For those who vilify us show people

[elegy]

i don't really have a problem with any dogs being shown provided that they're not being bred solely for show and to the exclusion of everything else. even working bred dogs. yes, working should be the most important, but if the dog works, i see no harm in putting them in the conformation ring. how they'll do... lol that's a different question. not too many coyote collies at westminster this year, eh?

but i don't see conformation championship as proof of anything beyond the dog fits what the current trend in fashion is and that the owner has the money to chase the title. it's certainly not proof of proper temperament (just look at that westminster malinois thread). a ch doesn't mean the dog is going to be a nice pet or produce nice pet puppies, so for a companion breed, yes, i want to see things like a passing ATTS temperament test, therapy dog certification, rally or obedience titles.

i was soundly chided on facebook when i expressed how uncomfortable it made me that exactly one dog in the working group had anything but a conformation title. these are the "best of the best" in the working group. the st. bernard had a CD, and that's it. but it takes so much time and money and blah blah blah to campaign a dog to that level that there's no time for anything else! and lots of those dogs go on to do other things after they finish their Ch. yeah, see, that's just kind of the epitome of what is wrong with the whole thing to me. westminster is held up as the ideal, but none of these dogs are proven to be the whole package.

i wish that you couldn't get a Ch on a dog unless they were proven to be what they're supposed to be outside of the showring and health tested to show that they're sound. it sure would make that Ch a lot better signifier of excellence.

 

[puppydog]

Maybe South Africa is different. It costs me next to nothing to show Travis and we are having a darn good time! I just get up early on the day, bath a very put out and sleepy Travis, blow dry him, feed him and pack the car. Off we go, drink champers, sun ourselves and watch the others show. His turn, 5 minutes and we go home. I love it.

His agility costs me more money and time.

 

[Dekka]

Ya that is not at ALL what it is like in North America!

 

[puppydog]

Ya that is not at ALL what it is like in North America!

What is it like? I am so interested to hear what it is like in different parts of the world.

 

[Dekka]

Here its much more common to send your dog out with a handler. Its not cheap. Agility is cheaper.

 

[puppydog]

Here its much more common to send your dog out with a handler. Its not cheap. Agility is cheaper.

What is the fun in that?
I love bonding with my little man at shows. It is something we both enjoy.

 

[OutlineACDs]

Here its much more common to send your dog out with a handler. Its not cheap. Agility is cheaper.

Eh, it depends on how far you take it. Not everyone sends a dog out with a handler. I have never done that. It took me way less time and money to finish my dog's Ch. than to get the agility titles we have. I spend more money in lessons, privates, entries than I ever did on conformation lessons or entries. It costs me around $80-$120 on average to enter one agility trial. It costs $50 for conformation.

The people at Westminster are talking about campaigning a dog in conformation. They are the ones who usually send a dog out with a handler who had a boarding fee, plus handling fee, plus travel expenses. These people are paying show entry fees nearly every weekend. When you campaign a dog, you don't have much time for the dog to do other things. If you send your dog with a handler, you rarely see the dog. Campaigning is NEVER necessary. This is where you have an already finished Ch. and you are competing weekend after weekend to take BOB's and group wins in order to be ranked.

Hundreds and hundreds of dogs finish every year and never show in conformation again. Some of those dog have time to go on to other performance events or therapy work or what have you.

My dog has been shown *maybe* 5 times in conformation since she finished. I thought about specialing her a bit, but just wasn't interested. She was mostly shown at specialties just so people could see her. I also like to see how dogs hold up as they age, so having her go out and take 1st in her veterans class at the nationals was awesome.

There just seems to be lot of misinformation about how the show world really works. Yes there are politics (I see them in performance too), yeah some people mistreat dogs, it happens everywhere. The most shocking thing I *ever* saw at a show was at an obedience trial, not a conformation show. Judges aren't stupid, they can see the ring tricks people pull. They know about creative grooming. All judges were exhibitors first. Some still are. No amount of grooming product or trimming will hide an incorrect coat. It might look ok from afar, but when the judge feels it, they can tell. The trimming is usually done to take some hair off of heavily coated dogs so the structure can be seen. Honetly, I don't groom my dogs. I bathe them and blow dry them, but I don't trim or use products. Carrie has an incorrect coat, and I tried using things on it in the past, but I knew her coat was incorrect and the judge can tell anyway, so why bother? She still won.

