die in whelp? It could happen.

Please explain why a Goldendoodle would be more likely to end up in a shelter?
Fad. Fad. Fad. Fad. Fad.

Sorry to be harsh, but some folks need harsh. Breeding isn't sunshine and rainbows. It's life, (possibly death)..... blood, sweat and tears. And it takes a hell of a lot more than "a good family dog" to be breeding material.

PLEASE re-think your decision. Please don't be someone who contributes to the problem.

There are many options. If you just love puppies, foster a litter.
If you want your grandkids to enjoy the miracle of puppy birth, show them a video. Don't bring more puppies into the world when so many are dying daily already because of lack of homes.

Ask yourself this also....when you sell those puppies - do you think that's it? What if two years later, you get a call from an angry puppy buyer who found that the puppy you sold them had severe hip dysplasia and needed major surgery. Are you going to take responsibility for that? You created it!! Or worse, what if you get a call three years down the road and find out one of the lives you created dropped dead at age three because of congenital heart defects. That happened to me....My heart, my beloved dane, died at age three....his heart gave out. His breeder didn't health test, she was just breeding for "more good dogs". Well, his breeder caused me a LOT of heartache. Don't be one of those breeders. Please.
 
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Dekka

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#27
I hope the original poster is still reading this thread.

You probably shouldn't breed but if you are going to anyway here are my 2 cents...

I am a breeder, I breed a littler every few years of JRTs, but more often than not I steer people towards JRT resucue. I personally have nothing against cross breeding, as long as you have a darn good reason for it.

First things..find out if she came from health checked stock, just cause she tests clean doesn't mean she's not a carrier of genetic diseases. Then go out and get some titles on her. This will prove that she is athletic and trainable. (and its tonnes of fun!)

Wait till you have at least a basic title of some kind. Find what she excells in, agility, rally O, obedience etc. Then find out if other are going to want puppies from her. Then go out and look for a stud dog that excels in the same areas, who's conformation will improve her faults. And that people want puppies from. Make sure he is tested, and has a family history of testing.

Then get a waiting list of no less than 8 puppy buyers, get a deposit if you can. Make sure you have some $$ in the bank for complications. If you have never bred before get a good mentor who can help you, chose a sympathetic vet.

Then breed. Once the puppies are ready to go (about 9 weeks) make every one who buys one sign a contract that they will never sell, breed, or give away the dog. They must give the dog back to you if they cannot keep it any longer for what ever reason. The contract should also stipulate what you will do if the dog comes down with a genetically caused malady, ie refund purchase price.

Breeding is a sometimes fun, sometimes heartbreaking venture. If you are breeding produce someones best friend/partner and to protect the canine gene pool so future generations will have great dogs then it is very rewarding. But prepare to lose money, sleep, and lots of time. Breeding isn't for the faint of heart.
 

bubbatd

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#28
Even if the OP has vanished ....there has been over 400 viewers , so hopefully it's alerted some lurkers .
 

Whisper

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#29
I hope the OP is still reading here, too.
Please don't think we are flaming you.
Many of us are very passionate about responsible breeding. Purposely breeding two mixes as pets is irresponsible.
The only reason a dog should be bred is if they have proven themselves exceptional as breeding quality and if breeding will improve breed whether for working or showing purposes. Not all purebreds should be bred either.
No responsible breeder would breed just pets, when there are are millions dying in shelters every year. Every year 6-8 million go into shelters and 3-4 million are put to sleep because there are not enough homes for them all. Most of them are in there because people wanted to breed them "just to have puppies." 75% of those dogs are mix breeds who need homes. Many of which are the exact same mixes that people are pushing as designer breeds.
A backyard breeder purposely breeds pet quality dogs, mixed breeds without a working purpose, doesn't do the proper health testing, and many other reasons.
A backyard breeder is not necessarily a bad person or a mill, who may love their dogs but are not in it for more than just feeling like having puppies.
I absolutely LOVE mutts, I have owned some (and currently), but just because they are loveable, sweet dogs with great temperaments does not mean they are breeding quality, because they are not, and if I were to breed them (hypothetically of course, they are both spayed) that would be highly irresponsible.
The fact that your dog came from a bery irrensponisble breeder and she, nor her parents, have been tested for congenital defects is another red flag not to breed her.
Please just enjoy your dog for what she is- your pet. :)
I think if you want to have puppies, fostering an already pregnant dog is a great idea.

