For those who vilify us show people
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I really don't place all importance on showing. As long as the dog is within breed standard, health tested, and has a temperament that it should have then it's all good.
I just think that breed standard is very important when it comes to companion breeds especially. Over time, if chihuahuas with mediocre heads are being bred (rather than apple domed) they will end up with longer snouts and a lesser stop. I see so many rat terrior looking dogs that people claim are chihuahuas, when they don't even look or act like chihuahuas.
I don't think I could deal with showing... it's just not something that looks fun to me. I planned on showing Tucker and then realized it's not something I wanted to be involved in.
I just think that breed standard is very important when it comes to companion breeds especially. Over time, if chihuahuas with mediocre heads are being bred (rather than apple domed) they will end up with longer snouts and a lesser stop. I see so many rat terrior looking dogs that people claim are chihuahuas, when they don't even look or act like chihuahuas.
I don't think I could deal with showing... it's just not something that looks fun to me. I planned on showing Tucker and then realized it's not something I wanted to be involved in.
I agree to an extent. On one side it's to preserve the breed, on another look at how it has deformed some breeds. the OEB, the GSD, Mal's, and many others have been practically destroyed by the show fancy. Not to say this is within all breeds, but you have to look at what is pretty and what is functional. If it's a purely cosmetic aspect that causes other issues, then the standard should be changed (i.e. wobbly hocks on the GSD's etc)
If you want to look at how breeding for show changes a breed...
This
came from JRTs.
They are pretty yes but the change from a useful working type with drive to this was all done for cosmetic purposes. Straighter angles, deeper chest and larger size are the antithesis of a working terrier. And those changes don't make it healthier, or a better pet. (the watered down drive might)
This
came from JRTs.
They are pretty yes but the change from a useful working type with drive to this was all done for cosmetic purposes. Straighter angles, deeper chest and larger size are the antithesis of a working terrier. And those changes don't make it healthier, or a better pet. (the watered down drive might)
If you want to look at how breeding for show changes a breed...
This
came from JRTs.
They are pretty yes but the change from a useful working type with drive to this was all done for cosmetic purposes. Straighter angles, deeper chest and larger size are the antithesis of a working terrier. And those changes don't make it healthier, or a better pet. (the watered down drive might)
This
came from JRTs.
They are pretty yes but the change from a useful working type with drive to this was all done for cosmetic purposes. Straighter angles, deeper chest and larger size are the antithesis of a working terrier. And those changes don't make it healthier, or a better pet. (the watered down drive might)
If you want to look at how breeding for show changes a breed...
This
came from JRTs.
They are pretty yes but the change from a useful working type with drive to this was all done for cosmetic purposes. Straighter angles, deeper chest and larger size are the antithesis of a working terrier. And those changes don't make it healthier, or a better pet. (the watered down drive might)
This
came from JRTs.
They are pretty yes but the change from a useful working type with drive to this was all done for cosmetic purposes. Straighter angles, deeper chest and larger size are the antithesis of a working terrier. And those changes don't make it healthier, or a better pet. (the watered down drive might)
I don't see how that is "pretty". That dog has no layback. Dogs with bad fronts just make me cringe, in any breed. Now, because I'm super curious, does that dog actually have its CH or is it just a generic example of the general type found in the ring?
The site I took it from says ch.
(I don't know the dog just went looking for a side shot of a ch smooth fox terrier)
Interestingly the breed and breeder sites talked about them still being working dogs and still being hunted today. Possibly but there is no way the show ring dogs could fit down holes even if they had the drive.
(I don't know the dog just went looking for a side shot of a ch smooth fox terrier)
Interestingly the breed and breeder sites talked about them still being working dogs and still being hunted today. Possibly but there is no way the show ring dogs could fit down holes even if they had the drive.
That's just sad! I had to go on a mystical quest to see if there are any winning fox terriers with decent looking builds. This dog is from the UK fox terrier club website. I have zero idea if a dog like that would win at a north american show, or if he has the build to hunt, but his front doesn't look so straight at least.
