Fear aggressive Pit Bulls

frostfell

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I can not imagine living in a place where everyone in the world is running up to touch my dogs. Is it really like that? Half the time when I take dogs out specifically for socialization, people just smile and make eye contact after looking at the dog. I have only once had someone grab a dog without asking, and it was an adult woman. Most tiny kids I see are scared of dogs, and once they are old enough to speak, they are better than adults about asking to pet them.

Perhaps it is a regional thing, like spaying/neutering, where the education has just really infiltrated the north-east. I'm trying to think of a time where a person has ever touched either of my dogs without permission, or would have had to grab them because of a slipped collar/getting loose. Nothing. The incidence above was when a friend and I took a puppy to an outdoor marketplace for socialization, and had our backs turned for a second looking at a menu. Not something I would do with either of my dogs, for various reasons, but a nice place to socialize a puppy.

I realize it isn't the main issue for the OP, just the comments that seem baffling to me.

And I do have a dog that I might have considered a bite risk if he was grabbed by the collar or picked up without warning. Gusto growled several times over such things, and would head-whip, although he never tried to bite. I did a ton of counter-conditioning, so now I can pick him up without complaint, and he plays collar grab games regularly. I expect he would not react if someone else picked him up as well, but to be honest, I just don't put him in that position.

I think the OP is doing the right thing by taking the dog to a behaviorist; these things are far too sensitive to be decided over the internet by people who have never seen the dog. I wish you luck with your appointment and hope it helps you find answers you are comfortable with, whichever way it goes.
is possible. or certain people give off a certain aura that makes others think they can do whatever they want. iv lived in 4 different states with my APBT and Am Bullies, and i actually have never had someone come up to me and ask about my dogs, their breed, or anything. maybe i give off an aura of "dont talk to me" which suits me just fine. the less i get accosted in public, the happier i am. my dog is not public property either, and doesnt need to be mauled by every tom dick and harry. gyah i think i would punch somebody out if they ran around me to harass my dog :yikes:
 

Maxy24

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I don't think biting when the collar is grabbed is acceptable exactly, but it's fairly common and possibly fixable. Plus the actual bite incidents involve more than just the dog getting his collar/body grabbed, he is also in trouble, thus getting or likely about to get punished in some way, even if mild.

Most importantly it's predictable and for me it would be avoidable. The OP needs to decide if she can (and is willing to) avoid doing the sorts of things that trigger him, at least while she counter conditions him and possibly forever. I wouldn't say euthanizing is the wrong choice though, especially with the stranger aggression in there. But the biggest problem as far as bites go is grabbing hold of/restraining the dog when he's in trouble, and that sounds WORKABLE to me. Not an acceptable behavior, but something that could be improved and safely avoided in the right living situation.
 

kady05

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i also want to interject, after reading this topic with interest for several days, that do not be so hasty to fall into the trap of thinking that teeth=aggression, like so many, ESPECIALLY pit bull people, do. especially in the pit bull/bull breeds, the mantra has gone from "they are gentle to people, vicious to other dogs" to a far-out batty "no pit bull should lay teeth on humans for ANY REASON!!!!!!!11one" which is unfair and unrealistic, as mouths are a major means of communication, and teeth are like hands. i would not, for example, treat a dog grabbing my hand in his mouth and "leading" me to his toybox, as aggression-punishable-by-death. we all see videos of people harassing their own dogs, oblivious to the whispers, knowing a shout (bite) is coming soon. imagine if we treated each other in the same way? deaf until somebody raises their voice, and then executing any people who shout. thats ALL biting is. A SHOUT. when nothing else worked, or when its warranted, its a raising of the voice

why would you kill somebody for raising their voice?
I haven't seen anyone here that would say PTS if a dog did what you described. Granted, it's a 13pg. thread so I may have missed something.

My dogs will use their mouths on my arms if we're playing rough, but nothing that I'd ever deem aggressive (none have ever left marks on my arms or anything that remotely hurt me). There's a huge difference in that (playful) behavior vs. if I went to grab one of their collars and they turned around and bit me because they didn't like what I was doing. THAT is not okay. Ever, IMO. Especially when the dog is biting its owner and not a random person. I don't care what level of bite it is.


