would you own a dog-aggressive dog?
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I would like to discuss this DA thing from both sides of the coin:
I owned a DA dog. Mike was DA, though not severely, enough so that he could not meet with dogs he did not know (it took a few months to intro him to Wally and Teeny). Owning a DA dog sucked, but wasn't impossible. He never once connected with another dog while I owned him, and he was not PTS because of his DA. But he was also okay with my pack (provided he was fully supervised, I didn't trust him unsupervised as far as I could throw him). From owning a DA dog I do not condemn or feel bad for responsible DA dog owners.
My non-DA dog was attacked by a DA dog. Wally was attacked by a DA dog, who he's known for 4 years and who he's been fine with. Wally is suffering from severe whiplash and 2 puncture wounds. The situation fricking sucks. But I don't hate the dog who did it, nor do I hate the owner. Nor do I think he needs to be put down. It was a shittty situation and in his 6 years of being DA this is the first time he's ever connected with another dog. From being the owner of a dog who was severely attacked by a DA dog I do not condemn or feel bad for responsible DA dog owners.
I currently am in love with a bully breed (Alapaha), and obviously bully breeds are prone to being DA. But through intense socialization and carefully making additions to my pack, I believe that I can have a social solid pack around me. And if one turns out to be DA how I would deal with it would truly depend on the situation.
I will be adding in a 3.5 year old Alapaha to my pack within the year. He is absolutely non-DA at all. If he was even remotely DA I would not have considered him (even though I absolutely ADORE this dog). I want peace in my multi-dog household.
ETA: Please don't think that I believe DA can be socialized out a bully breed. I just believe that through intense socialization of a bully breed you are more likely to be able to control a DA dog around other dogs because they will fully understand the canine social interactions.
I owned a DA dog. Mike was DA, though not severely, enough so that he could not meet with dogs he did not know (it took a few months to intro him to Wally and Teeny). Owning a DA dog sucked, but wasn't impossible. He never once connected with another dog while I owned him, and he was not PTS because of his DA. But he was also okay with my pack (provided he was fully supervised, I didn't trust him unsupervised as far as I could throw him). From owning a DA dog I do not condemn or feel bad for responsible DA dog owners.
My non-DA dog was attacked by a DA dog. Wally was attacked by a DA dog, who he's known for 4 years and who he's been fine with. Wally is suffering from severe whiplash and 2 puncture wounds. The situation fricking sucks. But I don't hate the dog who did it, nor do I hate the owner. Nor do I think he needs to be put down. It was a shittty situation and in his 6 years of being DA this is the first time he's ever connected with another dog. From being the owner of a dog who was severely attacked by a DA dog I do not condemn or feel bad for responsible DA dog owners.
I currently am in love with a bully breed (Alapaha), and obviously bully breeds are prone to being DA. But through intense socialization and carefully making additions to my pack, I believe that I can have a social solid pack around me. And if one turns out to be DA how I would deal with it would truly depend on the situation.
I will be adding in a 3.5 year old Alapaha to my pack within the year. He is absolutely non-DA at all. If he was even remotely DA I would not have considered him (even though I absolutely ADORE this dog). I want peace in my multi-dog household.
ETA: Please don't think that I believe DA can be socialized out a bully breed. I just believe that through intense socialization of a bully breed you are more likely to be able to control a DA dog around other dogs because they will fully understand the canine social interactions.
Wait.
I need to modify my answer. If I was dogless, and looking to adopt or add a dog to my household, no, I would not say no to a dog because of being DA.
If I already had dogs? That's a different story. I'm not into crating and rotating for a dog's entire lifetime. If I had to because I owned two dogs and one of them became DA, then I would deal. But I doubt I would willingly put myself into that type of situation.
I need to modify my answer. If I was dogless, and looking to adopt or add a dog to my household, no, I would not say no to a dog because of being DA.
If I already had dogs? That's a different story. I'm not into crating and rotating for a dog's entire lifetime. If I had to because I owned two dogs and one of them became DA, then I would deal. But I doubt I would willingly put myself into that type of situation.