Oh man, this thread has derailed. lol
In answer to the op's question, if I was going to BUY a companion purebred, that was bred for the sole purpose of companionship, I would want to see conformation showing being done. So many chis out there look like badly bred poms and pom mixes. If I'm paying for a chihuahua, it better look like one! lol.
Then, like others have said, proof of temperament and health. I want to see health testing done, and I want some proof of temperament. A CGC, TT, TDI, etc. Things along those lines. OB and rally wouldn't hurt, though I wouldn't demand it. Especially if the dogs had TDIs. Agility or other physical sports are a nice bonus, but whatever. If a dog was made for being a lap warmer, I don't expect it to have the drive to run over a bunch of obstacles. If they do, fine, but it's not a requirement in my book unless the individual breed standard states they should. Or being athletic is in their history (like dachshunds, boston bull terriers, etc.)
Oh man, this thread has derailed. lol
In answer to the op's question, if I was going to BUY a companion purebred, that was bred for the sole purpose of companionship, I would want to see conformation showing being done. So many chis out there look like badly bred poms and pom mixes. If I'm paying for a chihuahua, it better look like one! lol.
Then, like others have said, proof of temperament and health. I want to see health testing done, and I want some proof of temperament. A CGC, TT, TDI, etc. Things along those lines. OB and rally wouldn't hurt, though I wouldn't demand it. Especially if the dogs had TDIs. Agility or other physical sports are a nice bonus, but whatever. If a dog was made for being a lap warmer, I don't expect it to have the drive to run over a bunch of obstacles. If they do, fine, but it's not a requirement in my book unless the individual breed standard states they should. Or being athletic is in their history (like dachshunds, boston bull terriers, etc.)
Ahh, it seems this is the great debate. I will never fault a working breeder who choses to show in conformation as well. I'm sorry, you can say that putting a working breed in a show ring is ruining the breed, but I just don't see it. When breeders sway from having working dogs who show to having show dogs who work is where breeds get ruined. AKC doesn't write standards. Individual breed club write and revise standards based on the membership of that club. If you have a largely conformation membership there is where your fault lies. If you membership is somewhere towards the middle, and you have a working breed the then working members need to stand up and be more invilved to keep that working standard.
Thank god my breed seems to be one of the few where a lot of breeders show conformation but also own their own farms and/or trial the dogs as well. The parents of my youngest dog are both finished Ch.'s. Dad is also a working trial champion and a dual (herding and confo) Ch in AKC. Mom has herding titles as well. Both live on a working farm.
I am trying my darndest to keep dogs who work, or at minimum have herding instinct, in the show ring. My oldest dog is a conformation Ch. she has upper level agility titles in multiple venues, and a rally title. She would have made a killer herding dog had I found an instructor sooner. She was 8 by the time I found an instructor and at that point was too much to handle for both of us. She had a LOT of drive, but was a possible danger to the sheep because we had no control over that drive. Her parents were both Ch's in AKC and her dad had AKC herding titles. Her mom didn't have titles but was the breeder's team roping dog when she did rodeo.
AKC championships do not kill working ability. Breeders who do not breed for working ability do that.
Dekka, I agree with you on a lot of things, but the parts where you talk about diversity and breeding dogs who are successful in multiple venues is a bit confusing to me. Let me explain.
We have a minimum of 5 health tests reccomended by CHIC. Canine Health Information Center We also have a total of 4 other optional tests. Just the 5 main tests can knock out a large number of dogs from the gene pool. So out of 100 breeding age male dogs, 5 fail the OFA hips. 1 has DJD in the elbows. 6 are unilateral for hearing. 3 come back as PRA "c" (affected). You are down to 85 dogs. Out of those 85 that passed all health clearances, 25 are conformation Ch's. 15 of those Ch's have working titles. 20 dogs have working/sport titles but no conformation. If you narrow just to the titles/tested dogs you have 45 dogs left.