(A few parts were taken an altered a bit from a precious post of mine.)
 

Beanie

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#30
Mary Elizabeth, there are a few people on this board who own puppies or dogs with severe problems - health and behaviour problems - because the person who bred the puppy didn't know what they were doing. Their motivations may have not been money; they, like you, might have thought "Well she's a good healthy dog and he's a good healthy dog so they'll make good healthy dogs, right? And CUTE puppies!"

I am here to tell you that living in my house is one of these "cute puppies," and I love him to death and BECAUSE I love him, it breaks my heart that he was not bred properly. I started to type up all the things that are wrong with him and I couldn't even do it because I started crying. Happy is sick and he may very well die, and he's only seven years old. It hurts me to think of what HE has to go through, and what I have to watch him go through, because somebody was too bullheaded to realize it's not okay to breed a dog just because you want to.

Please, please, PLEASE, for the sake of the potential puppies that might come out of this, and for the sake of the owners who will buy those puppies and endure the same heartbreak that I and several other members on this board know all too well...
please do not do this.
 
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#31
The point of breeding in any case should be only to improve the breed. Unfortunately, you aren't even looking to keep the breed pure, much less improve it. The question before executing any breeding should be "What has my dog done to prove its breed-worthyness?" There are Golden breeders who are working to make sure that their dogs are top working/show/hunting dogs with clean health and excellent temperament. Those are the breeders that should be praised. But by pairing a pet dog that would make no outstanding contribution to a gene pool with another breed altogether, the result is going to be sub-par puppies that will not be ending up in serious dog enthusiasts' homes. People are becoming more educated about what to ask their breeders, and what are you going to say when folks coming to look at your puppies ask you the same questions we have?
 

otch1

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#32
Good point made by Bahamutt earlier, in the thread about California spay/neuter law passed. I hope you'll find and read that thread, Maryelizabeth. Doing what you're comtemplating doing, with your pet quality Golden, is one of the reasons the government feels justified in stepping in and taking control of the animal over population problem. Simply take a trip to your local animal shelter and you'll understand why you are getting the responses you've received so far. The shelters are full of dogs like the ones you'd like to produce. You have a bitch that will potentially create a large litter, as well. (That being one of the reasons yours had "dirty dog symdrome" as you stated.) That is often too large a litter for the mother to keep as clean as she would a litter of 6 or 7 pups. With a human assistant that is not changing bedding every few hours for 15 puppies, a very unsantitary condition quickly developes. You want your grandkids to experience puppies, but I'm hoping you do this in a more productive manner that will have less impact on the over population problem. Imagine what will happen if your bitch produces 3 or 4 female pups that go to buyers also wanting to breed them. In 1 to 2 years time, each bitch producing 7 to 10 more pups and you've just contributed another 50 dogs to the over population problem, in your community. Is there a really good reason, in your mind, to do that. Remember, everyone thinks that they'll have a line up of wonderful forever homes for their puppies, but statistics state otherwise.
 

Maxy24

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#33
she's still reading it, which is good. She was on today like 20 mins ago looking at this thread. Hopefully she'll respond and has learned something. I really hope for the sake of her dog and any potential puppies, that she does not breed her golden.
 
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#34
She's a gorgeous dog Mary, but what if one of her pups ended up in a shelter? Well, good luck, I am not saying anything to be mean, and make you angry, just something to think about. ;) And an animal in heat, is not a fun animal to be around, any other time, I am sure she is loveable, and fun, but I have two cats that have kittens, and they are A LOT of work, and Mika is not as fun when she has kittens or in heat. She would be a lot more fun if she was spayed. And I am hoping to get her spayed soon. I know dogs are different, but I have been around a dog in heat too, and she wasn't fun either, because all she wanted to do, was find a mate! eek. And she wasn't as fun when she had puppies either! Because puppies are a lot of work also. Her puppies were especially a lot of work!! (this was not my dog) but I got to see her constantly. And her pups. But, just some things to think about. From my experiences.
 

