dominace help guys

Doberluv

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#21
I agree with you that scruff grabs are not for a novice. Having said that, it pretty much eliminates the need because no experienced trainer would ever have to resort to scruff grabbing either. There is NEVER an excuse or a behavior that would warrent such abuse..EVER.
I agree with you Doc. I am just curious as to what explanation could be given and I'm just sure there's a remedy which we can talk about in regards to the example given. I think it would be nice for people to learn how to train and handle dogs without using human hands in anything that can be construed by the dog as an attack because like you said, experienced trainers and dog people do not ever have to resort to that no matter what kind of dog. A sensative dog, we can pretty much agree would be crushed by that. A harder, less sensative dog could become dangerous and aggressive with that treatment. I'm curious what is thought by Jynx to be beneficial as far as teaching a dog something by scruff shaking a dog. What information does the dog get from this?

OK Boston....I'll raise ya a nickle.
 

Doberluv

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#22
We need to open our eyes and watch instead of compartmentalizing behaviors into buzz terms. So many other subtle cues are required to tell the entire story.
That is so good, so true.
 
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#23
I'm curious what is thought by Jynx to be beneficial as far as teaching a dog something by scruff shaking a dog. What information does the dog get from this?

OK Boston....I'll raise ya a nickle.
Me too Doberluv. I'd really like to know what circumstance would cause anyone to use a scruff grab???

Are we really up to 15 cents......CA CHING!:D
 

dogsarebetter

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#24
well in that situation she did that and told me to do it myself just because he didnt sit within seconds of me telling him too. he was distracted....
no i am not going back to her, she oviously is not doing things right.
although she has a degree in this, and has done training for many many years and titled so many dogs in obidence... her methods stink
 
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#25
well in that situation she did that and told me to do it myself just because he didnt sit within seconds of me telling him too. he was distracted....
no i am not going back to her, she oviously is not doing things right.
although she has a degree in this, and has done training for many many years and titled so many dogs in obidence... her methods stink

You're absolutely right Rabbit, her methods DO STINK and I'm sorry you've had such a poor experience. There really are some great trainers out there who would never lay a hand on your dog in order to help you with training.

Do you need help finding someone else? I'd be happy to help you to research other trainers in your area.
 

Doberluv

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#26
You've got a good head on your shoulders Rabbitsarebetter. See? There you have it yet again....the common thing where people are projecting human stuff on dogs. The dog is being naughty, stubborn, defiant and "knows" better but just won't do it. Real behavioral scientists would say that the dog doesn't think that way at all. It's not relevant whether or not he "knows." He never "knows." He simply repeats that which he has had a strong history of reinforcements for. Period. If he's not sitting quickly enough, he needs more practice and the timing of the delivery of the reinforcement needs to be refined and fine tuned. The reinforcer needs to be regulated so that he learns step by step to get his sits quicker and quicker. It is up to the trainer to elicit the response which is closer and closer to what is wanted, not to be the entire responsibility of the dog. He's just a dog.

Attacking a dog with a scruff shake imparts no useful information as to how much quicker you want the sit to be. It confuses a dog and is nothing but bullying an innocent animal who happens to not have the same values as we do. What in God's name is useful to the survival of a dog in sitting more quickly? Why should he "know" that that is something we value so highly and he is doing "wrong?" Why should he even care if we value that or not? He is not a moral creature and certainly doesn't understand our morals. LOL. What's in it for him? It's a matter of training. That's all it is. And bullying a dog is not training.

I'm so glad you see it that way and you can find out how to train your dog better and better on your own until you can afford a decent trainer....if you even decide to go that route.
 

Rubylove

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#28
I'm a little surprised Doberluv that you think Jan Fennell is a bit of a nutter :D. I think she was a pioneer in new and much more positive training methods, and gives some good insight into possible reasons for behaviours.

Having said that, I actually don't agree with all of her theories (I think `dominance' theories are mostly pointless, way misunderstood and do more harm than good) but some of her methods work wonders. Particularly the ignoring thing. It's hard but it works - but I actually don't agree that it's because of alpha behaviours. That could be part of it, but I feel more that it's because of the pay-off/opportunistic nature of dogs. If they don't get a pay-off they don't repeat the behaviour. It's pretty simple - and not necessarily all to do with ancient pack behaviours!!

Sorry for the hijack!
 

Doberluv

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#29
but some of her methods work wonders. Particularly the ignoring thing. It's hard but it works - but I actually don't agree that it's because of alpha behaviours. That could be part of it, but I feel more that it's because of the pay-off/opportunistic nature of dogs.
Yes, I agree.

