For those who vilify us show people

[OutlineACDs]

LOL oh God but the show politics. I'm not 100% if I have the stomach for show politics.
I think we'll find out sooner or later though. I go back and forth between being fed up with the idea and wanting to pursue it just because it really needs to be done, LOL.

Just get out there and do your thing. I don't sit around and chat with people much. I'm friendly, but I try not to get involved in a lot of dog show banter. I listen and keep my mouth shut a lot. I will ask opinions of people I respect and take them as they are. I don't take any one person's word for gospel.

People make it out to be scary. I asked my sheltie friend if anyone had ever been outright rude or mean to her. She said no. She's been showing shelties for 10yrs.

Remember, if no one is talking about you, you're doing it wrong

 

[Psyfalcon]

LOL oh God but the show politics. I'm not 100% if I have the stomach for show politics.
I think we'll find out sooner or later though. I go back and forth between being fed up with the idea and wanting to pursue it just because it really needs to be done, LOL.

This is part of the problem as I see it. Its not just that showing tends to reward exaggeration, but its also that no dog is proven unless it can win a CH. This might not apply to BC, and JRTs, but almost anything else... the working title always counts as the lesser title.

Newfies were bred to retrieve fishing nets, rescue people from the water, and pull carts full of fish. You can get titles in water rescue, you can send your newfie out to get a net, and teach it to pull a cart. But to most people, that dog is not proven until it wins its CH.

 

[RedHotDobe]

I don't really think either extreme is the way to go - working or showing. There needs to be some sort of middle ground. I don't want a dog that looks like this just because it's a good worker.

But I also don't want a Doberman that looks like this, just because it's pretty.

Or this. I'm not even sure what category this dog falls under. The 'I breed Dobermans because they're such big, scary guard dogs' category, maybe.

I want a structurally sound dog, that still looks like a Doberman should, and can still do what a Doberman should. A medium-sized, sleek, alert, agile dog who has the ability to protect me. But, as has already been said, the fault lies on the breeders. It isn't the AKC's fault that dogs are being bred away from what they're supposed to be, and it isn't the AKC's fault that the parent clubs are modifying standards to suit changing tastes.

Disclaimer: I have no idea who any of those dogs are. I just searched and chose pictures that illustrated my point.

 

[RedHotDobe]

Okay, adding one more picture, just as a comparison to the first two dogs I posted. This is Rumor's daddy. He's a working bred dog from Europe who, while not my ideal dog, still manages to look like a Doberman should. He got his AKC championship.

 

[Dekka]

I do in part blame the AKC. And all those who stand behind it. As a newbie breeder you get involved. You get educated that the AKC (or CKC etc) is THE measure of how good your dog is.

I have hung out with enough show people. And totally have seen what Psyfalcon has said about proving dogs. Sure the breeders share some blame. But at the same time if you want to 'prove' your lines and have access to the genetic material you want you often have to play the 'game'. In this case the 'game' is AKC.

The AKC if they so chose could change things up a bit.

this is their mission statement:

The American Kennel Club is dedicated to upholding the integrity of its Registry, promoting the sport of purebred dogs and breeding for type and function. Founded in 1884, the AKC® and its affiliated organizations advocate for the purebred dog as a family companion, advance canine health and well-being, work to protect the rights of all dog owners and promote responsible dog ownership.

AKC’s Objective:

* Advance the study, breeding, exhibiting, running and maintenance of purebred dogs.

AKC's Core Values:

* We love purebred dogs
* We are committed to advancing the sport of the purebred dog
* We are dedicated to maintaining the integrity of our Registry
* We protect the health and well-being of all dogs
* We cherish dogs as companions
* We are committed to the interests of dog owners
* We uphold high standards for the administration and operation of the AKC
* We recognize the critical importance of our clubs and volunteers

Are they doing that? If the answer is no then YES some of the blame falls to that organization. They have taken a lot of responsibility on themselves, yet some people are quick to absolve them of it.

Its not blame breeders OR blame the KC. Both, IMO, share the responsibility. And what about blame to the puppy buyers? If more pet people insisted on more well rounded dogs there would be more of them.

 

[Beanie]

This is part of the problem as I see it. Its not just that showing tends to reward exaggeration, but its also that no dog is proven unless it can win a CH. This might not apply to BC, and JRTs, but almost anything else... the working title always counts as the lesser title.

