dominace help guys

[dogsarebetter]

First of all let me say that Ruckus is no longer in obedience class. I simply cannot afford it at the moment, and at our last lesson she did something that made me even more uneasy. She was talking all this wolf talk, and alpha crap, and mentioned holding him by the scruff of the neck and shaking him if he will not listen KNOWING he is a nervous and bit handshy dog.

Ruckus goes on play dates and he usually plays well. But with my sister in laws lab he displays lots of dominance behavior. They will play well until Goose (lab) gets tired and lays down. Ruckus still has lots of energy left! He will hump him, nip him (not hard), try holding him down by his neck, and pretty well will not leave him alone. And Goose will get fed up with it and hold Ruckus down by the neck. All of this looks playful but I have heard its dominance behavior and it is going too far. is this correct? Should I stop him from doing this? when it gets to a certain point i stop it....

also, is it true that when a dog "pets" another dog or puts his arm around it that its a sign of dominance. He keeps doing that to the rabbits. in my opinion there is no need to him to be showing his status to rabbits. is this something i need to stop? I stop it if he is harassing them too much.

 

[dogsarebetter]

i would make another thread but i will ask here. can someone recommend me a good training book. i made a post before on this and got lots of help but the post got sucked in oblivion and i forgot the names of the books
i did get one book "the dog listener"
not so sure how good it is. she keeps comparing dogs to wolves

 

[Doberluv]

I don't see this as dominance, but play. He wants the play to continue. I would step in if he's bugging the other animals and re-direct him to something else which he can be reinforced for. Seperate him for a while. Let him know that doing that will get him nothing. But doing this something else will get him something even better.

I'm glad you're not still going to that obedience class. That trainer sounds terrible....man handling a dog who simply hasn't learned something yet.

Distract, re-direct to something else. Take baby steps and reinforce small improvements. A reward must be something the dog really loves and must change behavior in order to be a reinforcer. A reinforcer is the only thing which causes a behavior to be repeated. So you have to beat out the competition with your motivation or reinforcer. You also sometimes need to set up the situation so that your motivator becomes more valuable. Sometimes that means bringing your dog away from the stimulus of the other dog or rabbit. I wouldn't leave your dog around your rabbits unattented. They are prey, after all.

Keep practicing at home his obedience skills until you can afford a training class...just a couple of short sessions a day and ask for sit/wait and other little things during the course of the day. But next time, find a trainer who understands how dogs learn and uses gentle methods. The play dates are great so socialization can continue.

Make sure he's getting enough exercise and brain work. This all helps him mature and helps with behavior in general. He'll be fine.

I wouldn't worry too much about this. Dogs play rough and some are persistant like Rucus. Lyric is like that. They wrap their legs around or over the other's back or neck and wrestle and it's just play. If they're not fighting, drawing blood, don't worry.

 

[Doberluv]

I don't like The Dog Listener. I think she's way off into la la land. Some books I recommend highly are: Culture Clash by Jean Donaldson, The Power of Positive Training, by Pat Miller, Don't Shoot the Dog, by Karen Pryor. There are other good ones too. But I'd start with Culture Clash to be sure. Excellent!

 

[Brandyb]

I would definately try and disourage this behaviour. He is obviously getting overly stimulated during play, and can not stop himself when play is supposed to end. My guess would be his frustrations are coming out in the form of dominance displays that don't really mean anything but "come on, get up, I still want to play".
I would correct the behaviour with an "aggghhh" sound by you, or some other loud noise, to distract him, place him in a sit, or down for a minute or two, reward him while in the position, and then, when settled, allow him back to play. This method works very well if used consistantly - you need to make sure that you correct this behaviour each and every time.
Just out of curiosity (I haven't been on this board long) is your dog neutered?
You previous trainer really didn't sound great, and its a good thing that you're not going back.
I recommend any of Stanley Coren's books as a base for understanding dog behaviour, and in turn, helps you with your training. I like his books and highly recommend them because they give you more of a scientific insight (but a fairly easy read) on why dogs act the way they do, which really does help with your training methods.
Good luck!

 

[dogsarebetter]

yup he is altered. thanks for the help so far guys

 

[Jynx]

some dogs know who they can push buttons with..It sounds like he knows how far he can push the lab so he's gonna do it. It sounds like "rough play" with the lab, again, the lab doesn't seem concerned about it? so he's not going to stop probably until the lab puts him in his place..He also could be getting over stimulated in play as well.

