Food.inc

You can overfeed a songbird and it still isn't going to feel compassion. It's brain isn't capable of it.

I agree, objectively no species is superior to another... I value me and my loved ones first and then the species that I relate best with.

Put it this way, could you kill an elephant or a dolphin or a dog with the same level of emotional ease/difficulty as you kill ants? I'm going to assume it would be harder to kill the elephant or dolphin or dog... why doesn't that principle apply to divides other than the insect/mammal one?

Dunno. I've seen jays band together and attack a cat that had a brown thrasher nestling. None of the jays or their nestlings were in danger. To me that shows capability of what we like to think of as "higher consciousness," and so smugly claim for ourselves, even though we are capable of being the most brutish of all the creatures on the earth. Our taste for and gruesome pleasure in wanton violence appears to be shared only by our closest relatives, the chimpanzees.

I wasn't aware that there were any songbirds that mated for life to the extent that geese, swans and crows do.

I shouldn't have said "real" relationships, because pretty much any vertebrate can form a relationship or attachment of sorts. I hand raised some robins once and they certainly liked me, looked forward to seeing me, followed me, hopped up on my finger etc, but I can't compare that to the relationship that dolphins or elephants share or that I have with my dog, etc.

Cardinals, for one.

Eh, Brown Thrashers are parasitic egg layers. They lay/sneak their eggs into other birds nests and if the egg looks enough like the host bird's eggs, or is otherwise confused for one of their own, they raise the egg and resulting young as one of their own. So they, to themselves, likely weren't protecting a Brown Thrasher, they were protecting a Blue Jay. It just so happens that to the rest of us, that's not what really happened.

Seeing as how jays are in the same family as crows it doesn't surprise me that they are pretty smart. We've all seen crows mob owls when neither they nor their nests were in imminent danger. There are also lots of cases of animals adopting babies of other species... I don't think this due to a "higher consciousness" or compassion.

Cats are pretty cruel too, but I don't think they have capacity to understand they are actually causing something pain, like people do. I don't know that chimps understand it like people do either... how do you gauge how one species thinks of another's pain capacity?

Of course people can be violent... I was talking about capacity for feeling compassion and empathy and that sort of thing, in other species. Actually, I was originally curious as to why someone would feel the same killing a sparrow as killing an elephant, continuing with ACoop's arguement.... but this thread has, uh, evolved since then.

I didn't say they should be treated poorly, I said the OPPOSITE of that, LOL. I just wanted to point out that people DO have a different mind set of live stock vs pets. That is all


smkie, first I want to say that I hope you are not taking this discussion personally............you should know me well enough to know that ISN'T how I mean it.

Next, I would mention you did not say if you would eat that stray dog instead of the goat. I'm not talking a "no choice, survival, eat or die" situation (because yes, I would eat whatever I could find in that situation, even a dog if I had to) I am talking about a CHOICE. Goat or stray dog.

No where have I said that ANY life is not important. No where have I said that ANY animal has no feelings. And no where have I said ANY animal (farm or otherwise) deserves to be treated poorly no matter how long they live or what they are going to be used for. Each life IS precious in my mind, but we are conditioned to feel differently towards what we call FOOD vs what we take into our homes to love.

I've known you long enough, seen enough of your posts to know you are willing to do what you can for each and every creature that wanders into your path.........hurt birds, suffering squirrels, homeless dogs. That is not in question here, not even a tiny bit. You would take the food from your mouth to help an animal......and have done so from the posts I've read.

My whole point, the reason for discussing this with you at all is: if you eat meat, you DO see a difference in different types of animals. It doesn't matter if you have guilt for wearing leather and eating meat.........you still do it, but you wouldn't do it to dogs, cats, or other pets unless you had to in a 'stay alive' situation. It's the way we've been conditioned and raised in this country (and many others) and just how it is.

IF i was protein deprived I would eat a dog in a box with a fox and even a green egg. Hunger will always win out. Shoot if I was hungry enough I would eat a weevil and the bean but I would probably swollow both whole so I wouldnt' have to taste them.

I see a difference in their size and ability to be kept easily...that's about it. A stockyard of kangaroos and weasels would be a major problem, cows on the other hand..sighs..they are the card that's drawn because they are big, slow, and yummy.

and the pig fed so many..for so long.

