You can't train enthusiam

lizzybeth727

Active Member
Joined
Nov 9, 2007
Messages
6,403
Likes
0
Points
36
Location
Central Texas
#21
There is a technique where you train focus while walking using a lure. I can't seem to get that timing down.
IMO, lures work to make people think their dogs are focused on them; actually, most of the time the dog is only focused on the lure and if you try to take that out of the equation you'll find that the dog is no more focused than before you started training.

What Dekka is suggesting you do with the tennis ball, is to use it as a reward for good behavior, not as a lure to get the good behavior. So, when Jax is focused on you, you can mark that behavior (with a clicker or marker word) and then toss the tennis ball as his reward for doing the good behavior, just as you would give a treat as a reward for good behavior.

Are you doing clicker training? Didn't you say you were reading "Control Unleashed"? I thought there were exercises in there about how to build focus?
 

Dekka

Just try me..
Joined
May 14, 2007
Messages
19,779
Likes
3
Points
38
Age
48
Location
Ontario
#22
I would like to see that. There is a technique where you train focus while walking using a lure. I can't seem to get that timing down.

BTW, I tried using a Tennis ball to distract Peyton. Not much luck.
YouTube - Fever Agility Contact training is one way to use a ball as reward, but only works if your dog has good impulse control. How I would use it.. dog goes into the cued position (the two on two off for example in the clip) and then you say 'yes' or click then throw the ball.
 

elegy

overdogged
Joined
Apr 22, 2006
Messages
7,720
Likes
1
Points
0
#23
CU's gimme a break game is great for building focus.

i do a lot of training with steve using a ball. i keep it in my pocket, and use a clicker or a marker word to mark the behavior i want, then dig the ball out and throw. steve would pretty much sell his soul for a tennis ball, so i've been able to build a lot of enthusiasm for behaviors by combining them with his favorite thing on earth.
 

JoeLacy

New Member
Joined
Sep 30, 2007
Messages
493
Likes
0
Points
0
#24
I have CU, read 1/2 of it and understood less than when I started, got tired of it and set it down.

I'm just a guy with a couple of dogs, I have no aspirations to become a full time trainer/ behaviorists. I don't need a Doctorate is all this, dog training 102 is fine.
 

JoeLacy

New Member
Joined
Sep 30, 2007
Messages
493
Likes
0
Points
0
#25
CU's gimme a break game is great for building focus.

i do a lot of training with steve using a ball. i keep it in my pocket, and use a clicker or a marker word to mark the behavior i want, then dig the ball out and throw. steve would pretty much sell his soul for a tennis ball, so i've been able to build a lot of enthusiasm for behaviors by combining them with his favorite thing on earth.
I'll go look that up, thanks.
 

corgipower

Tweleve Enthusiest
Joined
Sep 19, 2007
Messages
8,233
Likes
0
Points
36
Location
here
#26
IMO, lures work to make people think their dogs are focused on them; actually, most of the time the dog is only focused on the lure and if you try to take that out of the equation you'll find that the dog is no more focused than before you started training.
^This^.

The way I use a lure to train the dog to look up at me is a technique that builds muscle memory, but doesn't truly teach the dog to focus on me. It looks really snazzy when the dog's head is up and he's prancing and kicking out with his front toes, but most people don't need such a thing.
 

lizzybeth727

Active Member
Joined
Nov 9, 2007
Messages
6,403
Likes
0
Points
36
Location
Central Texas
#28
That looks pretty precise to me.

Plus the dog didn't really take his eyes off the handler throughout the whole course. Which is great for Rally and I'm sure they spent a lot of time training that, but to ask for THAT level of attention, all the time you're with your dog, is IMO not terribly necessary. Plus the dog would get a crick in his neck. :)
 

JoeLacy

New Member
Joined
Sep 30, 2007
Messages
493
Likes
0
Points
0
#29
That looks pretty precise to me.