YOur all made of better stuff then me. I Don't want my animals to do anything like that or be exposed to anything like that and i make sure it doesn't happen. Gums torn and holes in throats make my stomach flip over and i feel queesy. SO i have stated my opinion which i have a right to. AS you have a right to yours. I haven't read anything that makes me change my mind that no one is a hundred percent and a da dog is a danger and when someone is going into adopt a dog at a shelter, and the choice is there, i will never understand why they would willingly bring home a dog that is labeled DA. I would want to see that dog for myself, i wouldn't readily accept someone else's opinion because i trust my own judgement when it comes to dog. But if it was one that got that look in it's eye I would know, and i would pass to a dog that i feel is more likely to have the kind of life i think a dog deserves. My dogs are public dogs, i think they need that kind of stimulation and that a backyard and a house is not enough. EVen for a CHi. But i also know that i just described 75 percent of the canine population in AMerica. A back yard, and a house. IF you can secure it to fort knox then have all the DA dogs you want. But no one has the right to inflict that on their neighbors and that is why we have laws that will protect the rest that don't have DA dogs. Yes there is all levels, and their are all kinds of owners. Keeps the courts happy.
wouldn't want my cat killed either, and the cat has a right to his own yard too. If he walks in your yard, then i guess it can be cat chow. Because on your property you allow that situation to exist.
wouldn't want my cat killed either, and the cat has a right to his own yard too. If he walks in your yard, then i guess it can be cat chow. Because on your property you allow that situation to exist.
Would you be willing to own a dog-aggressive dog? Yes, but only if it was my own dog who became dog aggressive later in life. Tango was dog reactive (different than outright aggression, but just as difficult to deal with) and it made life miserable sometimes as I couldn't do things with her in public that I like to do with my dogs.
Would you adopt a dog already known to be dog-aggressive? Chances are not. I don't want to be a single dog home... I like at least two, and a DA dog would be no good for me because of that.
What would you do if your own formerly unaggressive dog became dog-aggressive? Deal with the dog to the best of my ability, find a behaviourist, and do a lot of training and desensitizing work. That's what I did when Tango became highly reactive at a little over a year old, anyway.
What would you do if your dog attacked another dog while your dog was off-leash in a public place?
Apologize profusely, offer to pay vet bills if my dog caused serious damage, and then probably stay away from that area for a long time. But if I had a DA dog, he/she wouldn't be allowed off leash where there are other dogs around to prevent such an event.
Would you adopt a dog already known to be dog-aggressive? Chances are not. I don't want to be a single dog home... I like at least two, and a DA dog would be no good for me because of that.
What would you do if your own formerly unaggressive dog became dog-aggressive? Deal with the dog to the best of my ability, find a behaviourist, and do a lot of training and desensitizing work. That's what I did when Tango became highly reactive at a little over a year old, anyway.
What would you do if your dog attacked another dog while your dog was off-leash in a public place?
Apologize profusely, offer to pay vet bills if my dog caused serious damage, and then probably stay away from that area for a long time. But if I had a DA dog, he/she wouldn't be allowed off leash where there are other dogs around to prevent such an event.
I still don't understand why you think owning a DA dog is such a burden. I am just as careful with my reactive dog as I am my non-reactive completely dog-wise dog. I take them all out for walks, we leave the house and go out in public. Thats what a leash law is for. To keep MY dogs and other people's dogs safe.
I ALWAYS keep an eye out for other dogs. Not because my dog is a danger or a public nuisance, but because I don't trust owners. Perfect example. I walk at the local park every day. I take my reactive (DA if pushed too far) dog to walk/train. I spotted a guy with a young rottie mix, he had the dog on a leash but was doing some pretty dumb things. He let the dog chase the geese into the water and then at one point he let the dog off leash. He was in a public park, there are "All pets must be on a leash" signs everywhere. Was my reactive dog the nuisance? I don't think so, she was extremely well behaved and I made it a point to stay far away from that guy and his dog.
