For or against docking tails or cropping ears?
- Thread starter Bob4eva
- Start date
it aggravates me as well when spay/neuter is brought into the argument. there are benefits to the dog as well as the world in general that result from speutering pets. there is zero benefit to the dog from cropping ears.
i held 7 boxer puppies while they had their tails chopped off yesterday. they screamed and squirmed and screamed some more. do they remember? probably not. but we're cutting off parts of baby spines here. i can't believe that's totally harmless.
i held 7 boxer puppies while they had their tails chopped off yesterday. they screamed and squirmed and screamed some more. do they remember? probably not. but we're cutting off parts of baby spines here. i can't believe that's totally harmless.
spaying and neutering saves zillions of babies from an untimely birth, and a miserable death. GO into any shelter and you will see their eyes that say nothing but save me. How in the world can you compare that to mutiliating a puppy to please your asthetics? I should have stayed walking away.
THere is such a thing as an amnesia drug for humans too. Jim had it when he had his bone biopsy for the diagnoses of cancer. Did he feel it? I could tell by the look of his pale face, that even if his mind didn't remember it his body does. And would you wack of your ear if you thought it would not be remembered a few months down the line? I really really want to do that video on ears done to the tune of HAIR. IF anyone can come up with the lyrics i will dig up all the pics you need. THere are very few topics i am this passionate about. Life is so full of so much pain and no one gets away from it in the end. SO why inflict it in the beginning? BEcause it "looks" better to you? Why cant your mind adjust to the natural beauty of the ear. I have drawn enough of them to be forever fascinated in their design. THey drain water wonderfully away from the eyes, they are forever delightful when they are flipped inside out and the color of coral...and best of all they can look like this http://www.chazhound.com/pictures/showphoto.php?photo=9968&cat=500&ppuser=2623 I will be donating a print of this to ARTS UNLEASHED this year as well along with my chi sculpture.
THere is such a thing as an amnesia drug for humans too. Jim had it when he had his bone biopsy for the diagnoses of cancer. Did he feel it? I could tell by the look of his pale face, that even if his mind didn't remember it his body does. And would you wack of your ear if you thought it would not be remembered a few months down the line? I really really want to do that video on ears done to the tune of HAIR. IF anyone can come up with the lyrics i will dig up all the pics you need. THere are very few topics i am this passionate about. Life is so full of so much pain and no one gets away from it in the end. SO why inflict it in the beginning? BEcause it "looks" better to you? Why cant your mind adjust to the natural beauty of the ear. I have drawn enough of them to be forever fascinated in their design. THey drain water wonderfully away from the eyes, they are forever delightful when they are flipped inside out and the color of coral...and best of all they can look like this http://www.chazhound.com/pictures/showphoto.php?photo=9968&cat=500&ppuser=2623 I will be donating a print of this to ARTS UNLEASHED this year as well along with my chi sculpture.
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I agree but what a lot of the pro "leave it natural" people forget is that docking and cropping in working dogs IS for their health! Any breed that I own that traditional gets cropped/docked WILL be cropped/docked so long as I have any say in the matter. Why? Because all my dogs are and will be working dogs! They will also all be left intact unless there is a health reason that mandates neutering (if you question this refer to my article here entitled "Why I Dont Neuter").
Lets say i got a Dogo Argentino. You can bet your bottom dollar that that dog will be tested on a hog and if he does well, will be used for hog hunting (if he doesnt then I would find another job that suits him better). Ears are ripped very easily and even the smallest cut can produce a ton of blood and be very painful. Instead of risking this, it is much easier on the dog to crop the ears (pitbull-type) at a very young age and never have to worry about ripped ears.
If I were to get a German Shorthaired Pointer, I would deffinately take him out hunting in thick brush as they are bred to do. Their thin tails however, get cut up and broken quite easily from said thick underbrush while scouting for game. Why should they have to endure that when they can instead go through one quick procedure and never have to worry about it again?
If I got a Caucasian Ovcharka, he would most likely be guarding livestock from predators. Again, its the same deal as with the Dogo only instead of Boar, he is fighting off wolves, stray dogs, etc.
Not only are ripped ears and broken tails incredibly painful to deal with and can take a long time to heal (broken tail) if it even heals properly, but you also then are at risk of infection which can claim the life of your dog.
All docking and cropping started for a REASON that goes beyond just "looks." Although most pet and show owners continue the tradition just for the looks, working owners continue it because of the function
At the end of the day though, I dont try to push one side or another on anybody. All I wish is that we maintain the freedom to choose! If someone prefers to keep their dog natural that is totally fine with me no matter what their lifestyle (show, pet or working) it doesnt mean thats what I want to do though....
