For or against docking tails or cropping ears?

ravennr

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#41
The problem with it being the owner's choice is that some people see it as animal abuse, and believe that falls into looking at your dog as property (out of the eyes of the law). They see it as being unnecessary pain, and thus, abuse.

I don't see it as abuse, I see it as cosmetic surgery that I find, in no way, appealing. I would adopt a dog that was docked/cropped, but I would never avidly seek a breeder who did it, or have it done by my own choice, just because.
 

RD

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#42
With all the genuine, undisputed abuse going on in the US (can't speak for other countries) there are plenty of battles for animal lovers to fight that will make a bigger difference to the lives of dogs than deciding whether or not their breeder should've been able to surgically remove their ears or tail at a young age. Whether or not people like it, cropping is a minor surgical procedure and, in terms of discomfort to the dog, not much different than a neuter. Unnecessary, perhaps (not going to get into that) but not agonizing. Aren't there bigger battles to fight?

Edit again: Stupid italics.
 

ravennr

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#43
With all the genuine, undisputed abuse going on in the US (can't speak for other countries) there are plenty of battles for animal lovers to fight that will make a bigger difference to the lives of dogs than deciding whether or not their breeder should've been able to surgically remove their ears or tail at a young age.
I don't disagree, but abuse isn't written down as being black and white. Not everyone sees chaining a dog all day long as abuse, but I do.
Nobody will ever agree 100% on anything.


BTW: that dramatic prairie dog entertains me for hours.:cool:
 

RD

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#44
You're right, it's a matter of opinion, but I do think there are some things that qualify as abuse no matter which dog lover you ask -- I'm not talking about tying a dog out, but rather the horrific stuff like puppymills and people who beat on their animals and then leave them to starve and die. Maybe it's just where i live, but I look around and I see horribly mistreated dogs all over the place. That's what I think people should be going after -- not "let's pass laws so people must spay/neuter their dogs" or "let's pass laws so people can't ever crop/dock their puppies".

Dramatic prairie dog = <3 :D
 
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#45
I know that some are but from the POINTER magazine i take monthly the english tend to keep their tails, especially when you look in the breeding section. They use to come by when we were at the field trials in Kansas and Missouri. I always envied them for they looked like they were having a lot more fun then we were on their horses with the dogs running like the wind. It was fascinating to watch, and that is when i fell in love with them from beginning to end. I will always be staunch in my beliefs that it is unnecessary. Multiple dewclaws do get torn easily, hernias have to be repaired, but i see puppies as babies, and i will never abide hurting them in anyway for any reason. Especially for a dog show or breeding. THat is just insane. When i see a docked ear i feel queasy. For me, ears are the next most lovely part of a dog, right after the eyes. Even people are learning now to rub their own darn ears to feel better. WE could have learned that from dogs long ago.
May I ask what magazine? If it is something offered by the Pointer breed club then I highly doubt there is much in there except show pointers. The field trial pointers that are docked have very little taken off. When they are adults it looks like only 1-2 inches taken off the tip, not 2/3rds of the entire tail.

Also, you do know that when I refer to Pointers I am talking about "English Pointers", right? I am not talking about every pointing breed.
 
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#46
I have to ask, in regards to the Caucasian Ovcharka...How exactly does that help them again? Because, erm, I have yet to see Pyrenees, Anatolians, and most other LGD's who have their ears cropped off to the point they aren't even really there. Seems pretty **** hypocritical to me to use that as an example and then turn around and claim it's for benefit.

I have a family member that has tailed GSP's, as well. I see no difference in their tails from a Pointer or a Coonhound, and yet their territory is the same.

Border Collies are not docked, yet Aussies are. Some corgis are docked, and others arent, but there was once even debate as to whether or not they were different breeds.

Hog hunting is not always done with cropped dogs. The breed doesn't mandate whether or not their ears come off. They are dogs, they can endure the same injuries, and it is even less likely for some to endure what others may. Curs have their tails docked, and not to nubs, but their ears are not cropped, and they tend to have floppy hound ears, nothing like a Dogo. Many are not even docked, and still used as avid hunting dogs. I've never seen a cropped American Bulldog, I haven't even seen many cropped APBTs, but yet there's an argument for a rare breed as the Dogo that it must be done? So I guess that can be thrown out too. I am sure injuries happen, but it obviously doesn't happen enough (considering they don't usually just go for their faces, from what I have seen) to warrant a common practice of ear cropping, even among breeders.