If this dog had run up to mine he would have gotten a face full. Probably would have been a face full of my shoe at that point, but I wouldn't blame my dog for lunging at him. I would have picked her up (if I wasn't panic stricken) to keep her from biting him, but like I said, in the heat of the moment I may not have been able to get her out of harm's way. I would do the exact same for my non-reactive dog though. I don't expect my dogs to get along with all dogs. You (general you) aren't expected to get along with all people so what's the difference?
Oh, and BTW, my reactive (DA if you will) dog has plenty of dog playmates that she likes and lives in a house with two other dogs.
I ALWAYS keep an eye out for other dogs. Not because my dog is a danger or a public nuisance, but because I don't trust owners. Perfect example. I walk at the local park every day. I take my reactive (DA if pushed too far) dog to walk/train. I spotted a guy with a young rottie mix, he had the dog on a leash but was doing some pretty dumb things. He let the dog chase the geese into the water and then at one point he let the dog off leash. He was in a public park, there are "All pets must be on a leash" signs everywhere. Was my reactive dog the nuisance? I don't think so, she was extremely well behaved and I made it a point to stay far away from that guy and his dog.
If this dog had run up to mine he would have gotten a face full. Probably would have been a face full of my shoe at that point, but I wouldn't blame my dog for lunging at him. I would have picked her up (if I wasn't panic stricken) to keep her from biting him, but like I said, in the heat of the moment I may not have been able to get her out of harm's way. I would do the exact same for my non-reactive dog though. I don't expect my dogs to get along with all dogs. You (general you) aren't expected to get along with all people so what's the difference?
Oh, and BTW, my reactive (DA if you will) dog has plenty of dog playmates that she likes and lives in a house with two other dogs.
Dog bite cases do NOT keep the courts happy. It's very difficult to get any sort of dog bite case taken seriously and brought to court. They're a nuisance. They're emotional and no attorney wants to take them. Dog bite clients will NOT be rational or understand that the law doesn't take their emotional damages into account.
Smkie, you've met Kharma. According to all the *experts* she shouldn't be able to function in public with strangers without being a raving bitch, and especially not in a crowded, strange place.
It's the same principle with a dog you know is DA. You work WITH your dog, learn their strengths and find the ways to let them grow and learn. There will always be some dogs who are happiest in a secluded environment that makes it easy for them to stay out of trouble, and then there will be some dogs who learn that the payoff for learning self-control and good judgment is living in a much larger world.
It takes work and vigilance on our parts, but it's incredibly rewarding.
Smkie, you've met Kharma. According to all the *experts* she shouldn't be able to function in public with strangers without being a raving bitch, and especially not in a crowded, strange place.
It's the same principle with a dog you know is DA. You work WITH your dog, learn their strengths and find the ways to let them grow and learn. There will always be some dogs who are happiest in a secluded environment that makes it easy for them to stay out of trouble, and then there will be some dogs who learn that the payoff for learning self-control and good judgment is living in a much larger world.
It takes work and vigilance on our parts, but it's incredibly rewarding.
I understand your desire not to live with it. I would rather not, but an element of DA, plus tenacity and ferocity are present in my chosen breed. So I must risk it 
But I am still puzzled why you think I need to live in fort knox? My dogs are not any more likely to run out my door and attack. Some dogs might, but mine are not that interested in fighting. Now if your dog got loose and ran into my 'back yard' then there might be issues. My neigbours have dog's chained up close to my property line. I can walk my dogs around my property and am no more worried about them 'attacking' than any other JRTs I have owned previously. As I will say again there are degrees of DA. I am very careful at trials, and manage all situations as best I can. Not all DA/DR dogs are out kill all other dogs. Snip doesn't like other male dogs in his house. He will seriously fight them in the house if he gets the chance. Out in public he likes every dog we have met so far.
