Fear aggressive Pit Bulls

Discussion in 'Dogs - General Dog Chat' started by PitBullLove, Nov 13, 2013.

  1. sassafras

    sassafras mushinois

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    You think that if an off-leash little dog ran up to a leashed pit bull and was killed, public opinion about the incident would be neutral or favorable towards the breed because the owner wasn't legally liable? I... really don't. It honestly seems like the same chance is being taken, just tolerated differently. If one is manageable, surely the other is manageable?

    Agreed. It's like a weird twisted BSL of its own to me to essentially euthanize dogs for a potentially manageable behavior because of breed. What's next, the weight of the responsibility of BSL is on someone's not-a-pit-bull-but-might-be-mistaken-for-one mixed breed, too?
     
  2. SevenSins

    SevenSins APBTs & One Crazy Banana

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    Let me put it this way, since this has actually happened. My leashed dogs didn't make the news. Either time.

    Nobody would ever be able to say the same if a toddler ran up to someone's leashed manbiting Pit Bull and ended up in the hospital. That would be a headline, period.
     
  3. sassafras

    sassafras mushinois

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    Huh. That's weird to me. I've seen local news stories about dogs being in their own yards, on leashes etc and being blamed for incidents.

    But surely if someone is properly and seriously managing a dog, and aware of their surroundings, they're preventing a toddler from rushing up into your dog's face? Especially given that they are attached by a leash? Or, if you don't have kids yourself, why would toddlers ever even be around your dog in the first place? I guess that's part of what I don't get... if it's reasonably possible to manage DA dogs in a multiple dog household or in public, why is it so hard to manage a fear aggressive dog?


    At the end of the day, it's not that I don't get where you are coming from, I honestly do. But I just don't agree with it, and a good thing for Pip too because otherwise he would be dead in the ground right now as he's redirected on me... which is probably why I'm taking this more personally than I should. I guess there isn't any more to say than that.
     
  4. Shakou

    Shakou New Member

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    I have a Pit Bull who's fear aggressive towards strange dogs as the result of being attacked at a dog park some years ago. In the past, we've gotten loose dogs racing up to her while out on walks, which has resulted in me doing everything in my power to put myself between the other dog and her, including body blocking, threatening the other dog to make it back off, and my least favorite, picking her up if it looks like she's going to hurt the other dog and it won't back off. My reflexes has tripled in speed because of this, and I'm ALWAYS on the alert. The only time this has ever failed and she's seriously hurt another dog on a walk was when we were attacked by a JRT that jumped out of an open car window last year. If given the chance, there would have been a lot more dogs seriously hurt by her. But there isn't because I don't LET it happen. And if I can do that with overly rambunctious, unruly dogs that their owners can't even control, people can do that with toddlers and young children. It might make you look "mean", but if it means protecting your dog as well as the kid, you do what you have to.

    As someone else said, a Pit Bull isn't giving a bad image if it's not allowed to bite.
     
  5. Romy

    Romy Taxiderpy

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    No matter how vigilant someone is, crap always happens. ALWAYS. That's life. Dogs slip their leads. Leashes break. Muzzles come off. You're tired and your reflexes are just a tad slow that day.

    I'd be really surprised if there was a single person on this forum who has NEVER had a dog slip out of the yard or house EVER. It seems like several times a year at least we have members posting about dogs who have somehow gotten out and are missing. And folks on Chaz are what I'd call above average in areas like training/vigilance/responsibility etc.

    You (general "you") can never guarantee that any dog will never bite. If a dog has a bite history already, you can never guarantee that you will prevent 100% of bites for the rest of its life. The way I see it, if your dog has a history of unprovoked bites on people and you choose to keep it around, it's not just your safety you're choosing to gamble no matter how many precautions you take.

    Am I totally against keeping unprovoked biters that inflict serious bites around? Not totally, but I lean heavily in that direction.
     