As you can see, "traditional docking/cropping serves a work purpose" rarely, if ever, stands by itself as a sane argument.


ETA: As for the spay/neuter argument, it shouldn't even be brought up here, as someone else has already stated. It gets old when it is. It's safe to say many on this board are probably responsible enough to keep an intact dog, but the average joe is not. Intelligent, educated people, fine, don't do it, but be responsible. Others dogs are not so lucky to have someone like that.
Different regions discover different methods to help their dogs ;) Heck some areas even thought that only cropping ONE ear on an LGD would make him a stronger, better dog. Rarely does that still occur these days but sometimes in remote enough areas you may still see a dog on the side of the mountain with his sheep that has one ear cropped and the other natural. Those of the Caucasus Mountains cropped their dogs ears off to prevent injury when fighting off predators. This practice is also found with the Central Asian Ovcharka, the Turkish Kangal, the Molossus Espirou, and other LGD breeds. Just because the French shepherds weren't quick enough to catch on to the practice woth their Great Pyrs doesnt mean no one else did.

The GSP tails have already been covered by other people who are more knowledgable on the breed than me so I will not bother to go into that one...

I never said AmBulls are traditionally cropped I simply said they were used as hog hunting dogs....But that being said I have seen cropped AmBulls, not many, but a couple, I have seen more docked ones than cropped. Regarding the Dogos, all I know is from what I have discussed with avid boar hunters and hearing about their personal experiences on the hunt with their dogs. And yes, a dog should go for the face because going for anywhere else is very dangerous and heightens the dog's chance of injury and/or death. And I know not all catch dogs are docked or cropped, just like not all Rottweillers are docked, and not all Dobermans are cropped.

Something else I forgot to bring up earlier is that cropping serves a dual purpose not only serving a function, but health too (which was discovered after the tradition of cropping began). Dogs with thick velvety ears (like the Cane Corso) can become prone to ear infections regardless of regular cleaning due to the limited air flow (allowing the ear to stay damp, dark and warm - perfect breeding ground for bacteria). A cropped dog has a reduced chance of being prone to ear infections because of the increased air flow keeping the inside of the ear dry, cool and in the light. Other breeds with thick velvety ears (like the Lab) dont have their ears cropped regardless of the benefit with ear infections because there really is no other reason for their ears to be cropped so the tradition was never started. Other breeds like the Basset Hound actually utilize their ears with the way they are to excel at the job they were intended to do.

The argument of "we should just let the ears stay natural because that is how god created them" really doesnt hold much justice. HUMANS created dog breeds and HUMANS bred for floppy ears. There is not a single wild (therefore truly created by God or whatever belief you may have) canine that has floppy ears. Wolves have pricked ears, coyotes have pricked ears, Dingos have pricked ears, Jackals have pricked ears, even PARIAH dogs have pricked ears...
 

ravennr

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#48
There are indeed breeds that have thin ears that are not cropped.

Even the board of vets says cropping has no medical benefits right off and see it as cosmetic surgery. I will refrain from arguing with those who know that much about a dogs health to be lucky enough to work with them to keep them healthy when they say that cropping is not as true to health reasons as people make it out to be.
 

bialinger

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#49
I have only skimmed through this thread, so forgive me if I repeat something someone else has said...

First of all, as far as "playing God" - "God" created wolves, coyotes, and foxes, which have smaller, more erect ears that don't get torn and tails which are not to thin and hairless that they get torn up running through the woods. He also created fur which didn't get heavily ladened with waste and the like. Then, humans came and bred dogs that had problems and to fix the problem, they started cutting off parts of the dogs. For this reason, I find it totally unnecessary to crop/dock dogs because if those things are really problems, you can easily breed the problem out! Breeders in Europe are now breeding dogs with more attractive tails and ears. Not to mention you can breed dogs with Naturally bobbed tails or erect ears, it's really not necessary to cut them up!