Jan: Ignore your dog when he's whining for attention because an alpha wolf will ignore another and you need to act like an alpha to make your dog secure.

Scientific learning theory: Ignore your dog when he whines for attention because that way you're not providing a reinforcer for unwanted behavior and because of behavioral law, that behavior will extinguish without a reinforcer. The dog will learn what works and what doesn't and will know what to do, thereby being secure.

Jan: Eat a cracker before you give your dog his food because alpha wolves eat first and then distribute the food. (actually, this is not necessarily true. The alpha very often brings food to the mom and pups first) But even if it were true, she's saying to pretend you're the alpha wolf and so if your dog sees you eating first, he'll respect you as the leader and won't jump up and knock the bowl out of your hand because subordinate wolves don't jump up on alpha wolves and knock bowls out of their paws.

Scientific learning theory: Control your dog's resources. Ask for a sit first before giving him his meal so he learns manners (to wait) and doesn't knock the bowl out of your hand and spill the food all over the floor. The payoff or reinforcer for his sitting nicely and waiting will be his food. So that behavior of sitting politely will be repeated if he's reinforced for it with food because behaviors which have a payoff are much more likely to be repeated. (law)

Those parallels unfortunately don't continue with all behavior. There are many times where she relates something to pack behavior and it's just not relevant to our domestic dogs. Or she'll compare some behavior to dominance where it isn't dominance at all.

No, she seems like a really kind person and she really loves dogs. I shouldn't have said I don't like her. I mean that I don't like her philosophy where she ties everything to pack behavior and again, like Cesar, pack behaviors which in many cases have been misunderstood. The dominance panacea is way over done IMO. And like Cesar, trying to get humans to pretend like they're dogs or wolves. Eat a cracker first before you feed your dog. Go out doors first. It's nothing but teaching manners, teaching the dog to wait. That's where I see la la land. Again, every conceivable behavior is chalked up to pack theory or some convoluted, obscure reason like dominance. I like her better than Cesar because she does not seem to promote force, flooding, bullying, physical punishment, intimidation etc.

Cesar: When your dog whines, poke him with two fingers into the neck and say "Cheh" because that's what alphas do because they're dominant. And we can't have a whining dog because that means he's staging a take over. He's being dominant. Poor Cesar. He just really doesn't get it about domestic dogs.

Anyhow, I think people lose out when they are taken around the long, convoluted road to behaviorism. They get hung up on a huge array of irrelevant stumbling blocks.

First of all, dogs aren't wolves living out in the woods. Dogs have evolved into something very different and they've evolved to live with humans. And domestic dogs, according to more recent data are more directly descended from a solitary, not a pack animal, albeit they certainly have some instincts left, of course. However, I do not believe they are in a pack with us in the true sense of a packing animal. There is no need. Of course they need a leader, rules, boundaries or they wouldn't co-habitate with us very well. It's how we go about teaching them that is the main difference.
 
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LionRun

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#30
well in that situation she did that and told me to do it myself just because he didnt sit within seconds of me telling him too. he was distracted....
no i am not going back to her, she oviously is not doing things right.
although she has a degree in this, and has done training for many many years and titled so many dogs in obidence... her methods stink
Rabbitsarebetter, I am sorry you had such negative experiences. I use the term, "The jerk and startle" method for what you have described--even though your dog was scruffed not jerked. It is catch all term (jerk to heel or sit, scruff, startle, make submit, etc...a)that I originally referred to when speaking of training for AKC Obedience trials in the early 1970's. Thank goodness many of us have advanced from those primordial methods.
 
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#31
Yes, I agree.

Jan: Ignore your dog when he's whining for attention because an alpha wolf will ignore another and you need to act like an alpha to make your dog secure.

Scientific learning theory: Ignore your dog when he whines for attention because that way you're not providing a reinforcer for unwanted behavior and because of behavioral law, that behavior will extinguish without a reinforcer. The dog will learn what works and what doesn't and will know what to do, thereby being secure.

Jan: Eat a cracker before you give your dog his food because alpha wolves eat first and then distribute the food. (actually, this is not necessarily true. The alpha very often brings food to the mom and pups first) But even if it were true, she's saying to pretend you're the alpha wolf and so if your dog sees you eating first, he'll respect you as the leader and won't jump up and knock the bowl out of your hand because subordinate wolves don't jump up on alpha wolves and knock bowls out of their paws.