Lets say i got a Dogo Argentino. You can bet your bottom dollar that that dog will be tested on a hog and if he does well, will be used for hog hunting (if he doesnt then I would find another job that suits him better). Ears are ripped very easily and even the smallest cut can produce a ton of blood and be very painful. Instead of risking this, it is much easier on the dog to crop the ears (pitbull-type) at a very young age and never have to worry about ripped ears.
If I were to get a German Shorthaired Pointer, I would deffinately take him out hunting in thick brush as they are bred to do. Their thin tails however, get cut up and broken quite easily from said thick underbrush while scouting for game. Why should they have to endure that when they can instead go through one quick procedure and never have to worry about it again?
If I got a Caucasian Ovcharka, he would most likely be guarding livestock from predators. Again, its the same deal as with the Dogo only instead of Boar, he is fighting off wolves, stray dogs, etc.
Not only are ripped ears and broken tails incredibly painful to deal with and can take a long time to heal (broken tail) if it even heals properly, but you also then are at risk of infection which can claim the life of your dog.
All docking and cropping started for a REASON that goes beyond just "looks." Although most pet and show owners continue the tradition just for the looks, working owners continue it because of the function
At the end of the day though, I dont try to push one side or another on anybody. All I wish is that we maintain the freedom to choose! If someone prefers to keep their dog natural that is totally fine with me no matter what their lifestyle (show, pet or working) it doesnt mean thats what I want to do though....
Um Labs have very thick tails and very well muscled which protects them from getting as easily scraped up or broken 
I would take my dog hog hunting because they friggen love it! (hence testing on a hog before actually hunting - I wont take a dog hunting who doesnt have the right instincts to do it properly OR enjoy it)There are two types of dogs for boar hunting. The bay dogs and the catch dogs. The bay dogs are usually hounds or hounds crossed with APBT and they are the ones who locate the hogs. Once close enough and in a safe enough spot (ie, not a spot that puts the dogs at a big risk - such as thick brush) the catch dogs are released (these are usually bully-type dogs) who go in and hold the hog (by grabbing on to either his ears, cheek or snout) so he wont attack and kill the hunter who goes in with a knife (some hunters use guns but this puts the dogs at risk of a mis-fire) to finish the hog. The dogs are what makes hog hunting safer for the hunters. Wild boars pose a HUGE risk to humans, whether hunters or just hikers. The can and do kill humans.
Before forming an opinion on something I recommend experiencing it first hand, or at least talking directly with someone actually involved in it rather than just taking what other people say about it as fact. Often people get an idea about something and formulate it as cruel or barbaric whne in fact, they have no idea what goes on...No different than when someone calls me out on dogsledding being barbaric and cruel. I try explaining to them the truth about it, sometimes they realize their ignorance, other times their set in their ways, so then I invite them for a training run. After the latter, I am yet to have anybody walk away and still think dogsledding is cruel.
I would take my dog hog hunting because they friggen love it! (hence testing on a hog before actually hunting - I wont take a dog hunting who doesnt have the right instincts to do it properly OR enjoy it)There are two types of dogs for boar hunting. The bay dogs and the catch dogs. The bay dogs are usually hounds or hounds crossed with APBT and they are the ones who locate the hogs. Once close enough and in a safe enough spot (ie, not a spot that puts the dogs at a big risk - such as thick brush) the catch dogs are released (these are usually bully-type dogs) who go in and hold the hog (by grabbing on to either his ears, cheek or snout) so he wont attack and kill the hunter who goes in with a knife (some hunters use guns but this puts the dogs at risk of a mis-fire) to finish the hog. The dogs are what makes hog hunting safer for the hunters. Wild boars pose a HUGE risk to humans, whether hunters or just hikers. The can and do kill humans.
Before forming an opinion on something I recommend experiencing it first hand, or at least talking directly with someone actually involved in it rather than just taking what other people say about it as fact. Often people get an idea about something and formulate it as cruel or barbaric whne in fact, they have no idea what goes on...No different than when someone calls me out on dogsledding being barbaric and cruel. I try explaining to them the truth about it, sometimes they realize their ignorance, other times their set in their ways, so then I invite them for a training run. After the latter, I am yet to have anybody walk away and still think dogsledding is cruel.