Plus the dog didn't really take his eyes off the handler throughout the whole course. Which is great for Rally and I'm sure they spent a lot of time training that, but to ask for THAT level of attention, all the time you're with your dog, is IMO not terribly necessary. Plus the dog would get a crick in his neck. :)
Yes, ouch. I saw one the other day so extreme, the dog held his head literately on the handlers thigh the whole time. Hard to walk with a dog on top of you. :) I'm not looking for that either.

Just something on command, "focus". Jax heals just fine and doesn't get a crick in his neck and can actually see where he's going and I don't trip over him.

Here's the real deal. I've picked my agility trainer but I can't get accepted without some serious control. If I had the control, I would go straight to agility. I don't have that control and was thinking maybe I'll do Rally first, gain the focus and control then move on. I just don't know how to circumvent the Rally process.
 

lizzybeth727

Active Member
Joined
Nov 9, 2007
Messages
6,403
Likes
0
Points
36
Location
Central Texas
#30
Why don't you just take an obedience class? There are a lot of people who don't care about Rally or obedience competitions, but who do want a little bit more obedience on their dogs than a basic CGC. If nothing else you could take the intermediate and advanced classes at Petsmart, working in that environment is very challenging for most dogs!

I do agility with my dog and I've never taken a Rally class or any competetive obedience. Of course those would be helpful, but not necessary. If you have an agility trainer picked out, you could also get their advice about what you need and which class would be a good way to get that.
 

JoeLacy

New Member
Joined
Sep 30, 2007
Messages
493
Likes
0
Points
0
#31
Lizzy, I think that probably makes the most sense.

I'm not into the rally thing anyway. I just thought that's where I would gain the control. I'm not even sure we would do agility for that matter but it might be fun to try.

What I need is myself trained so I can work with both Jax and Peyton. I can teach sit, down, stay, heal, leave it, drop it and so on. It's those "other" behaviors I seem to be having trouble. Peyton knows "look at me" but won't hold focus during a walk. Jax does not know that yet at all in spite of my best try.
 

adojrts

New Member
Joined
Dec 27, 2006
Messages
4,089
Likes
0
Points
0
Location
Ontario, Canada
#32
I think taking a Rally course is just what you need, especially if you are thinking about doing agility (regardless of whether you intend to compete or not in either). Control and self control is a must for agility, therefore taking classes in either Rally, obedience or an agility foundations classes is a good idea.
I believe that the main reason many people quit agility is because they don't have control and they get frustrated etc. Not to mention it is also a safety issue for your dog.
The good instructors for agility require that a dog be under control at least to some degree.

Joe, one of the easiest ways to start 'focus' is in the home, anytime your dog looks at you, say Yes and give them the reward that they value. So if Jax, is laying in the livingroom on the floor and you are sitting watching t.v and he looks at you, say Yes! and toss that ball for him. It wont take him long before he is watching you, A LOT.

Your also 'labelling' your dogs which puts limits on them. If I am not mistaken, you haven't had him for very long and in a few months or weeks he could a completely different dog. So what if it is taking him a bit longer to learn some basic obedience at this time. That doesn't mean he will always be that way and btw fast reponses and a quicker learning curve is the responsibility of the owner not the animal. It's our job to figure out how to teach them what we want them to know and not for them to struggle trying to figure out what we want.

.......And I have had the pleasure of knowing people and animals that were pure athletes along with having the brains of a rocket scientist.......:)
 

wildlola

New Member
Joined
Nov 6, 2009
Messages
4
Likes
0
Points
0
#33
I don't know that I agree with that trainer, but I do think some dogs just aren't as enthusiastic or 'motivated' as others... dogs have personalities just like humans and this can obviously vary a lot from dog to dog. But also although they can have different dispositions, I do believe that the owner can influence how they are raised, and like another user mentioned, you just have to find what makes your dog happy or what motivates it
 

JoeLacy

New Member
Joined
Sep 30, 2007
Messages
493
Likes
0
Points
0
#34
You're right adojrts, I don't know what I have yet in Jax. Training Jax to do anything is painfully slow.