Scientific learning theory: Control your dog's resources. Ask for a sit first before giving him his meal so he learns manners (to wait) and doesn't knock the bowl out of your hand and spill the food all over the floor. The payoff or reinforcer for his sitting nicely and waiting will be his food. So that behavior of sitting politely will be repeated if he's reinforced for it with food because behaviors which have a payoff are much more likely to be repeated. (law)

No, she seems like a really kind person and she really loves dogs. I shouldn't have said I don't like her. I mean that I don't like her philosophy where she ties everything to pack behavior and again, like Cesar, pack behaviors which in many cases have been misunderstood. The dominance panacea is way over done IMO. And like Cesar, trying to get humans to pretend like they're dogs or wolves. Eat a cracker first before you feed your dog. Go out doors first. It's nothing but teaching manners, teaching the dog to wait. That's where I see la la land. Again, every conceivable behavior is chalked up to pack theory or some convoluted, obscure reason like dominance. I like her better than Cesar because she does not seem to promote force, flooding, bullying, physical punishment, intimidation etc.

Cesar: When your dog whines, poke him with two fingers into the neck and say "Cheh" because that's what alphas do because they're dominant. And we can't have a whining dog because that means he's staging a take over. He's being dominant. Poor Cesar. He just really doesn't get it about domestic dogs.

Anyhow, I think people lose out when they are taken around the long, convoluted road to behaviorism. They get hung up on a huge array of irrelevant stumbling blocks.
So true Doberluv and I LOVE the part about Cesar and his "finger teeth",..."Cheh" what a dumba$$:rolleyes: ...... about as real, believable and applicable to a dog as an air guitar is to a rock band....:rolleyes: I wonder what that guy was smokin when he decided that his fingers were now magically seen by all canids as TEETH...WOOOOOO SPOOKY!!:D

It's all about cause and effect, a predictable life, predictable consequences....and kindness. I really get a bit miffed when everything is chalked up to this theory or that old study...dominant this..aggressive that. Lots of words to over explain simple cause and effect...

I'm not a "Jan fan" either and Cesar...well you know we're on the same page there.
At least there are newer, more reasonable studies and explanations for what we see our dogs do and less justification for some of the crazy, overkill types of methods used to change or maintain behaviors.
 

silverpawz

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#33
So true Doberluv and I LOVE the part about Cesar and his "finger teeth",..."Cheh" what a dumba$$ ...... about as real, believable and applicable to a dog as an air guitar is to a rock band.... I wonder what that guy was smokin when he decided that his fingers were now magically seen by all canids as TEETH...WOOOOOO SPOOKY!!
Whatever it was, I'd like some. :D

Still, I have to admit, what he does produces results, the dog stops the behavior. Average dog owners won't realize that they're stopping out of fear in some cases or shutting down in others. We see it for what it is and the trouble it can cause because we know there are easier ways to get the result without making a dog handshy or fearful.

But the general public sees it as magic, because it appears to work. And really, it DOES work, and some dogs can take it without any ill effects, others won't, I think we just disagree with the ends he uses to achive the means.

I'm honestly suprised he doesn't get bit more often when he does that. If someone was poking me, I'd be pissed.
 

Brattina88

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#34
good one Doberluv !
as always, I agree with you two :p

Silver - I think you've hit the nail right on the head. The public sees a single episode of a dog magically being "fixed" in, what? 5 or 10mins? He's so popular, and despite his dogs being 'extreme' cases, or whatnot, I meet a lot of people who try his 'techniques' :rolleyes:

Every episode I've watched he does get bit (I've watched all of the first season and thats it. My friend rented it so I made good use of it. Watched it with her and annoyingly pointed out every little detail of how dumb I think Cesar is LOL)

Heck, if he did that to a dog (especially one of mine!) in my presence, I'd bite him myself :D
 

Doberluv

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#35
If someone was poking me, I'd be pissed.
Yeah, no kidding.

Well, I have been pondering along the way as the days go by and I read the words in many posts, "it works"....meaning, a behavior that isn't wanted stops or a behavior that is wanted is repeated. But I think we all have different standards and/or meanings of what it means to work. Simply having a behavior stop does not equal "working" to me. I want more than just stopping a behavior or getting a behavior. I want a whole lot more....stuff that goes with it. And I think people are often leaving those things out of the equation when they watch Cesar or use compulsive methods. So, when they see what they think works with Cesar's methods, that's all they're seeing. They're blind IMO to the whole picture of what potential there really is.
 

Rubylove

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#36
Doberluv - I haven't read or watched anything on Cesar Milan - all I have heard is negatives and to go exploring would just make me mad. What you wrote about the whole two fingers thing - I mean, seriously, do people believe that stuff??? It just sounds so completely juvenile. Staging a takeover when your dog whines??? What??? Sorry, it's just so laughable.