  6. Shakou

    Shakou New Member

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    My point is, you can, and lots of people have successfully, managed dogs like this. The dog doesn't sound like Cujo, he sounds like a dog, who for whatever reason, doesn't like to be touched by people he doesn't know well. It's her choice, but I find it VERY unfair to rule a dog like that a death sentence when he hasn't even been given a fair chance, simply because he's a Pit Bull.
     
  7. Romy

    Romy Taxiderpy

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    Except that almost all his bites are on people who live with him, and in particular someone who raised him from an 8 week old puppy.

    There just aren't any absolutes for knowing you can keep a dog out of triggering situations and keep innocent people unhurt for the rest of its life. It's unfair to judge a person's choice to euthanize or not based on that, because there always is that danger no matter what precautions you take.

    Anyway, whether to keep and try to manage a dog like this is a really personal choice. Some dogs are born with such wonky temperaments and so stressed by any human interaction, it's not fair to make them live in close proximity to any people, including their owners. In cases like that it is nicer to the dog to put them down. I don't know if this dog is one of them. I've never met him.

    I do see HA dogs as a very different thing than DA dogs. People just do not put as high a value on the life of a dog as they do on other human beings. Especially children, which is the group most likely to get bitten.

    Also, how do you prevent a determined and unsupervised child from approaching a leashed dog? Body block? Shouting? Kids don't always listen to people telling them to stop, and using most methods that are effective for stopping off leash dogs from approaching will probably get you arrested. :p
     
  8. Xandra

    Xandra Active Member

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    Completely agree with Romy, also

    Anytime you have to tell someone your (general your) pit bull isn't friendly or people notice you going above and beyond to ensure your dog doesn't come into contact with humans, you are giving pit bulls a bad name. Well, potentially, some people won't notice or won't associate the behavior with the breed, but many are going to (correctly) attribute your special precautions to you being worried the dog will bite and will remember it next time they see a pit bull attack on the news.
     
  9. PitBullLove

    PitBullLove Member

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    I don't think I have put him into any situations where he is "allowed to bite". His first bite, the neighbor grabbed him, he was 8 weeks old, I had no idea he would bite. The others bites happened INSIDE MY HOME.
    I do understand your feelings. I completely understand both sides people are pointing out, though.

    Yep!

    First of all - it is not people he doesn't know well. It is people he knows VERY WELL. And it is not "simply because he is a pit bull" either. And yes, he is being given a fair chance.

    Exactly. The answer is never taking him out in public. I won't take a pit bull out in public who growls or puts his hackles up or who I have to tell people they cannot touch. The only kind of pit bull I will ever take out in public is one who will be a typical APBT.
     
  10. Laurelin

    Laurelin I'm All Ears

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    Several were when he was a very young puppy. Hell BEAU bit a couple times when he was a puppy. He's such a sweet, stable dog now. I almost wouldn't count bites by an 8 week old puppy. They haven't really learned bite inhibition by that point.

    I also wonder if the ex didn't spank him for peeing on the ground? He was carrying him to show him his accident to scold him. If I'm being honest, that's why Nikki bit me. I was raised that you had to go show the dog what they did wrong and then you had to punish them.... You know how many times Nikki would snap or even make skin contact when I tried that? She would never snap in any other situation but you corner her and she KNOWS she's about to get scolded or spanked and heck yeah... she's going to fight to get away. Your puppy couldn't have bitten because he 'saw something he did wrong' because dogs don't know right or wrong. It's most likely to me that he was biting because he was fearful of what was about to happen. He learned that mess = scary owner.

    Anyways, these are level 2 bites we're talking about after all.

    To be honest he sounds like he's not been trained with the best methods and that makes me leery that the OP could really manage handling the dog safely.
     
  11. Laurelin

    Laurelin I'm All Ears

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    Maybe it didn't make the headlines but it definitely affects the breed negatively in SOME way. It is not just a neutral thing that happened.