I would also like to add that people come up with lots of 'reasons' as to why dogs 'need' to be cropped/docked, but really... there are plenty of breeds with thin tails and ears that don't get cropped/docked and they are doing just fine. I think the people prescribing to this practise should at least be honest about the fact that it IS cosmetic.

As far as circumcism, I have a son who is one year old and I can tell you, I would never have him circumcized. Just because he doesn't remember it and just because he's a baby doesn't mean he doesn't feel pain. I've seen circumcism videos, they are just awful.

ETA: All this being said, however, this is MY opinion and while I'm not crazy about cosmetic surgery, on dogs or humans, without their consent, I don't think it's the worst thing that could happen. I know people who do these things and I don't think they're wretched awful people, I just disagree.
 

ravennr

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#50
Also, erect ears not getting torn makes absolutely no sense. They are more apparent on their heads unless you cut them all the way off (but then of course they just look **** ridiculous).
I've seen pictures and such of wolves, and looking at their ears, they get damaged all the same. So I guess that argument is pretty useless as well.

So again, cosmetic.
 

SizzleDog

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#51
IMO, this is abuse:
http://www.doberman911.org/cases/frito.html

And this is not.


This topic will never be solved on an internet message board, opinions are too "hot" on both sides. That's all I'm going to say on the subject, you all may hash and rehash the issue over and over again if you wish. But I'll stay out of it.
 

mrose_s

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#52
i am against both cropping and docking. I don't think its abuse, but i see it as unessecary. I personally prefer the natural look on all dogs, i remember the firts time i saw an all natural boxer i was amazed at its elegance, and i'm not really a boxer person

cropping IS painful, i don't think thats fair to subject a pup to unnecesary pain.
I will never choose to put my animal under anesthesia unless absolutley needed. Everytime one of our animals go under i'm so nervous till their safe back home


that said, i do believe some dogs still used for their original work may benfit from cropping/docking.
I also understand why some people prefer to crop their dogs, and i do think some crops look amazing elegant ie SizzleDogs Ilsa and Ronin, but i wouldn't oppose to a ban.

As for docking, i don't think its cruel, i just don't think there are any good arguments to support it. tradition and looks don't justify it IMO
 

Dekka

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#53
what does spay neuter have to do with health?? Don't give me propaganda sites either, I can see them for what they are. I have intact dogs, always have, and not one female has ever had a puppy that wasn't planned by me.

I've never had to get my dogs put under for teeth cleaning either, mostly cause of the food I give them.

The dogs aren't being abused, killed,etc. I think most people should keep their noses in their own business. because:

We now have groups trying to mandate ALL of us to mutilate our dogs and have them ALL spayed and Neutered, regardless of my personal opinions and lifestyle.

We have groups of people that want to take ALL of our pets away because of their opinions, not mine

Just caues you don't always agree with something doesn't mean you need to make laws to ban it.
good post....
 

ACooper

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#54
IMO, this is abuse:
http://www.doberman911.org/cases/frito.html

And this is not.


This topic will never be solved on an internet message board, opinions are too "hot" on both sides. That's all I'm going to say on the subject, you all may hash and rehash the issue over and over again if you wish. But I'll stay out of it.
And this is the way I feel too Sizzle..........and that picture broke my heart :( I just don't understand some people.........and I never will.

I will add this........to all the ones arguing against dock/crop, please go out and observe where your cheeseburger or chicken sandwich came from Before-During-and after..........then get back to me ;)
 

mrose_s

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#55
I will add this........to all the ones arguing against dock/crop, please go out and observe where your cheeseburger or chicken sandwich came from Before-During-and after..........then get back to me ;)
lol, i did. Thats why i steer clear of them now
 

CAOgirl

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#56
In my opinion... it should be the owners of the dogs decision... the more rights we keep on taking away from ourselves like whether we crop or dock our dogs and the more rights we give to our dogs... and the end of it all, we wont be owning them... The more rights we give back to the governments the more they will take away...

In Ireland this is going on right now

Dublin (our Capital) city council have implemented a plan to have the doors of their tenants kicked in and their pet Dogs taken away and killed. Period.
Eleven breeds (and any crosses there of) are on their newly appointed Death Squads lists. Including such arbitrarily hand picked breeds as Bull Mastiff (I guess they just haven't heard about the others yet?) Staffordshire and English Bull Teriers.