I had to explain to a client the other day that when her dog jumps up on the lounge it is NOT being dominant - it's just more comfortable on the lounge.

Honestly, she and her husband just didn't want to know - they had it so ingrained in them that any kind of behaviour - anything - was a `dominance issue'. It is so frustrating - they got it in the end when I explained a few other things along the same lines, but man it took a while.

That's why what `works' is so different to what `helps'. If you hit your dog enough it will probably stop doing whatever you're hitting it for - so that `works', too. But it doesn't help anything, and in fact just makes things worse. That is too often the case, sadly, with many methods that are so popular - including the efforts of those such as Mr Milan.
 

Doberluv

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#37
Staging a takeover when your dog whines??? What??? Sorry, it's just so laughable.
I didn't actually see an episode where he said that. That was just an example of other things...the dog is in a hurry to get outside for a walk. (probably because he likes to go for walks and is eager to go have fun) And he says that the dog has it in his mind that he is leading the pack, like on a hunt. And since you are the alpha, you need to lead the hunt and he has to stay behind you. Along side you in heel position isn't good enough. Or the dog hasn't learned to not rush out the door when it is opened, hasn't learned to wait. He is being dominant so you need to poke him in the neck with your fingers (aka teeth) and step toward him with your shoulders up and your chest big so you're like the big alpha wolf. It couldn't be because he hasn't been reinforced for waiting until given a release word. It's all about dominance and pack rubbish.
 

Rubylove

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#38
Our dogs have been super spoilt lately - SUPER spoilt (we should know better but we can't help it sometimes!) but you can sure see how it comes out in their behaviour. The minute they get to do whatever they want and WE slacken off they take advantage of it like you wouldn't believe!! They had stopped listening to us at the park, and as soon as that happened we were like, ok back to our normal behaviour. Basically, they'd been getting lots of cuddles on the bed, lots of attention all the time, cuddles and pats and hugs whenever they wanted them, we'd pretty much stopped NILIF - soooo bad of us - especially me because I'm always telling my clients not to do that!

We have both been overcome lately with super-loving feelings for the doggers, and so as a result they have turned into spoiled children!! Now, lots of what they've been doing would be misinterpreted as `dominance' by people like Cesar. However, all it took was ONE night of back to NILIF and not gushing over them every time they breathed and they were back to their normal selves. Sitting and waiting politely by the door, coming when called, sitting for their dinner, and so on. They were just doing what we'd reinforced them to do, and as soon as we stopped reinforcing their `naughtiness' they topped being `naughty'! If THAT isn't enough of an example of the way they think I don't know what is! Dominance my butt - they were just being dogs!

Jeesh, a well-trained dog has good manners and knows what is expected of it. `Bad behaviour' has nothing to do with dominance - and everything to do with what works for the dog and especially whether they've been trained in a way that makes sense to them AS DOGS. I wish more people in positions where they reach a lot of dog owners could see that.
 

Jynx

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#40
Since I'm not that computer savvy to go back and forth between pages and answer all of Doberluv's q's..I am ALL for positive training, but at some point in time you are going to come across a dog that a positive method does not work for. (I'm being general here and NOT breed specific).

So what do YOU do if a dog commits a serious infraction in your household? As in trying to or god forbid bite a kid/ a person? Or tries /does attack another pet in your household? What do you do "at that precise moment" And don't say "well he needs better leadership, he needs to be destroyed, it wouldn't happen in my household, etc" The deed has been done, now what?

What do you do IF it happened, at that "precise moment"?

A serious infraction in my opinion IS biting/trying to bite a person or another animal.

I do not advocate owners or anyone doing this to their dogs, I don't advocate trainers doing it to anyone's dog, in fact I would be mighty PO'd if a trainer tried to correct my dog , I Correct my dog . I do not go around scruff shaking my dogs or anyone elses, for "training" issues. It's counterproductive for training issues. but when a dog commits a serious infraction as I've listed above, there needs to be an immediate consequence and one that is going to come down hard on the dog.

I have certainly scruff shaked my male aussie who had my cat pinned and was going to town on him, and you can bet I'd do it again, he did it twice in his life and has never done it again, LEAVE IT was not working with him, and beleive me he has never suffered for it, nor lost trust in me.

If he was an unconfident dog it probably would have sent him into meltdown and I wouldn't have done it in the first place if I didn't think he was a dog who would "get my point and move on".

My dogs were not raised and trained to be nasty to people/kids/animals, there have been probably 2-3 instances in all their lives where a behavior they demonstrated was NOT acceptable and I considered serious enough to warrant a scruff shake. Did it hurt them? Not at all.

Diane
 

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