...wha? How did you get that out of what I said about show politics...?

 

[RedHotDobe]

Yes but then shouldn't the working clubs be blamed for allowing dogs like the first I posted to compete? Or this?

Just because they can work doesn't mean they should be excluded from having decent structure.

As for pet puppy buyers, I don't think they can be blamed. They're not going to want a dog that is driven to work or herd. They're going to want a calm, quiet dog that requires minimal effort on their part. No they shouldn't be getting a dog they aren't equipped to deal with, but that'll never happen. Too many people want dogs because they look pretty with little thought as to how that dog is going to act once it's in their house.

 

[release the hounds]

Are they doing that? If the answer is no then YES some of the blame falls to that organization. They have taken a lot of responsibility on themselves, yet some people are quick to absolve them of it.

Its not blame breeders OR blame the KC. Both, IMO, share the responsibility. And what about blame to the puppy buyers? If more pet people insisted on more well rounded dogs there would be more of them.

Exactly. There is more than enough blame.

the buyers, but they have an excuse. But, but, but, I wanted a lower drive dog, I just want this, or just that, or one that is this color and looks good with pink bows. They're just buying what they want. They do afterall deserve to have an entire breed destroyed and watered down to a shell of what it is supposed to be so they can live with the image, fantasy, and myth of it all and brag to their friends, or they can have the perfect dog that fits in a purse and looks good with their earings.

The AKC certainly shares blame. They afterall do have the image, promote themselves as something they aren't. Have a reputation among puppy buyers built on nothing more than words, it certainly isn't actions. They do educate the public, they educate breeders, they educate their judges that put up dogs that do not fit the mental or physical standard for all kinds of breeds. But they aren't responsible for the downfall of breeds. They don't actually "breed" them.

and the breeders aren't at fault, they have excuses too. They afterall, only breed what people want to buy, and only breed what will win in shows that the judges put up. If they don't breed to extremes, the judges won't put them up to win and they won't be able to sell any puppies then.

everyone's got an excuse, and nobody will do the right thing.

 

[Dekka]

As for pet puppy buyers, I don't think they can be blamed. They're not going to want a dog that is driven to work or herd. They're going to want a calm, quiet dog that requires minimal effort on their part. No they shouldn't be getting a dog they aren't equipped to deal with, but that'll never happen. Too many people want dogs because they look pretty with little thought as to how that dog is going to act once it's in their house.

I couldn't disagree more strongly. Being stupid or ignorant is no excuse. And many pet people DO want the right dog, not just the pretty dog.

And you are equating working dogs with drives that pet people can't handle. I know a fair number of pet JRT owners. THey deal with the drives quite well. They want a lively entertaining companion.

You want to keep your breed alive. Then yes you do need the less than pretty dogs but who can work and are healthy. They DO have a place in breeding program if they are great examples of the breed short of being pretty. (ok maybe not the one with the strange back..) But what I am saying is the breeding for a shell is bad, and what does it say to puppy buyers? It tells them you can own any model you want as they all have the same software.

People get to hooked on only the 'look' of the breed. Forgetting that is only a small part of what makes a breed.

 

[Tsume'sMom]

People get to hooked on only the 'look' of the breed. Forgetting that is only a small part of what makes a breed.

:hail: I agree 100%! Breeding for pritty or to fit some "perfect idea" and leaving out the heath, temprament, and over all soundness of the dog is a form of abuse in my book. It's nice when you have a dog that is hansome to look at, but (for example) if their hips give out at age 4 what hope is there for that line of dogs?

I love GSDs as a package deal. When I was seeking out my first personal dog when I left home, I was looking for heath and tempermant first. Then a breeder that met my high standards that had the solid black I was looking for. But if a red/black had come up, fine, never mind the pritty - I want a heathy long lived friend.

I do think blame should be placed with puppy buyers as well. You should ALWAYS educate yourself before getting any dog, even more so for a pure breed. If all puppy buyers were educated there wouldn't be the supply and demand of non-repuatable breeders pumping out millions of homeless dogs every year. If the buyer was fully educated how many would go out an buy a GSD with un-tested hips, a Dane with out test for wobblers, a boxer with out heart testing?

Sadly humans have a bad habbit of falling for the shiny wrapper only to find that the candy inside is yucky and it ends up in the trash.