I guess I'm just trying to point out that the more you test and title the fewer dogs you really have contributing to the gene pool. How long before it ends up that you are just breeding based on the lesser of two evils?
I'm not EVER EVER saying quit testing and titling, but even if you aren't linebreeding you are still narrowing down your gene pool
Thank god my breed seems to be one of the few where a lot of breeders show conformation but also own their own farms and/or trial the dogs as well. The parents of my youngest dog are both finished Ch.'s. Dad is also a working trial champion and a dual (herding and confo) Ch in AKC. Mom has herding titles as well. Both live on a working farm.
I am trying my darndest to keep dogs who work, or at minimum have herding instinct, in the show ring. My oldest dog is a conformation Ch. she has upper level agility titles in multiple venues, and a rally title. She would have made a killer herding dog had I found an instructor sooner. She was 8 by the time I found an instructor and at that point was too much to handle for both of us. She had a LOT of drive, but was a possible danger to the sheep because we had no control over that drive. Her parents were both Ch's in AKC and her dad had AKC herding titles. Her mom didn't have titles but was the breeder's team roping dog when she did rodeo.
AKC championships do not kill working ability. Breeders who do not breed for working ability do that.
Dekka, I agree with you on a lot of things, but the parts where you talk about diversity and breeding dogs who are successful in multiple venues is a bit confusing to me. Let me explain.
We have a minimum of 5 health tests reccomended by CHIC. Canine Health Information Center We also have a total of 4 other optional tests. Just the 5 main tests can knock out a large number of dogs from the gene pool. So out of 100 breeding age male dogs, 5 fail the OFA hips. 1 has DJD in the elbows. 6 are unilateral for hearing. 3 come back as PRA "c" (affected). You are down to 85 dogs. Out of those 85 that passed all health clearances, 25 are conformation Ch's. 15 of those Ch's have working titles. 20 dogs have working/sport titles but no conformation. If you narrow just to the titles/tested dogs you have 45 dogs left.
I guess I'm just trying to point out that the more you test and title the fewer dogs you really have contributing to the gene pool. How long before it ends up that you are just breeding based on the lesser of two evils?
I'm not EVER EVER saying quit testing and titling, but even if you aren't linebreeding you are still narrowing down your gene pool
I agree with what Outline said. But not just that there are breeders out there who won't even look at a male if their ofa hip rating isn't an excellent. So that can cut the options down alot. And sometimes its not the dogs fault that they don't have any titles after their name(as in can't do the job) but the owners fault because they can't. I would prefer a more well rounded dog but it would be hypocritical of me to say I wouldn't use a dog who doesn't have a road trial title after his name when I have such a dog. And I will likely never own a dog who does have a road trial title after his name.
Yes you are. But at a slower rate. Breeding for ability tends to be a broader scope as not all great herding dogs of the same breed herd the same. (even I as a know nothing about herding can see that when watching herding lol) But you look at most show ring entrants esp the top ones.. they have a very cookie cutter look to them.
All breeds with closed stud books WILL become critically inbred. The rate of mutation is not going to be great enough with all the culling we do to keep diversity. This is a fact.
However some are approaching this at a much faster rate.
A breed that has a larger effective population size (less breeding for a series of identical traits) it will take less to restore diversity.
Think of wolves. Think of the selection pressures that are on them. It allows for various phenotypes to be successful in different areas and in different times. You have less selection on wild animals than we do have on domestic ones, particularly the pure bred dog.
sorry I could go on about this. I am leaning strongly towards this idea of pop gen and the purebred dog could be where I go with my education and career lol.
All breeds with closed stud books WILL become critically inbred. The rate of mutation is not going to be great enough with all the culling we do to keep diversity. This is a fact.
However some are approaching this at a much faster rate.
A breed that has a larger effective population size (less breeding for a series of identical traits) it will take less to restore diversity.