Luvntzus

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#35
What would happen if everyone bred their dog because it was a superb pet and great family dog? No, HONESTLY, what would happen???? We would have even more dogs in shelters than we already do and the pet over-population problem would be even more devastating than it already is.
That's an excellent point and I wish more people would consider that before breeding their dog. It's especially bad with the larger dogs because even one litter can produce 15 puppies. Then if even one or two of those puppies grows up and has a litter and their puppies grow up to have puppies; it's adding exponentially to the overpopulation problem. :(
 
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#36
Wow what a firestorm! I don't have time right now to post much, but will say a few things for now.

First, it has been suggested to me repeatedly that having puppies because the children will enjoy them is a foolish reason. I agree. I never said that! I only said that when my girls were young we unexpectedly had a litter of 13 and it was great fun, and that my grandchildren would enjoy them as well.

It has also been said repeatedly that if I want my grandchildren to experience puppies I could involve them in the animal shelter. They already are. We adopt a dog at the shelter, meaning we pay for it's keep. They have made mice toys for cats to sell to earn money for the shelter.

Furthermore, both my girls have got their dogs from the shelter for their family dogs because they feel that it is more responsible to make a home for unwanted pets than to buy a papered dog.

I was not aware that there were such strong feelings about "doodles"! Well, I am now. :lol-sign: Many of the things that have been said are just plain silly--for instance that doodles end up in the shelter so frequently. Actually a golden is every bit as likely as a doodle to end up in the shelter. One person told of a whole litter being brought to the shelter as though if they were goldens it would have been different.

There have been many replies suggesting that as a "BYB" I would automatically be a bad breeder. When I have time I will speak to that. Also, I will post in a new thread a web page that suggests that purebred dogs are perhaps problematic. I have my own feelings on that issue but I don't care to defend my feelings on that in this thread.

Again, thanks for telling me that Maya is too young to breed. Contrary to what a lot of people here have said, I certainly do not plan to breed a dog that is too young and has not been checked for health issues. The fact that I came here for advise should have suggested that.
 

sam

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#37
Wow what a firestorm! I don't have time right now to post much, but will say a few things for now.

First, it has been suggested to me repeatedly that having puppies because the children will enjoy them is a foolish reason. I agree. I never said that! I only said that when my girls were young we unexpectedly had a litter of 13 and it was great fun, and that my grandchildren would enjoy them as well.

It has also been said repeatedly that if I want my grandchildren to experience puppies I could involve them in the animal shelter. They already are. We adopt a dog at the shelter, meaning we pay for it's keep. They have made mice toys for cats to sell to earn money for the shelter.

Furthermore, both my girls have got their dogs from the shelter for their family dogs because they feel that it is more responsible to make a home for unwanted pets than to buy a papered dog.

I was not aware that there were such strong feelings about "doodles"! Well, I am now. :lol-sign: Many of the things that have been said are just plain silly--for instance that doodles end up in the shelter so frequently. Actually a golden is every bit as likely as a doodle to end up in the shelter. One person told of a whole litter being brought to the shelter as though if they were goldens it would have been different.

There have been many replies suggesting that as a "BYB" I would automatically be a bad breeder. When I have time I will speak to that. Also, I will post in a new thread a web page that suggests that purebred dogs are perhaps problematic. I have my own feelings on that issue but I don't care to defend my feelings on that in this thread.

Again, thanks for telling me that Maya is too young to breed. Contrary to what a lot of people here have said, I certainly do not plan to breed a dog that is too young and has not been checked for health issues. The fact that I came here for advise should have suggested that.


Actually the statictics would disagree with you. Purebred dogs are adopted more quickly and have easier time getting homes than do cross bred dogs in shelters. The apparent reason for that is that a PB dog is more likely to be of a predictable size, with predictable qualitites a cross bred dog or mutt is more of an unknown.

I keep pretty close tabs on the rescue groups in my area and that is sure obvious here. I have seen only a handful or PB Goldens turn up on the websites and they've all been adopted in a day whereas the cross bred dogs often linger for literally YEARS. In my particular area labs, huskies, shepherds and border collies and their crosses are the most common breeds in shelters.


Poodle mixes have been a huge trend recently as have other so called "designer hybrids" and have unfortunately that has attracted tons of people looking to breed for all the wrong reasons. Those people are NOT breeding responsibly and doing the work or screening of a responsible breeder and the results are tragic. We certainly are starting to see them turn up in shelters more and more frequently.