And yes, must be a regional thing, because I constantly have people including kids run up on my dogs when we're out in public. Rarely do they ask permission to pet them. Do I like it? No, not really. But that's just the way people are around here.
 

frostfell

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I haven't seen anyone here that would say PTS if a dog did what you described. Granted, it's a 13pg. thread so I may have missed something.

My dogs will use their mouths on my arms if we're playing rough, but nothing that I'd ever deem aggressive (none have ever left marks on my arms or anything that remotely hurt me). There's a huge difference in that (playful) behavior vs. if I went to grab one of their collars and they turned around and bit me because they didn't like what I was doing. THAT is not okay. Ever, IMO. Especially when the dog is biting its owner and not a random person. I don't care what level of bite it is.


And yes, must be a regional thing, because I constantly have people including kids run up on my dogs when we're out in public. Rarely do they ask permission to pet them. Do I like it? No, not really. But that's just the way people are around here.
or your dogs are cuter than mine :rofl1:
 

Flyinsbt

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I can not imagine living in a place where everyone in the world is running up to touch my dogs. Is it really like that? Half the time when I take dogs out specifically for socialization, people just smile and make eye contact after looking at the dog. I have only once had someone grab a dog without asking, and it was an adult woman. Most tiny kids I see are scared of dogs, and once they are old enough to speak, they are better than adults about asking to pet them.
.
Most people in my area would ask before petting, and certainly even more people than that don't feel the need to pet them. It's just those occasional very small children that tend to come from out of nowhere to grab at the dogs. One of the first I encountered was with my first Stafford, Elmo, shortly after I got him. Little boy ran up, dropped to his knees, threw his arms around Elmo's neck, and with his face pressed to the dog's face, asked me "does he bite?" *cringe*

That was pretty much when I learned that Elmo did not bite.

Anyway, the problem is that the few individuals that do grab the dog without warning and without asking, tend to be very small, and very vulnerable. It makes me really, really appreciate the solid, absolutely reliable nature of the dogs I choose to own. And pretty unwilling to have a dog who is less reliable with people. Maybe if I lived in a less populous environment I would feel differently.
 

BostonBanker

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And yes, must be a regional thing, because I constantly have people including kids run up on my dogs when we're out in public. Rarely do they ask permission to pet them. Do I like it? No, not really. But that's just the way people are around here.
It's possible I'd run up to Barrett squealing!

Now I'm paranoid that I'm giving off an evil vibe.
 

*blackrose

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You are right, I was. I'm sorry, I was just hurt by those comments.
I did contact a certified animal behaviorist, first evaulation (2 hrs) is $250, so I am going with that.
I think that sounds like a plan, and personally a step I would have taken if I were in your shoes. :)

What area are you in? That seems a little steep, for just an evaluation (and training plan?). How much are additional sessions, are you able to continue with them? Sorry, there are as many greedy and poor trainers as there are BYB. Just want to make sure you get set up in a program that will work, that you can afford to maintain.
Well, that is what the Purdue behavior clinic charges for their initial behavior evaluation. Around $250-$300, and then the follow up is an additional $80-$100. So that price doesn't seem off the wall to me.
 

kady05

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or your dogs are cuter than mine :rofl1:
LOL I don't know about that, but really, I don't think there has been a time when I've taken my guys out when I *don't* have someone coming up to them.
When I have Sako & Barrett, people almost always ask what breed they are. When I say "American Staffordshire Terrier" I generally get this face: :confused: so I use that as an opportunity to educate people a bit. With Piper, everyone always knows she's a "Pit Bull". It's interesting, actually.

It's possible I'd run up to Barrett squealing!

Now I'm paranoid that I'm giving off an evil vibe.
Hehe, well, he is rather endearing with his little puppy snorts and bounciness ;)

I really don't mind people coming up to me when I have my dogs, to be honest. I'd prefer people ask before petting them obviously (this doesn't happen too often, but every once in awhile it does). They are great examples of their breed and I'd prefer people coming up to my dogs and having a good experience vs. the unstable/sketchy/whatever Pit Bull thing someone else may have and having a negative one.
 

Maxy24

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I have never had a child attempt to pet my dog without permission, except a toddler who ran at us from afar. But she was a toddler so we just got up and quickly walked away. Children have always been very good at asking and listening when I say no. The only times adults attempt to pet him without permission are people who are actually in my house and people whose dog he is greeting, which is understandable. He doesn't greet new dogs anymore so that's no longer and issue.