Neither for nor against. I am in favor of the option staying open to dog owners if they want to have a veterinarian do it. However, I fought to keep Loki's ears, and I myself prefer not to put a puppy under anesthesia. If I end up with another dog with Labrador ears, I will probably crop. I would just rather try to work with what the dog has naturally first, and crop as a last resort.
I've been to several shelters. I've volunteered at a shelter for almost 5 years. I've adopted a dog from a kill shelter on his last day there. Yes, it's heartbreaking. The problem is, those that are responsible enough to make the decision to spay and neuter their animals, probably aren't the ones contributing to the problem.
With spaying and neutering, what are the health benefits? Was the practice of removing reproductive organs started because it was found it would bring benefits to the animal? Or were they discovered after it was found that the surgery would benefit us? Most of the sites that list benefits, have lists dominated by benefits to humans. I'll admit this isn't comparable, but in an effort to try to get my point across, my dog who seems to love to almost bloat would probably benefit from having her stomach removed. (And yes, I am joking.) Obviously there's a decreased risk of cancer if the organs are no longer present. I'd have a hard time getting lung cancer if I didn't have any lungs. You could most likely come up with health benefits for the removal of almost all body parts. Removing reproductive organs decreases the risk of disease. For those with working dogs, cropping and docking decreases the risk of possible injury.
That being said, my dog is my companion. I did not choose to crop and dock her, she came that way. However, I happen to think she's rather lovely how she is.
As a side-note, I'm not sure if much of my post made sense. I'm having a hard time conveying thoughts through text.
With spaying and neutering, what are the health benefits? Was the practice of removing reproductive organs started because it was found it would bring benefits to the animal? Or were they discovered after it was found that the surgery would benefit us? Most of the sites that list benefits, have lists dominated by benefits to humans. I'll admit this isn't comparable, but in an effort to try to get my point across, my dog who seems to love to almost bloat would probably benefit from having her stomach removed. (And yes, I am joking.) Obviously there's a decreased risk of cancer if the organs are no longer present. I'd have a hard time getting lung cancer if I didn't have any lungs. You could most likely come up with health benefits for the removal of almost all body parts. Removing reproductive organs decreases the risk of disease. For those with working dogs, cropping and docking decreases the risk of possible injury.
That being said, my dog is my companion. I did not choose to crop and dock her, she came that way. However, I happen to think she's rather lovely how she is.
As a side-note, I'm not sure if much of my post made sense. I'm having a hard time conveying thoughts through text.
OC i know i have pointers..and i love their tails. THey are stronger then people realize. I am soooooo happy Victor came with his and it isn't a practice in english pointers. THe hardest driven pointer of all. That alone ought to saysomething. There is beauty in that tail held high during a point!!!!! ANd how could he an mary play tag by catching each other's tail when the other is not looking. It has been a favorite game of all my dogs all the way back. Mary is half labrador and half gs pointer. She has a heavy lab body with a silly whip looking tail. IT isn't as atractive as a labrador;s but she tail talks by thumping it a dozen different ways to mean as many different things.
THey are stronger then people realize. I am soooooo happy Victor came with his and it isn't a practice in english pointers. THe hardest driven pointer of all. That alone ought to saysomething. There is beauty in that tail held high during a point!!!!! ANd how could he an mary play tag by catching each other's tail when the other is not looking. It has been a favorite game of all my dogs all the way back. Mary is half labrador and half gs pointer. She has a heavy lab body with a silly whip looking tail. IT isn't as atractive as a labrador;s but she tail talks by thumping it a dozen different ways to mean as many different things.
I know a guy who trains gundogs.
Proper oldy worldy character. I was listening to them debate the docking ban (him and his other dog people/shooting buddies), and I can tell you what - they weren't all shocked and agast at the idea, and were even pondering on the POINT of docking some breeds.
Suprised me a litte as the shooting people they are, they own spaniels etc, a traditionally docked breed, and they weren't full on NO.
I saw a rottie today with a crap dock - what a shame.
I'm not sure when the ban is coming in here so we can catch up with the rest of europe... I haven't been keeping up with dog politics recently.
Proper oldy worldy character. I was listening to them debate the docking ban (him and his other dog people/shooting buddies), and I can tell you what - they weren't all shocked and agast at the idea, and were even pondering on the POINT of docking some breeds.
Suprised me a litte as the shooting people they are, they own spaniels etc, a traditionally docked breed, and they weren't full on NO.
I saw a rottie today with a crap dock - what a shame.
I'm not sure when the ban is coming in here so we can catch up with the rest of europe... I haven't been keeping up with dog politics recently.