The 'usual' rest are there; APBT, Tosa, Akita. But these maniacs are even after the bread and butter KC breeds, including GSD, Rottie and Doberman!

Latest reports say they're now creeping to the Irish Government and asking Them to pass a law meaning EVERYONE IN THE WHOLE OF EIRE who owns one of these " Dangerous Dogs " be hunted down and their pets taken from them and killed!

I'd Like to say, " As If! ". " Over my dead body! ". " The people won't stand for this! ". " There'll be a Revolution! ". But, well; We know the real score, don't we?

So we sign petitions. Here's the one. Please do pass the word around:

http://www.petitiononline.com/anvil999/petition.html
 
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#57
Many LGDS including Great Prys were cropped at the ears.
Before these dogs become show dogs. ( i have a pic mind you the Pry looks NOTHING like the show Prys today l
Anatolians, Kangals, Akbash, Sars, Estrela's, Co's, CAS, all regionals varieties there of get cropping of ears if working.

A working crop is different than a show crop.

My Vet who is in his 60's said back in the 70's working Bouviers and Schnauzers had a working crop as well.

I do not believe in cropping at 8 wks for looks.
I do believe in cropping and docking at 3 days.

I do not know which dogs are going for working homes at 3 days.
The dogs i keep have a bad habit of getting into working battles the day before of day of a show I entered.
Very selfish here spending $300.00 in entrance fees to have a dog get a ear ripped to shreds is not my idea of cost effective.
I could STOP showing, or STOP working the dogs so I could keep ears natural _ NOT
I work my Central Asian shepherds in a pack ear injuries on the 2 dogs we have /had with ears was high as well as ear infectiions.

I however have asked my vet to leave the tails at 4 digits instead of 3 and we may go up to 5 so we can get ready for the possibility of it being outlawed here one day.

No one can say these things are done for cosmetic purpuses in the above breeds. Lumping all crops and docks in one DO not do area is wrong.
 
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#58
Something else I forgot to bring up earlier is that cropping serves a dual purpose not only serving a function, but health too (which was discovered after the tradition of cropping began). Dogs with thick velvety ears (like the Cane Corso) can become prone to ear infections regardless of regular cleaning due to the limited air flow (allowing the ear to stay damp, dark and warm - perfect breeding ground for bacteria). A cropped dog has a reduced chance of being prone to ear infections because of the increased air flow keeping the inside of the ear dry, cool and in the light. Other breeds with thick velvety ears (like the Lab) dont have their ears cropped regardless of the benefit with ear infections because there really is no other reason for their ears to be cropped so the tradition was never started.
Not to pick this statement out for any reason other than to ask why
If the health benifits are so great to cropped ears then why arent all "floppy eared" dogs cropped?
Im sure many American Cockers would love to live a life free of ear infections, most however, have them all the time, they are predisposed to them as their ears are so long and "feathered", by means of reason in the quoted part, should Labs, cockers, beagles ect be cropped then?
Couldnt one turn the "natural eared and tailed fans" points of view, to say we are being cruel to purposely inflict such painful infections on to our dogs by not putting them through a one time surgery to prevent this???
Good thought.
However I still will stand on my opinion that docking and cropping is un neccissary, but this is exactly why I choose not to push my thoughts on others. In reality there are pros and cons to BOTH sides.
As Isaid earlier, as long as the breeder (or owner) has educated reasons as to why they choose to do it, and its done properly. I am in no position to say my way is the right way.

PS, I have seen many threads on this subject turn very ugly very fast... I must applaud all the Chaz members who have replied for their respectful posts.
So refreshing to see for a change.
 

SizzleDog

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#59
And this is the way I feel too Sizzle..........and that picture broke my heart I just don't understand some people.........and I never will.
A Little off-topic, but Frito is improving every day, and has gained something like 30lbs in the past few months. If you'd like to see how he's been progressing, click the link below. I didn't want to post the image itself, as it is a progression compilation, and VERY upsetting to any dog lover, and especially any Doberman lover.

http://i8.tinypic.com/6agsl51.jpg

But he could still use donations, to help him along.
 

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