So I do think it's regional as well. But perhaps also depends where you are in a more situational sense. Are you guys talking about people running up to you while you're walking around the neighborhood, or are you in a place that has crowds of people? I could see someone reaching out and petting a dog if you're walking among people and the dog is like a foot away from the person. But a dog like the OPs (or mine) would not be someplace like that.
 

kady05

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I've had kids come up to my dogs in pet stores, at dog events, while out walking on trails, my neighborhood.. pretty much everywhere! Was at a car meet with Barrett last night and had a 3yr. old RUN up to him and start petting/playing with him. Thankfully Barrett met him with a bunch of kisses and tail wags ;)
 

Laurelin

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Been out the last couple days for the most part so I am behind.

With having concerns with the OP being able to handle the dog I meant 1) Having a lot of room mates would be a potential problem and 2) The statement that the ex was grabbing the dog to go scold the dog for something the dog did wrong was what had me concerned... At the least taking a dog to where it's peed in the floor or chewed something up after the fact is ineffective because the dog has no idea what you're scolding them for. At worst with a fearful dog, you're going to get them reacting in fear and since the options are fight or flight and you holding them takes away flight as an option.... That is EXACTLY how I got bit by Trey. I just think coming at training with that kind of a mindset is not going to work with a fearful dog.

No one said dogs biting when they get the collar grabbed is ok but just that it's not uncommon with a dog that hasn't been conditioned to allow someone to hold on to their collar.
 

Laurelin

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My dogs will use their mouths on my arms if we're playing rough, but nothing that I'd ever deem aggressive (none have ever left marks on my arms or anything that remotely hurt me). There's a huge difference in that (playful) behavior vs. if I went to grab one of their collars and they turned around and bit me because they didn't like what I was doing. THAT is not okay. Ever, IMO. Especially when the dog is biting its owner and not a random person. I don't care what level of bite it is.
Mia bit me because she didn't like what I was doing. Teeth on skin but no mark. I had been ignoring her more subtle warning signs that she was very stressed. She honestly tried before resorting to a warning bite and when she did bite, her bite inhibition was fabulous. Who is at fault there? Imo her bite was justifiable. To me there ARE justifiable 'hey, I don't like that' bites when the human is being obtuse and ignoring other warning signs going on.

As far as fearful dogs getting rushed, it's happened with Mia and an adult a few years ago. I had let my guard down because it was an acquaintance and I assumed since she had dogs and had interacted with mine for several times that she wouldn't do something moronic. Well... she ran up one day and scooped Mia up and shoved her in her face, making kissy noises. Shocked me and Mia too. Mia just looked horrified and I got Mia away fast enough. I do understand people do stupid stuff. A lot of what I would call 'spooky dogs' though are going to go for flight vs biting as the first option. It is only when pursued that they bite. I think Mia would bite but only in a situation where she was cornered and pursued by someone acting very aggressively, which hasn't ever happened because I wouldn't let it. She's not HAPPY being in situations where strangers are handling her (unlike Summer who relishes it), but she's never growled or snapped or anything like that. I keep any kind of stranger handling to a bare minimum.

With Trey to keep him safe and honestly just to keep him from being anxious, he just didn't go anywhere. He'd panic on walks or anything like that so he was never out in public to begin with. The only places he went were the vet's and then the papillons' breeder to be boarded. He was much happier staying and hanging around the house (we had a couple acres) and just living that simple kind of life. I think trying to force him into a 'normal dog' style life would have been awful for him, but he had a long, happy life just staying in familiar surroundings.
 
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I know in our area you can walk around with a dog, whether it is a cute puppy or my Doberman and nobody usually ever tries to pet them. That is why when a woman crossed the street, then suddenly ducked down with her face inches away from Kris, my Doberman, it caught me completely unawares. I could tell Kris was uncomfortable but at the same time I did not want to jerk her away but my heart was in my mouth even though she had never ever bitten or snapped. I just quietly said her name and she looked at me and I backed away.

What it did do was make her uncomfortable if some ducks down in front of her. She is fine with anybody that just walks up, she will sniff them and let them pat her. My niece who Kris knows pretty well, ducked down in front of her, she backed away and would not go up to her until she was standing again.