The saddest part is when people think they will get the temperment of a lab or golden on the calm end of the spectrum but with minimal or no shedding. That's not often the case and those dogs are getting dumped in shelters around one year - 18 mo of age. There have been several people in my manners class who are so disillusioned with their BYB, large, hyper, shedding doodle.

The argument of crossbreeding for better health doesn't fly when you are breeding Goldens/Labs with Poodles because they are prone to many of the same genetic health problems. Do a bit of research on outcrossing and hybrid vigor. It's NOT achieved by back yard breeding. I certainly support outcrossing in the interests of bettering a breed but again, that needs to be done by someone with great skill and knowledge of pedigrees and genetics not by haphazardly mixing two PB dogs of unknown pedigree with unknown backgrounds.

I also wanted to say something about "fancy titles" as you mentioned in your original post. Those titles aren't earned just for bragging rights or posterity. Comformation is designed to show good structure which should hopefully show good health and genetics- something important for breeding stock. It shows (or is designed to show) they are a good, correct specimen of their breed.

Depending on what breed of dog you have and what they are bred for, you would show them in different things to show different qualities important to that breed.

Some things dogs bred simply to be good companions often have is a Canine Good Citizen title or another temperment test. They might have a therapy dog certification or some obedience titles. Having titles both in conformation and in performance events can show that a dog is versatile, athletic, biddable etc These things aren't particularly hard to achieve with a knowledgeable handler, some good training and time spent with the dog. They do however show that the dog has a stable temperament, that the dog is biddable, smart and companionable. They also show the public that the breeder has taken the time and energy to do things with their dog and proves in an objective way that the dog has certain good qualities.

With the pet overpopulation being what it is, I think every animal lover considering breeding needs to take a very, hard honest look at what they are hoping to achieve. I own two fabulous dogs adopted from a rescue organization, who incidentally have achieved several titles, but I may someday look for a pup from a breeder. But you can bet I will be taking a hard look at the pedigree, the health clearances and what the dogs are bred for. I would NEVER purchase a dog from a BYB no matter how well intentioned and kind they are; no matter how lovely the dog. BYBing accounts for 70% of the shelter dogs in North Amercia much more than even what puppymill operations produce. That is hugely significant to me and something I can not support.

I hope you can understand that the strong feelings generated here are not personal, but a response to a very difficult and pervasive problem that accounts for the deaths of literally millions of dogs every year. For a group of dog lovers like you have here on this forum, it's hard not to get upset or angry especially with the frequency with which we get questions like this or questions from ignorant but well intentioned dog owners who have purchased these dogs.
We aren't trying to be nasty or harsh. We just want what's in the best interests of dog. Many people here are involved in rescue, some are responsible breeders. Some of us have learned from our mistakes the cost of adopting a poorly bred dog. For us these are very serious issues.
 
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sam

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#38
Just another thought to illustrate the point. The humane society in my city did a major awareness campaign in the newspapr a few years ago and I was horrified by what I read. They have to run their incinerators 24 hrs a day to get rid of the bodies of all the animals they euthanise. Pretty horrifying especially in an area that has SEVERAL no kill rescue groups carryiung myuch of the burden of the pet overpopulation in the area.
People don't really SEE how serious the pet overpopulation problem is.
 
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#39
Hi Sam,
Thanks for your thougtful post. Can you please point me to the statistics that suggest that BYB's breed 70% of the dogs that end up in shelters?
Thanks.

edit: I would agree that fewer goldens (for instance) end up in shelters, but just as few "doodles" end up in shelters also, at least in the shelters in my area.
 
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MafiaPrincess

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#40
The saddest part is when people think they will get the temperment of a lab or golden on the calm end of the spectrum but with minimal or no shedding. That's not often the case and those dogs are getting dumped in shelters around one year - 18 mo of age. There have been several people in my manners class who are so disillusioned with their BYB, large, hyper, shedding doodle.
Only doodles I have ever met.. golden or lab crosses were unmanageable. Hyper, endless barking. That's 6 at the dog park, 4 in classes, 2 in the neighbourhood. There was one I'd never met before in a workshop on attention yesterday, It spun circles the whole class, that is when it wasn't barking endlessly. Just what the world needs.. more of these..
 

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