    I am extremely wary of pit bulls these days for this very reason. I have personally seen too many maul another dog, heard 'responsible pit owners' talk about their dogs killing other dogs, and had too many friends whose dogs were attacked by pit bulls and injured through no fault of their own. My trainer's dog was the most recent case- attacked at a dog show while in the hotel on a leash. They were simply walking out their door and the dog started mauling him. My cousin's pit killed a golden a few years ago. I watched a pit take off half a mastiff's ear and they had to choke him off. Both dogs in that instance were leashed. I know several owners on forums who have admitted their dogs have killed other dogs (and almost with a badge of honor- well my dog is SUPER DA but he's so great with people!). And I could go on. And on.

    That kind of stuff definitely has shaped my feelings towards the breed and the way the owners seem to be failing to manage that DA... I have known other dog breeds where individuals have injured/fought with other dogs, but not to the same extent. The end result is that I don't really trust the breed at all. I am so much more aware when around a pit bull and so much more cautious than with most other breeds. It has zip to do with media perception and everything to do with how many bad experiences I've had.

    Personally, I would MUCH rather deal with a dog with a somewhat spooky temperament than one who was 'stable with people' that's instincts were to kill other dogs. I'm not sure I'd call that a 'stable dog'. I don't think stability simply has to do with how the dog reacts towards people. A dog that goes off the hilt at another dog for simply being? Not on the top of my list when it comes to stability and safety.

    And I hear other people with the same thoughts too, it's not just me. My trainer won't go anywhere without mace and a cattle prod now.
     
  12. Flyinsbt

    Flyinsbt New Member

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    Not me. I am lucky enough to own bull breed dogs who aren't particularly dog aggressive, but even if they were DA, I would still rather deal with that than with a spooky dog. Spooky is just too freaking hard to predict.

    I was walking my 3 Staffords, on leash, through a nearby park once. There was a family walking on a path, towards the path I was on. Suddenly their little boy (maybe 3?) broke away from his family and came running straight at my dogs. His parents tried to stop him, and to call him back, in a panic, but he was undeterred. He ran right up and swatted my Tully dog on the rump. He meant it as a pat, but it came out as a slap to the rear. Tully hadn't seen him approach, but as soon as he swatted her, she turned around with a big smile, and wagging tail "oh, hi!" The parents breathed a sigh of relief, and came up with the rest of the kids, who petted the dogs while I talked to their parents for a couple minutes.

    If Tully was a spooky dog, that little boy wouldn't have had a face. If her reaction to being startled was to bite, she could have done so much damage in an instant. Their were 3 adults there, and none of us could stop the boy in time.

    I'd rather my dog not hurt somebody else's dog either, but they just couldn't do the same damage in an instant to another dog that they could to a small child. (this was not the only unexpected and dangerous thing I've had a child do to my dogs, but probably the most likely to incite a bite.)

    My neighbors have a spooky dog (GWP, not that this matters), btw, and you couldn't pay me enough to own a dog like that. Aside from the irritating fence fighting, that dog walked up to me on the sidewalk, while I was chatting in a friendly manner with her owner, and bit me. Just a nip, but it drew blood, and if it weren't for neighborly relations, animal control would have heard about it.
     
  13. Shakou

    Shakou New Member

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    I agree. Charlotte's fear aggression issues with strange dogs aren't always the easiest to deal with, but I'm SOOOO glad the problem is with dogs and NOT people. And I DO say that proudly. Charlotte is far from perfect, but if there's one thing I can say with a "badge of honor" is that I never have had to worry about her with people.
     
  14. Dogdragoness

    Dogdragoness Happy Spring!!!!

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    I don't have bullies, I have herding dogs who IMHO are far less permissive with humans then the bully breeds are. All the bully breeds I have met are super good with people (though not with other dogs in some cases) Buddy probably would have had the same reaction as your dog. Josefina? I don't know what she would have done, since I have never her this happen (I am really good at running interference in public and I have no kids who visit).

    Also ppl seem to think that DA and HA are the same thing when they are NOT! Dogs that will kill another dog usually make great only-dog pets. People forget that the fighting breeds are not supposed to be human aggressive.

    @seven sins you are very all over the place, you wouldn't tolerate a dog who attacks other dogs yet your dogs have attacked other dogs before ... :confused:

    I think ACDs and some of the other high drive working breeds are a lot less tolerant of human BS then any of the bully breeds I have seen.
     