As for the rabbits, THAT I would put a halt to, I would work with him to "go easy" with the rabbits, believe me shelties are no dummies, they know what they can get away with and worked with, know when they aren't supposed to get rough with other animals..Rabbits, can be a real prey instigator tho, so I would monitor that really carefully and start working on a good "leave it" command when things get to rough in your opinion.

I also like the books Doberluv mentions.( and no I wouldn't be scruff shaking a dog who is skiddish, intimidated, headshy, HOWEVER, if a dog can take a correction like that and it's warranted, I would have no problem doing it, in other words if that type of correction is going to send the dog into "meltdown",no I wouldnt, but if it's going to be effective and taken as it is intended, I wouldn't hesitate if warranted)
Diane

 

[dogsarebetter]

thanks
he knows the "gentle" command with the rabbit, but he doesnt always listen to me. maybe he actually doesnt know it as well as i think. i would rather him know a leave it command so i will work with him on that.

so far if he gets too rowdy with the rabbits (that is a pretty rare occasion but it does happen) i make him lay down and not get up until i give him the release command. so far thats a whole 10 minutes comfortably.

 

[Doberluv]

I don't think scruffing a dog is EVER warrented and can put a dog on the defensive. Anytime you put a dog on the defensive, you risk not only getting bitten, but also damaging the trust your dog has in you. It's never a good idea to make a dog think you're attacking him. There ARE other ways to modify behavior.

Anyhow...just my .02.

 

[dr2little]

I don't think scruffing a dog is EVER warrented and can put a dog on the defensive. Anytime you put a dog on the defensive, you risk not only getting bitten, but also damaging the trust your dog has in you. It's never a good idea to make a dog think you're attacking him. There ARE other ways to modify behavior.

Anyhow...just my .02.

Add my .02 to Doberluvs and make that .04 cents...there's absolutely no justification for scruffing, under ANY circumstances.

 

[Doberluv]

Thanks Dr2little. Hey! We could really make some money if we keep doubling 2cents every day. LOL.

also, is it true that when a dog "pets" another dog or puts his arm around it that its a sign of dominance.

My dogs play and they play rough. They leap up like a horse rearing and throw their "arms" around eachother. Then one will get on all fours and the other swings the front leg over the other again. Then they go roaring off and turn and crash into eachother yet again. This is outside. That rough of play I don't allow inside. They're just playing and I don't even think about dominance. I don't care about it. I don't allow them to think about. LOL.

Here's Lyric being "dominant" over Chuli:

Here's Toker being "dominant." LOL.

Someday soon I'll get a couple of pictures to show you how they play roughly and do indeed use their legs to wrestle. Humans aren't the only ones who wrastle using their limbs. Kangaroos do it too. LOL.

In other words, I wouldn't worry too much unless the Lab is clearly bothered and defensless to stop your dog from tormenting him. If he looks like he's not having fun anymore, then I'd step in and give Ruckus something else to do.

 

[otch1]

.06 from me, do we hear .08? Lol. Rabbitsarebetter, I'm going to guess that way back when, when you first discussed your uneasiness with this trainer, you didn't go to her and have that one on one talk with her? Let her know what you were comfortable with, how you wanted to handle your dog, before you continued training? If you did, I'm sorry things somehow still went south, this far into training. Ruckus has had issues from day one and I'm hoping you don't give up on finding a good trainer. In the meantime, some good books were mentioned! Doberluv, your babies look so content... what is that little shaved body next to your Chi, under the stove?!

 

[Doberluv]

Otch, I have been lucky and blessed to have such an aimiable little crew. They all are crazy about eachother and I have very rarely any trouble between them.

That little body is Jose. The light must be hitting him in such a way as to make him appear shaved, but he's not. LOL.

Here's a better picture of Jose sitting next to Chulita on a moss covered boulder.

Rabbitsarebetter, I agree with Otch. Don't let that training experience sour you on trainers. There will be some who are more in line with how your gut feelings are. You just need to check them out more, watch a session before signing up. Maybe when you save up some money, you can try again.

 

[silverpawz]

also, is it true that when a dog "pets" another dog or puts his arm around it that its a sign of dominance.