I remember one specific time a friend of mine took the points at a show. Her male sheltie was nice, but not as flashy as some out there. He showed well and had a nice body. He was well put together. He showed and won. It was a pretty large entry, I think he beat 11 or 12 other dogs. Someone just counldn't understand why her male didn't win and went and asked the judge. The judge point blank told her "I picked the dog who could get out there and do a job, he is well balanced and I feel he could really go out and work."

Also want to point out that judges education is taught by the national breed club. The same club members who can change the standard are the ones who teach the judges what to look for. Want to change it? Get involved in your national breed club and stand up for the working dog.

 

[Dekka]

Its pretty hard to show bias in agility (from the judge) can't say I have ever seen it. (and I have seen with my own eyes Judges pic dogs that are blatantly out of standard, or a judge who couldn't tell the breed of one of the dogs in group! )

I wasn't saying everyone does. Just from what I have heard in Can/US its more common to send a dog out with a handler. I show confo too. I don't take it all that seriously but many many people do. They spend a lot of time finding the right outfits, grooming their dogs, taking handling classes (if its owner handled). Dying, chalking, painting etc to hide flaws or to give an edge. A lot of effort goes into some dogs.

I just bathe the whippets the night before and maybe run a brush over them before we go i the ring. We end up going in a few times.

 

[OutlineACDs]

Its pretty hard to show bias in agility (from the judge) can't say I have ever seen it. (and I have seen with my own eyes Judges pic dogs that are blatantly out of standard, or a judge who couldn't tell the breed of one of the dogs in group! )

Sometimes contacts don't get called on some people, or refusals. I have seen a few pretty blatant refusals that don't get called. I have seen some rough handlers not getting excused for being overly gruff with dog. I have also literally seen one lady take out a treat at the end of her run and give it to the dog in the ring. Was all of this just overlooked or human error, or was it prefering one handler/dog over another? I can't say. Sometimes the agility gods giveth, sometimes they taketh away.

Like I said. Don't like whats getting put up in the ring? Get on the national breed club's judges education committee.

I had an AKC judge tell me that the judges education on movement for the GSD consisted of. "Pick a foot, count how many times it hits the floor on the go around, the dog with the least footfalls has the best movement." Is it correct? Uhh, no. Does it provide a big gait and flashy movement, yeah. Someone who knows working GSD's could have put a stop to that.

 

[Dekka]

In my experience of watching agility and competing (4 years now) I have to say yes I have seen refusals not called, but then that judge seems to let it slide with everyone. (I only do AAC agility and now CPE.. so don't know if KC versions have more of an agenda or not)

The only bias I have seen (and its a known unintentional bias) is that fast dogs tend to get faster table counts. Some trials have electronic timing for the table now. But thats a far cry from placing a dog due to who's on the end of the leash. (I have seen dogs who are winning with one person get sold, and never win again.. and yes the dog still shows nicely)

 

[OutlineACDs]

i wish that you couldn't get a Ch on a dog unless they were proven to be what they're supposed to be outside of the showring and health tested to show that they're sound. it sure would make that Ch a lot better signifier of excellence.

I guess I don't agree with this. Again its a case of narrowing your gene pool. So, ONLY fully health tested and passing dogs can get a Ch.? What about someone who just wants to show but never breeds. Why can't they show their dog?

Another example. I knew someone who finished a dog who failed it's OFA. Why? The dog was beautiful and she liked showing it. She knew she was never going to breed it and never did. The dog is still a member of their family and has never been lame a day in it's life at 11+ yrs old. So, this responsible person shouldn't be allowed to show because her dog failed an OFA?

Take a dog who isn't a stellar herder. A good breeder could health test and show the dog then breed it to something that has herding instinct and ability. The puppies can then be selected for their herding ability and so on.

What about a terrier who had tons and tons of instinct but for whatever structural reason, can't fit down a hole. Why throw him out? Breed him to something with a smaller chest or more angulated front?

If you can only breed when everything is perfect then there will be very few dogs left.

Championships are not out there to prove that dog is the be all end all. It's merely a venue to get unbiased opinions on your breeding program based on someone interpretation of the standard.

The system is not perfect, but there are things you can do to ensure it works. If it means you have to get off your duff and work to preserve the breed and the standard and fight politics etc, then do it. Sitting around saying "Working dogs don't win" isn't fixing anything.

The system is set up perfectly to allow diversity. If you want to do conformation you can, you don't have to do obed, or agility, or herding, or tracking. If you want to do tracking, no one said you had to do conformation too. If you want to do all of it, you can. Breeders pick what is important to them and they train, show, and breed to THAT. If they choose agility and breed and show for agility you can bet its going to produce a different dog than someone who breeds for obedience and tracking.