I can agree that certain animals drew the "unlucky" card in being our food. That was decided years upon years ago by humans for whatever reasons at the time, LOL

I've often wondered why THIS animal as opposed to THAT animal. There are other big animals, that reproduce easily, and are tasty besides cows. There are other birds we could raise in droves besides chickens, though I can't think of a good substitute for pigs, LOL

Why not have deer farms? Or elk, moose, buffalo (well I know buffalo is making a big come back and are 'farmed' around here....just not on the same scale as cow) I am sure past generations had their reasons, probably the biggest one was availability and maybe what the animal needed to grow (as in grass or hay) that the rancher could have easy access to at a cheap (or free) price.

ive eaten roo (kind of greasy) guinnea pig (would have actually been good if it wasnt so charred) Rabbit (to me there no difference between a meat rabbit and a pet rabbit)
pot belly pig (fattier than regular pigs but a realy nice flavor), crock (realy did taste like chicken)
i even ate cat once...(yicky meat)

i can honestly say that to me, the definitions between "pet" and "livestock" are 100% absolutly for MY benefit...they are NOT based on inteligence, they are NOT based on lifespan...there partially based on food chain, after tasting cat and being told most carnivore meat tastes the same way, no i wouldnt eat dog unless i was starving, same for cat...

one day i WILL have a farm, and there will be a difference between the goats for milk and the goats for meat...are they REALY different? NO...but ill keep a little more distance form the ones i intend to send to slaughter, they wont have names or handled as much...
will they still get a great life, oh heck yes, but itll be a more "humans hands off" life because if i form a bond, i wont be able to eat it...

i know this, i accept this, keeping that mental difference is what makes me able to say "yes, if i had a farm i absolutly COULD slaughter some of the animals for food"
its a coping mechanism.

Exactly. I do not know how we could possibly know what another species feels. Considering that only a few years ago science thought that animals were incapable of about most of what we know they now are.

having a higher consciousness and being brutish are totally different things. In fact to be 'brutish' requires self awareness... And to me having a higher consciousness isn't the end all and be all of 'usefulness' No song birds aren't self aware. BUT some of the smartest and very aware species are birds (parrots, crows etc)

Just because an animal is capable of complex behaviours does not mean its aware of them. Take all the incredibly complex things that proteins do in your body. Its crazy how complex and specific the interactions are.. but no one is going to say that an enzyme is self aware...

Not really sure what having a higher conscience is good for. OTher than to make you feel awful about what you have to do. Shrugs. IT is what it is.

What is it good for? To explore and understand the universe I guess. Depends on how into quantum physics you want to get . With out aware observation nothing would exist (in some interpretations of the theory anyway..)

To me I think its a gift and a curse. Sometimes I think it must be nice being a dog A dog doesn't care about the suffering of the animal it eats, nor do cats. Other times I am very glad I have higher reasoning and self awareness, even if it does make me uncomfortable at times.

Good post.


I loved the film and I wish more people would take it to heart and not just say "ah its just one of those films".

Its almost like Plato's cave when it comes to certain issues.

It is simply a film about cleaning up a food and not letting companies like Monsanto corner the market.

I wish I could afford to go all Organic (I have almost for Sal) but I just can't swing it right now for me and my wife.

totally off topic... but did you know ducks play dead LOL. actually pretty funny to see. I am BIG lover of ducks and I would eat one but I've heard it's kind of greasy and that doesn't really sound appealing lol. I have owned and eaten rabbit although I didn't eat the rabbit I owned.

as for a deer farm... perhaps it's because they are so overpopulated in the wild that they don't farm them or... could you imagine how high they would have to build fences? I've seen deer in this one corn field that is fenced off with a fence that is at least 7 feet high and they jump it and clear it without issue lol

agreed sparks lol!

duck does tend to be greasy and its all dark meat (same goes for goose).
but i do enjoy duck breast with a home made orange sauce, once in a while.

I like Duck

but I like dark meat

Oprah is talking about this documentary on her show today. Not that I watch Oprah almost ever but this conversation caught my eye. I admit, Eric and I are interested enough add it to our netflix list.

They do have deer farms. Maybe not traditional white tails but we have a lot of antelope and european deer farmed around here.