It may not be dominance, but it can be considered 'rude'. For example, I had a GSD here a while ago that would walk up to another dog, prick his ears, stick his tail over his back and smack the dog with his paw on the back.

That's clearly rude behavior, and the other dog was not impressed.

Now, one of my Collies will also 'smack' another dog on the back with his paw, but he follows it up with a play-bow. It's clear he wants to play and he's starting a game of 'tag'.

You have to take into consideration your dog's body language when this happens, that will tell you if it's rude behavior, or just play.

 

[Herschel]

$.08 cents from me! Why would anyone want to hurt their dog? It isn't going to create any sort of lasting bond. Scruffing is totally unwarranted.

 

[Jynx]

I certainly agree this dog should not have been "scruffed" by the trainer, but we can agree to disagree about scruff shaking in general..There are instances, in my opinion and depending on the dog, when a scruff shake can be warranted, no I don't advocate a novice doing this and it isn't done for an inappropriate behavior that other methods would work to correct.

Diane

 

[Doberluv]

There are instances, in my opinion and depending on the dog, when a scruff shake can be warranted, no I don't advocate a novice doing this and it isn't done for an inappropriate behavior that other methods would work to correct.

Could you give an example of an instance where you think a scruff shake is warranted? Also, what would you consider an appropriate behavior where other methods would not work? And why would other methods not work? Which methods? Can you explain which methods might not work and why?

And when you say, "depending on the dog," are we still talking about domestic dogs? What kind of dog do you mean? Do you feel that dogs learn in vastly different ways from one another or between breeds, that behavioral learning science is only applicable to certain breeds of dogs or certain temperaments of dogs...that the main principles of learning do not apply across the board? I don't mean small variations within a training concept or philosophy. I mean different main concepts.

How would it be more beneficial for an experienced trainer say, to do this scruffing rather than a novice? How would it benefit the dog? What differences might there be between an experienced person and a novice where by with the experienced person, the scruffing would be good for the dog?

Just interested in or curious about your take on this.

 

[dr2little]

I certainly agree this dog should not have been "scruffed" by the trainer, but we can agree to disagree about scruff shaking in general..There are instances, in my opinion and depending on the dog, when a scruff shake can be warranted, no I don't advocate a novice doing this and it isn't done for an inappropriate behavior that other methods would work to correct.

Diane

I agree with you that scruff grabs are not for a novice. Having said that, it pretty much eliminates the need because no experienced trainer would ever have to resort to scruff grabbing either. There is NEVER an excuse or a behavior that would warrent such abuse..EVER.

 

[BostonBanker]

Having said that, it pretty much eliminates the need because no experienced trainer would ever have to resort to scruff grabbing either.

That reminds me of a common saying regarding people who use "gadgets" such as drawreins while training their horses - "If you are good enough to use them, then you don't need them." In other words, the people who have the neccessary skills to use the equipment without accidently punishing the horse are good enough to do it without the gadget.

I'll bring it up to an even dime .

Having said that, I've noticed that the border collie at our barn frequently initiates play by putting a paw on the other dog's shoulder. I don't think the other dogs read it as a dominance gesture, as he is one of the best "players" I've ever seen. He is one of only two adult dogs I've ever seen Meg really play with - everyone loves him!

 

[dr2little]

That reminds me of a common saying regarding people who use "gadgets" such as drawreins while training their horses - "If you are good enough to use them, then you don't need them." In other words, the people who have the neccessary skills to use the equipment without accidently punishing the horse are good enough to do it without the gadget.

I'll bring it up to an even dime .

Having said that, I've noticed that the border collie at our barn frequently initiates play by putting a paw on the other dog's shoulder. I don't think the other dogs read it as a dominance gesture, as he is one of the best "players" I've ever seen. He is one of only two adult dogs I've ever seen Meg really play with - everyone loves him!

Wow, we're really raking in the cash!!

You're right BB, Sophie plays with lots of dogs who use their paws over her shoulder. It isn't her play style but she's not one to put up with dominance displays either and it never bothers her when dogs place their paws accross her back in play. I think that dominance theories are way too over used. We need to open our eyes and watch instead of compartmentalizing behaviors into buzz terms. So many other subtle cues are required to tell the entire story.