Maybe people would view it differently if it wasn't called a championship, but if it was called a "Breed Standard Title" or something. Like, my dog is titled in herding and has his BST too. I'm probably just rambling now.

 

[Laurelin]

Eh, it depends on how far you take it. Not everyone sends a dog out with a handler. I have never done that. It took me way less time and money to finish my dog's Ch. than to get the agility titles we have. I spend more money in lessons, privates, entries than I ever did on conformation lessons or entries. It costs me around $80-$120 on average to enter one agility trial. It costs $50 for conformation.

The people at Westminster are talking about campaigning a dog in conformation. They are the ones who usually send a dog out with a handler who had a boarding fee, plus handling fee, plus travel expenses. These people are paying show entry fees nearly every weekend. When you campaign a dog, you don't have much time for the dog to do other things. If you send your dog with a handler, you rarely see the dog. Campaigning is NEVER necessary. This is where you have an already finished Ch. and you are competing weekend after weekend to take BOB's and group wins in order to be ranked.

Hundreds and hundreds of dogs finish every year and never show in conformation again. Some of those dog have time to go on to other performance events or therapy work or what have you.

We sent Beau out with a handler for a few reasons. He showed a few weekends, finished, then came home the day he finished. I really do not see the point in campaigning a dog that is titled although there were several handlers interested in campaigning him. Why? What's the point? The only reason to campaign is to rack up glory points and hope to be ranked. It really has nothing to do with proving breed worthiness in any way whatsoever. He has already proven himself at local shows and a breed specialty.

That's why Westminster and shows like that annoy me. When you get up to that level it's about winning big and not about evaluating a dog. You rarely see the breeders who put effort into doing more with their dogs at those shows.

 

[Dekka]

I guess I don't agree with this. Again its a case of narrowing your gene pool. So, ONLY fully health tested and passing dogs can get a Ch.? What about someone who just wants to show but never breeds. Why can't they show their dog?

Another example. I knew someone who finished a dog who failed it's OFA. Why? The dog was beautiful and she liked showing it. She knew she was never going to breed it and never did. The dog is still a member of their family and has never been lame a day in it's life at 11+ yrs old. So, this responsible person shouldn't be allowed to show because her dog failed an OFA?

I like how the JRT world does it. There are two levels of classes, open and working. Any dog can enter open. Only proven working dogs can enter working. THe big awards, and trial champions are taken from the working classes.

 

[OutlineACDs]

I like how the JRT world does it. There are two levels of classes, open and working. Any dog can enter open. Only proven working dogs can enter working. THe big awards, and trial champions are taken from the working classes.

Is this for conformation? So they award points out of the open and points out of the working. So you can have an Open Ch. or a Working Ch? Or am I confused?

They do something similar at our nationals. Per AKC, points can only be awarded to winners dog or winners bitch, but there is a herding titled class at our national. Its just a class that only herding titled dogs can enter and it is judged on conformation. Like I said, no points are awarded, but its a presitgious win. Finished Ch's can be entered in it, but they have to have a herding title.

 

[Dekka]

Its for confo, but JRT people don't do points. The only way you can be a champion is to actually win a championship.

Thats good to hear that the AKC does that.

In CARA (canadian amateur racing assoc) it goes the other way lol. You get extra awards if your race dog has its ch.

 

[Spiritwind]

They do something similar at our nationals. Per AKC, points can only be awarded to winners dog or winners bitch, but there is a herding titled class at our national. Its just a class that only herding titled dogs can enter and it is judged on conformation. Like I said, no points are awarded, but its a presitgious win. Finished Ch's can be entered in it, but they have to have a herding title.

They have a class at our National as well, for herding titled dogs..

 

[Fran101]

woops wrong thread!

 

[jesirose]

As long as the dog is within breed standard

And who determines that and how? ....

 

[sammgirl]

Oh, I love how the ACD people do it! That's really cool!

I don't know that much yet about how Cardigan show stuff works.

 

[Beanie]

Beanie you just need to start breeding! I was so bummed trying to look for a sheltie. I can find paps with more working titles easier than shelties. Just sad.

LOL oh God but the show politics. I'm not 100% if I have the stomach for show politics.
I think we'll find out sooner or later though. I go back and forth between being fed up with the idea and wanting to pursue it just because it really needs to be done, LOL.