I have read through the entire thread and I am glad the OP is going to try and see if she can solve the problem or at least learn how to manage it.
 
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Well this thread has been interesting, to say the least. I have to say, I'm pretty surprised at the amount of people who think it's almost.. acceptable, for a dog to bite if its collar is grabbed..
I don't think it's acceptable at all. But it's a problem that can be addressed, and I wouldn't grab the collar of a dog again who had already bitten at least once in response to getting it's collar grabbed without working on addressing the behavior and then describe subsequent bites as "unprovoked".


ETA: Again, given the environment I'm not sure addressing the behavior is doable for this dog. I had roommates or family members who I didn't trust to take stuff like "don't grab his collar while we work on this" seriously, then I'd make a different decision than I would living in my current situation. But that would be because of people problems, not dog problems.
 

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is possible. or certain people give off a certain aura that makes others think they can do whatever they want. iv lived in 4 different states with my APBT and Am Bullies, and i actually have never had someone come up to me and ask about my dogs, their breed, or anything. maybe i give off an aura of "dont talk to me" which suits me just fine. the less i get accosted in public, the happier i am. my dog is not public property either, and doesnt need to be mauled by every tom dick and harry. gyah i think i would punch somebody out if they ran around me to harass my dog :yikes:
Right. Instead of acknowledging that rude, entitled, pushy people exist instead I have an "aura" that causes people to be douches to me. Kinda like how rape victims "ask" for it, or have an "aura" that invites them to be preyed on. :rolleyes:

Maybe it's just that being out in public with a SD exposes you to a wider array of human beings and their behavior/misbehavior than a lot of pet owners are exposed to with their dogs.
 

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Right. Instead of acknowledging that rude, entitled, pushy people exist instead I have an "aura" that causes people to be douches to me. Kinda like how rape victims "ask" for it, or have an "aura" that invites them to be preyed on. :rolleyes:

Maybe it's just that being out in public with a SD exposes you to a wider array of human beings and their behavior/misbehavior than a lot of pet owners are exposed to with their dogs.
i was actually thinking more along the lines of "looks nice and inviting and welcoming of chitchat and aggressive friendliness" as opposed to me and my giant flashing neon "**** OFF" sign on my forehead :rolleyes:
 

Dogdragoness

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i was actually thinking more along the lines of "looks nice and inviting and welcoming of chitchat and aggressive friendliness" as opposed to me and my giant flashing neon "**** OFF" sign on my forehead :rolleyes:
Agreed, I think I also give off a "asshole" vibe with in the general public (parks, pet stores etc ...) I am always watching or listening for the child screaming "DOGGIE!" To which I put my hand out and shout "STOP!" Or "NO!" In the most frightening voice I can muster, it works very well on adults too.

Buddy might fear bite if a stranger grabbed his collar and didn't let go. If I do it he will freeze or flip on his back if I push it, but we are working on it. With him he loves food so pieces of cut up string cheese work great :). I grab his collar firmly and out pressure for as long as he will put up with it (I use my judgement here) then right before he is over his limit I release and we have a treat party. That method has helped him a lot.

So no I don't think a dog resisting a collar grab (I think all my dogs would at least fight if a stranger tried it) shouldn't be a death sentence ... ESP with the treatment this dog has as a youngster.
 

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The kids that have run up and grabbed my dogs didn't yell anything before they did, they generally just come out of nowhere. And no amount of "asshole vibe" would have kept them away, they weren't paying attention to me, they were focused on the dogs.

I can't see how giving off an "asshole vibe" would keep people from grabbing at dogs at all. It might keep away the polite people, who would ask first, but the people who want to just grab the cute dog aren't paying that much attention to the owner.
 

frostfell

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The kids that have run up and grabbed my dogs didn't yell anything before they did, they generally just come out of nowhere. And no amount of "asshole vibe" would have kept them away, they weren't paying attention to me, they were focused on the dogs.

I can't see how giving off an "asshole vibe" would keep people from grabbing at dogs at all. It might keep away the polite people, who would ask first, but the people who want to just grab the cute dog aren't paying that much attention to the owner.
i guess my dogs are not cute :( lol
 

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