    Last edited: Nov 16, 2013
  15. Torch

    Torch New Member

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    You should be proud :) That's the true nature of the breed.

    Rhys was 12 weeks old and got grabbed by a strange little girl when we were coming out of an elevator. Keep in mind he had never been in a parking garage or an elevator. This kid was young and super fast. She bear hugged him and sat down on the ground kissing and loving on him. Her parents were mortified and terrified, but Rhys thought he was in heaven. I'll never forget that, or how differently things could have turned out if he wasn't such a people suck.
     
  16. Dogdragoness

    Dogdragoness Happy Spring!!!!

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    I am surprised how many dog ppl dismiss people's actions like this as "ok" and permissive and I happen to think it is NOT. Luckily I have a dog who looks kind of like a coy dog (so people think ... I have given up arguing that she isn't :/ ) I really don't know so I let ppl think she is, hey if it keeps people away then great :).

    I am not a petting zoo, so I owe the public nothing, as long as my dogs are leashes are controlled my ass is covered, regardless of what they claim.
     
  17. Flyinsbt

    Flyinsbt New Member

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    It's not "ok", but it happens. When the kid rushed my dogs in the park, the parents knew it was a scary and wrong thing, and I bet they worked harder on avoiding it in the future, because they knew how lucky they were. I certainly don't encourage kids to suddenly latch onto my dogs. But kids are kids. Some of them seem drawn to dogs like a moth to a flame.

    I do not want a child bitten by my dog, I don't care if the child's behavior incited it. When I was a kid- maybe 8?- in Campfire Girls, I watched the troop leader's Dachsund take a good sized chunk out of a 4-yr-old's face. (child grabbed the dog from behind and startled him) It was gruesome. Blood galore. Not something I want to see again.

    I'm not going to say that nobody can keep a child-biting dog, that's not my call. But I will not.
     
  18. SevenSins

    SevenSins APBTs & One Crazy Banana

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    And personally, I'd rather have a dog who is bombproof with people and can handle itself if someone else is irresponsible with their dog, because you know full well that the owner of the other dog is just going to stand there with their thumb up their ass.

    If it bothers you less that some asshat allows his giant dog to come charging out of his open garage at another dog in the street, and more that the other dog was leashed but finished the fight he didn't start because he didn't roll over and let the other dog kill him first, that sounds like a "you" issue.

    So what are your thoughts on sighthounds? :popcorn:
     
  19. Laurelin

    Laurelin I'm All Ears

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    I honestly have no idea what you're talking about about the giant dog charging out of the open garage?

    I was just trying to illustrate two things 1) that DA/dog on dog attacks can cause pit bulls bad press or cause people to be more wary of the breeds. People seemed to be saying that a pit bull attacking another dog wouldn't cause an issue? 2) DA means you have to manage that dog very closely. And if the management goes wrong then sometimes the consequences are also very bad and dangerous.

    I don't have a problem with bully breeds or sighthounds (in fact I used to really want a sighthound and may still consider a whippet one day) but I DO think you need to be as responsible as possible when dealing with dogs with high prey drive or with dog aggression OR with a guardy temperament or a fearful dog...

    I think I must've messed up the way I was explaining things or something? Anyways, I am bowing out. That was all I was trying to say and I feel like you're trying to twist that into something it wasn't meant to be.
     
  20. sillysally

    sillysally Obey the Toad.

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    Personally I don't want my dog killing another dog for any reason. As an owner I need to be ready to protect my dog, with force if necessary---not stand there and hope he comes out in top in a fight to the death. I think it would be a horrible thing to deal with, even if there were no legal consequences for me.

    I had a dog hating horse that was leased to a friend when he killed a dachshund at the barn. The dogs owner was a barn employee who knew he risks of letting her very small not horse savvy dog run loose in the barn, it was 100% her mistake, but I still felt absolutely terrible and wish a Snafu had just ignored the dog and let it to on its way.
     

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