Another point is - when it is legal ANYONE will have a crack at trying it...
When it is banned - you can't.
If you HAD a docked/cropped puppy, you would be against the law (unless it was imported).
If I saw a cropped dog here my jaw would hit the deck.
In turn it means - there are NO back yard attempts at playing pet beautician!
thank god.
When it is banned - you can't.
If you HAD a docked/cropped puppy, you would be against the law (unless it was imported).
If I saw a cropped dog here my jaw would hit the deck.
In turn it means - there are NO back yard attempts at playing pet beautician!
thank god.
Actually I think it means there will be more attempts at people trying to be a backyard pet beautician, because they CAN'T have it done the most humane way -- because it's illegal. People will still find ways to do what they want to do, even if it's banned. Drugs anyone? Unfortunately, I consider this worse than illegal drugs because the ones that suffer underground are living, breathing animals.
If someone has a docked/cropped dog, do police actually stop them and ask to see documentation on their dog? Do they need to know whether or not it's imported upon seeing its ears and tail?
If someone has a docked/cropped dog, do police actually stop them and ask to see documentation on their dog? Do they need to know whether or not it's imported upon seeing its ears and tail?
OC i know i have pointers..and i love their tails. THey are stronger then people realize. I am soooooo happy Victor came with his and it isn't a practice in english pointers. THe hardest driven pointer of all. That alone ought to saysomething. There is beauty in that tail held high during a point!!!!! ANd how could he an mary play tag by catching each other's tail when the other is not looking. It has been a favorite game of all my dogs all the way back. Mary is half labrador and half gs pointer. She has a heavy lab body with a silly whip looking tail. IT isn't as atractive as a labrador;s but she tail talks by thumping it a dozen different ways to mean as many different things.
THey are stronger then people realize. I am soooooo happy Victor came with his and it isn't a practice in english pointers. THe hardest driven pointer of all. That alone ought to saysomething. There is beauty in that tail held high during a point!!!!! ANd how could he an mary play tag by catching each other's tail when the other is not looking. It has been a favorite game of all my dogs all the way back. Mary is half labrador and half gs pointer. She has a heavy lab body with a silly whip looking tail. IT isn't as atractive as a labrador;s but she tail talks by thumping it a dozen different ways to mean as many different things.
I know that some are but from the POINTER magazine i take monthly the english tend to keep their tails, especially when you look in the breeding section. They use to come by when we were at the field trials in Kansas and Missouri. I always envied them for they looked like they were having a lot more fun then we were on their horses with the dogs running like the wind. It was fascinating to watch, and that is when i fell in love with them from beginning to end. I will always be staunch in my beliefs that it is unnecessary. Multiple dewclaws do get torn easily, hernias have to be repaired, but i see puppies as babies, and i will never abide hurting them in anyway for any reason. Especially for a dog show or breeding. THat is just insane. When i see a docked ear i feel queasy. For me, ears are the next most lovely part of a dog, right after the eyes. Even people are learning now to rub their own darn ears to feel better. WE could have learned that from dogs long ago.
I did a sculpture of Victor licking Mary's ear lovingly and it was the favorite of the guild. Unfortunately someone took it off my shelf and damaged it accidently for i was going to donate that this year. I will make it again tho for it is my statement, the only way i can make it to please please not hurt them for any reason that isn't medically necessary. I don't know a dog in the world that frets about how his ears look but i got a lot of pictures of happy dogs playing tag by trying to catch the tail of the next guy. Shoot Mary wouldn't pay any attention to me when she was a bitty baby. She had eyes only for her daddy and toddled everywhere behind him. One day she was on my bed and i leaned down to talk to her, and she turned away. So i picked up her skinny wimpy pointer tail and said ok, i will talk to the tail instead. I said Hello little tail, your right nice attached to this puppy. I swear she rolled her eyes and then she looked me straight in the face for the first time, straight into my eyes which she would never do before. That little tail went thumpathumpathump and she has been my babygirl for 15 years now. How can anyone do that to a dog is beyond me. Ears or tails, or breed them so small they cant carry their pups, or have their teeth fall out early or their eyes pop out, why can't we be happy with the way they are and pay more attention to their abilities, then their outside. I am not saying i don't love doxies, or chis or poms, i love them all i just wish they weren't so impaired by humans. I wish a lot of things were different. I write all this just in case one person might think twice, and use the money for that expense of docking and send it to the humane society. Nothing in this world would make me happier.