I'm going to be 100% honest here. I've had him for 5 weeks and I barley have the clicker loader and that's a "sometimes". He just is not connecting the dots for whatever reason and I can't seem to get that "spark" in his eyes.

He has other outstanding attributes like his temperament but as least as of today, I would not call him quick witted. Jax moves slow like a senior dog, yet he's 15 months old. I have no idea why this is happening. Not settled in yet, mentally slow from birth, unsure he's going to make a mistake and fear have all been considered.

I don't know how Jax will turn out, but what I can say as of today, it is a very slow go to teach anything at all. He is not reactive by nature. Jax doesn't over react to anything at all, except when spooked and I find it hard to get him to react to any training.

Having a non reactive dog is a good but at the same time, if he does not react with training and I can't motivate him. I've said here before, I've had a hard time finding something that "sparks" and motivates Jax and that continues today. Not being able to find something that motivates Jax in the first place, then his apparent inability to connect the dots for whatever reason, makes training anything at all incredibly slow. That's really where we are today.

I could not ask for a sweeter, more loyal, calmer Border Collie. He's just a really wonderfully soft, non demanding dog to have around. I'm just trying to turn the lights on and get him going if I plan to to do anything at all with him past where he is today.

Having said all that, if Jax never learns another single thing, he would still be undeniably better mannered and completely manageable in a variety of situations than most of the dogs I encounter.

You're right about Agility and needing control. The trainer I spoke with asked if Jax would go off leash and stay by my side or wander off and visit other dogs. I had to be honest and say no. Jax will wander, not for other dogs but hunting Tennis balls, sniffing around. I need that next level of control if I plan to do anything past CGC but even if I had that next level, it would be unclear if I could motivate him.

My timing with toy training is horrible and I know it. I won't toy train until I know I have it down. Jax is hard enough to train once, much less re-train. I have to be careful here.

Jax is not fearful of me, but shows "reserve" when I'm training him.
 

DanL

Active Member
Joined
Oct 15, 2005
Messages
3,933
Likes
0
Points
36
Age
61
#35
When I read the 1st sentence of the 1st post, the thing that popped into my head was "drive". Many times drive = enthusiasm, and you can't teach a dog to have more drive than he is born with. You can maximize it on a dog that isn't showing much drive by proper motivation and training, but you can't bring out what isn't there to begin with. It'd be like teaching me to be a sprinter. I might have the desire and motivation to do it, but I'll never get past a certain level.

Both Daisy and Gunnar have good drive for chasing. If I hold one by the collar and throw a ball, (not giving any sit or wait type of commands) one of them is pulling against me and barking excitedly trying to get the ball while the other will just stand there, tail wagging, waiting patiently for a release. The natural ability of one far exceeds the other, but both enjoy chasing the ball. I could never bring Daisy's level of desire for the ball to the level that Gunnar naturally has, but I can do things that make her want the ball more than if I just threw it for her. Gunnar will search for a ball until he finds it, no matter how long it takes. 20 minutes? No problem. Daisy will give up in a couple minutes and come to you to help her find it.
 

JoeLacy

New Member
Joined
Sep 30, 2007
Messages
493
Likes
0
Points
0
#36
When I read the 1st sentence of the 1st post, the thing that popped into my head was "drive". Many times drive = enthusiasm, and you can't teach a dog to have more drive than he is born with.
Hi Dan,

That may be what I'm seeing but I see a different dog at the dog park. Much more focused and driven to play ball. When he plays with Peyton he's fun, energetic and enthusiastic. Give him a command though and he moves very very slow. Try to teach him something and he almost shuts down. That';s the problem with a rescue, I don't know what this guy has been through. Whatever it was, Jax is what I would call a soft dog today.

Jax lacks confidence I think until he knows without a doubt, he is right. If that fear is freezing him and is getting in the way of him connecting the dots, I don't know. It's like there is an enthusiastic BC puppy inside him "somewhere" and I've seen it. It's just that I don't know how to bring it out.