Think of wolves. Think of the selection pressures that are on them. It allows for various phenotypes to be successful in different areas and in different times. You have less selection on wild animals than we do have on domestic ones, particularly the pure bred dog.
sorry I could go on about this. I am leaning strongly towards this idea of pop gen and the purebred dog could be where I go with my education and career lol.
:hail::hail::hail::hail::hail: Outline!!
I do think you are really lucky to have a breed with a lot of breeders who are going for a total package dog. Shelties ABSOLUTELY can be a total package but more and more people are less concerned with that and just want the show dog. This is not the ring or the AKC doing this, it's the breeders who make these choices. I fault no one but the breeders. It really disappoints me. It should not be so hard to find a breeder who shows and works their dogs in a WORKING breed! (Obviously I already have one so I'm a total cheater but it would be nice if I could find and recommend other breeders to people.)
I do think you are really lucky to have a breed with a lot of breeders who are going for a total package dog. Shelties ABSOLUTELY can be a total package but more and more people are less concerned with that and just want the show dog. This is not the ring or the AKC doing this, it's the breeders who make these choices. I fault no one but the breeders. It really disappoints me. It should not be so hard to find a breeder who shows and works their dogs in a WORKING breed! (Obviously I already have one so I'm a total cheater but it would be nice if I could find and recommend other breeders to people.)
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All power to people who show. That's fine by me.
I do take issue to poor breeding pratices that lead to things like the EXTREEME angle that has been bred into GSDs, or skulls that are closeing airways, spines that are paralyzing, etc. Health and temperament should be first and foremost in any breeding pratice. I have seen show dogs bred to such extreemes that it looks painful for them to stand or move in a normal way. Back yard breeders add to the issue as well, breeding unhealthy, unstable dogs.
Not all people who breed or show are villians. It is the unethical breeders and judges who pass on traits that lead to the slow distruction of a breed. Be it the dogs hips, skull, or spine- breeding to the extreemes of one clubs idea of a standard is wrong. You can meet the standard with out extreemes and produce a heathy and stable dog, those are the dogs that SHOULD be shown.
I do take issue to poor breeding pratices that lead to things like the EXTREEME angle that has been bred into GSDs, or skulls that are closeing airways, spines that are paralyzing, etc. Health and temperament should be first and foremost in any breeding pratice. I have seen show dogs bred to such extreemes that it looks painful for them to stand or move in a normal way. Back yard breeders add to the issue as well, breeding unhealthy, unstable dogs.
Not all people who breed or show are villians. It is the unethical breeders and judges who pass on traits that lead to the slow distruction of a breed. Be it the dogs hips, skull, or spine- breeding to the extreemes of one clubs idea of a standard is wrong. You can meet the standard with out extreemes and produce a heathy and stable dog, those are the dogs that SHOULD be shown.
Ok, reading so many great veiws and opinions on here! I think I should post mine.
I owned working border collies for my entire childhood! I am very new to Paps and very new to showing. My borders were all titled in obedience and herding. I do not think ANY working dogs should be shown. To me what they look like is of little consequense. But that is just my opinion. I do not think people who do show their working bred dogs are bad, I just would not do it.
I show Travis because I want him to be proven structurally correct. He started agility this year (He hates it LOL) and we are doing obedience. He will be fully health tested and I know his temprement is true to the Pap standard. So, all that is left for me to be responsible enough to breed him is his CH. Those are my veiws.
Oh, and Allie, this thread was started out of my own interest, not to bait anyone.
I owned working border collies for my entire childhood! I am very new to Paps and very new to showing. My borders were all titled in obedience and herding. I do not think ANY working dogs should be shown. To me what they look like is of little consequense. But that is just my opinion. I do not think people who do show their working bred dogs are bad, I just would not do it.
I show Travis because I want him to be proven structurally correct. He started agility this year (He hates it LOL) and we are doing obedience. He will be fully health tested and I know his temprement is true to the Pap standard. So, all that is left for me to be responsible enough to breed him is his CH. Those are my veiws.
Oh, and Allie, this thread was started out of my own interest, not to bait anyone.