I did a sculpture of Victor licking Mary's ear lovingly and it was the favorite of the guild. Unfortunately someone took it off my shelf and damaged it accidently for i was going to donate that this year. I will make it again tho for it is my statement, the only way i can make it to please please not hurt them for any reason that isn't medically necessary. I don't know a dog in the world that frets about how his ears look but i got a lot of pictures of happy dogs playing tag by trying to catch the tail of the next guy. Shoot Mary wouldn't pay any attention to me when she was a bitty baby. She had eyes only for her daddy and toddled everywhere behind him. One day she was on my bed and i leaned down to talk to her, and she turned away. So i picked up her skinny wimpy pointer tail and said ok, i will talk to the tail instead. I said Hello little tail, your right nice attached to this puppy. I swear she rolled her eyes and then she looked me straight in the face for the first time, straight into my eyes which she would never do before. That little tail went thumpathumpathump and she has been my babygirl for 15 years now. How can anyone do that to a dog is beyond me. Ears or tails, or breed them so small they cant carry their pups, or have their teeth fall out early or their eyes pop out, why can't we be happy with the way they are and pay more attention to their abilities, then their outside. I am not saying i don't love doxies, or chis or poms, i love them all i just wish they weren't so impaired by humans. I wish a lot of things were different. I write all this just in case one person might think twice, and use the money for that expense of docking and send it to the humane society. Nothing in this world would make me happier.
I have to ask, in regards to the Caucasian Ovcharka...How exactly does that help them again? Because, erm, I have yet to see Pyrenees, Anatolians, and most other LGD's who have their ears cropped off to the point they aren't even really there. Seems pretty **** hypocritical to me to use that as an example and then turn around and claim it's for benefit.
I have a family member that has tailed GSP's, as well. I see no difference in their tails from a Pointer or a Coonhound, and yet their territory is the same.
Border Collies are not docked, yet Aussies are. Some corgis are docked, and others arent, but there was once even debate as to whether or not they were different breeds.
Hog hunting is not always done with cropped dogs. The breed doesn't mandate whether or not their ears come off. They are dogs, they can endure the same injuries, and it is even less likely for some to endure what others may. Curs have their tails docked, and not to nubs, but their ears are not cropped, and they tend to have floppy hound ears, nothing like a Dogo. Many are not even docked, and still used as avid hunting dogs. I've never seen a cropped American Bulldog, I haven't even seen many cropped APBTs, but yet there's an argument for a rare breed as the Dogo that it must be done? So I guess that can be thrown out too. I am sure injuries happen, but it obviously doesn't happen enough (considering they don't usually just go for their faces, from what I have seen) to warrant a common practice of ear cropping, even among breeders.
As you can see, "traditional docking/cropping serves a work purpose" rarely, if ever, stands by itself as a sane argument.
ETA: As for the spay/neuter argument, it shouldn't even be brought up here, as someone else has already stated. It gets old when it is. It's safe to say many on this board are probably responsible enough to keep an intact dog, but the average joe is not. Intelligent, educated people, fine, don't do it, but be responsible. Others dogs are not so lucky to have someone like that.
I have a family member that has tailed GSP's, as well. I see no difference in their tails from a Pointer or a Coonhound, and yet their territory is the same.
Border Collies are not docked, yet Aussies are. Some corgis are docked, and others arent, but there was once even debate as to whether or not they were different breeds.
Hog hunting is not always done with cropped dogs. The breed doesn't mandate whether or not their ears come off. They are dogs, they can endure the same injuries, and it is even less likely for some to endure what others may. Curs have their tails docked, and not to nubs, but their ears are not cropped, and they tend to have floppy hound ears, nothing like a Dogo. Many are not even docked, and still used as avid hunting dogs. I've never seen a cropped American Bulldog, I haven't even seen many cropped APBTs, but yet there's an argument for a rare breed as the Dogo that it must be done? So I guess that can be thrown out too. I am sure injuries happen, but it obviously doesn't happen enough (considering they don't usually just go for their faces, from what I have seen) to warrant a common practice of ear cropping, even among breeders.
As you can see, "traditional docking/cropping serves a work purpose" rarely, if ever, stands by itself as a sane argument.
ETA: As for the spay/neuter argument, it shouldn't even be brought up here, as someone else has already stated. It gets old when it is. It's safe to say many on this board are probably responsible enough to keep an intact dog, but the average joe is not. Intelligent, educated people, fine, don't do it, but be responsible. Others dogs are not so lucky to have someone like that.