You know that wild look all out dogs get in their eye when they are reallt amped. I'v
 

Brandyb

New Member
Joined
Dec 3, 2006
Messages
560
Likes
0
Points
0
Location
Ontario
#37
Hi Dan,

That may be what I'm seeing but I see a different dog at the dog park. Much more focused and driven to play ball. When he plays with Peyton he's fun, energetic and enthusiastic. Give him a command though and he moves very very slow. Try to teach him something and he almost shuts down. That';s the problem with a rescue, I don't know what this guy has been through. Whatever it was, Jax is what I would call a soft dog today.

Jax lacks confidence I think until he knows without a doubt, he is right. If that fear is freezing him and is getting in the way of him connecting the dots, I don't know. It's like there is an enthusiastic BC puppy inside him "somewhere" and I've seen it. It's just that I don't know how to bring it out.

You know that wild look all out dogs get in their eye when they are reallt amped. I'v
Have you tried making training just a fun, silly game, removing the seriousness from it?? High pitched voice, crazy praise, lots of play and ball as reward. Loose and fun, not strict, or demanding. Perhaps if you stand when training, and that makes him nervous, sit on the floor with him instead, get on a level that makes him comfortable. There is no need to be formal about it at this point if you are trying to build confidence in him.
And, your timing with the ball reward doesn't have to be exact. Just keeping practicing and using it as a reward and you'll get the hang of it. :)

I agree with Dan, you can train enthusiasm, but you can't change the drive of a dog if it's not genetically present. You can build enthusiasm for an object, toy, food, learning etc. but you can't really encourage a drive when there isn't one to encourage. You can, however, build upon a drive if it is genetically present in the dog, but has not yet surfaced due to new environment, fear, hesitation, stress etc. Give him a little more time to get comfortable, and you may see a different dog. Some dogs take a lot longer to become themselves in a new environment...days, weeks even months.

A game I use for control and focus, that really works well, is holding a coveted object in both hands (either food or toy) out to the side of you, and as soon as the dog looks at your face, instead of coveted object in hands, mark (yes, good etc.) and reward. Throw toy, or give the food. Eventually work up to longer periods that the dog has to hold the look at you, always with the reward for doing it. Start at just a second in a low distraction environment, and work up to a minute in small intervals. Then change to a more distracting environment, starting once again at a second, and work up. I've found that this helps to focus the dog (obviously), teaches some self control but at the same time maintains the enthusiasm for the coveted object/food with the dog learning to control his behaviour in order to receive the reward. You can eventually add a "look at me" command to utilize in different circumstances. I like eye contact, so I go for the direct stare and reward. However, if your dog is unsure about the eye contact, reward when he looks at your neck, your chin, your forehead etc. Don't ask for full direct eye contact if it's going to make him nervous. Work up to that.

Good luck, it can be disheartening to work with a dog who seems to have no motivation for training, but there is always something that the dog likes/wants, so use that to your advantage when training. :)
 
Joined
Apr 17, 2006
Messages
2,550
Likes
0
Points
36
#38
I have to agree that there is a point where you cannot build much drive. Argon is a lovely dog. He is also the most unmotivated creature I have ever met. Treats, toys, affection, nothing really gets him revved up. After a point, and asking for help here, it was just sort of agreed that he was unmotivated, and I should enjoy him for what he was, not what he could never be.
Neon on the other hand is quite easily motivated and very focused and drivey. The difference in working with them is night and day.
 

adojrts

New Member
Joined
Dec 27, 2006
Messages
4,089
Likes
0
Points
0
Location
Ontario, Canada
#39
Joe,

Then stop training and start playing with him. Please also keep in mind that all behaviours that we train are just tricks on different levels, right?

Here is a link, I have a couple of these books/dvd's and they are good. Everything listed is very good, and they are not expensive nor are they a deep read either.

One of my fav's is McConnell's, Play Together, Stay Together and you wont find a better book for 10 bucks!! (unless it is her other ones for the same price lol) Great little books, packed full of very useful information that truely are easy to read.

Fiesty Fido
Feeling Outnumbered?
The Cautious Canine
 

Members online

No members online now.
Top