I personally don't fear ppl who knowingly have DA dogs. I fear those who think they have 'good' dogs who can never be DA. Dekka has been jumped and pinned by those kind. Any dog can react. And the people who assume it can never happen (not saying any chaz members...just the general public) who let their dogs run loose, or on flexi leads are the ones that scare me. The ppl who own DA IME tend to train, manage and be more aware of their dogs than those who assume their dogs are good with all other dogs.
So far none of my dogs have been jumped by DA dogs.. only 'good dogs' with puzzled owners.
But I am still puzzled why you think I need to live in fort knox? My dogs are not any more likely to run out my door and attack. Some dogs might, but mine are not that interested in fighting. Now if your dog got loose and ran into my 'back yard' then there might be issues. My neigbours have dog's chained up close to my property line. I can walk my dogs around my property and am no more worried about them 'attacking' than any other JRTs I have owned previously. As I will say again there are degrees of DA. I am very careful at trials, and manage all situations as best I can. Not all DA/DR dogs are out kill all other dogs. Snip doesn't like other male dogs in his house. He will seriously fight them in the house if he gets the chance. Out in public he likes every dog we have met so far.
I personally don't fear ppl who knowingly have DA dogs. I fear those who think they have 'good' dogs who can never be DA. Dekka has been jumped and pinned by those kind. Any dog can react. And the people who assume it can never happen (not saying any chaz members...just the general public) who let their dogs run loose, or on flexi leads are the ones that scare me. The ppl who own DA IME tend to train, manage and be more aware of their dogs than those who assume their dogs are good with all other dogs.
So far none of my dogs have been jumped by DA dogs.. only 'good dogs' with puzzled owners.
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One of the most DA dogs I know also has the most INSANE obedience that I've ever seen. He is a dog who will kill another dog, but will wag his tail until the dog is within range to kill. But at the same time, he has such awesome obedience that he can be offleash healing within inches from another dog without reacting.
DA dog owners NEED to be more vigilant and take dog ownership as seriously as possible. And frankly, as a former DA dog owner, it IS a burden. But just because it's a burden doesn't mean that you, the owner, won't do what's necessary for the dog you love.
DA dog owners NEED to be more vigilant and take dog ownership as seriously as possible. And frankly, as a former DA dog owner, it IS a burden. But just because it's a burden doesn't mean that you, the owner, won't do what's necessary for the dog you love.
I gotta agree with the "wow". *shaking head*
No, dog-aggression cannot be trained out of a dog, and nor can it be socialized out if the dog's genes decree that dog will be dog-aggressive. I believe you can do a lot to decrease the dog-aggression through socialization and lots of good experiences with other dogs, but prevent it? Not so much.
Management is key. But training a dog to listen to you and take their cues from you even in stressful, arousing situations makes life a whole lot easier.
It seems a shame to write off so many dogs as monsters.
No, dog-aggression cannot be trained out of a dog, and nor can it be socialized out if the dog's genes decree that dog will be dog-aggressive. I believe you can do a lot to decrease the dog-aggression through socialization and lots of good experiences with other dogs, but prevent it? Not so much.
Management is key. But training a dog to listen to you and take their cues from you even in stressful, arousing situations makes life a whole lot easier.
It seems a shame to write off so many dogs as monsters.
I have never owned a DA dog but I really don't think it would be as difficult as some of you make it seem. Unless he had door darting problems I don't see the problem, he won't meet other dogs and I'll train him to look at me at the sight of another dog. He would not be a danger to the neighbor because he would never be in the neighbors yard. If I go somewhere to socialize him to other people I'll bring a muzzle in case a dog shows up while I am there. My dog, Max, was never off leash in a public place so I guess I don't see it as missing out on anything. I mean it might be sad sometimes that you can't have dog play groups or go to obedience classes with other dogs but oh well. BUT since I have not actually owned a DA dog, I should keep my mouth shut.
*grin* erin, for never having owned a DA dog, you sure have a pretty good clue about them.
though my dogs do great in obedience classes- it's a controlled, supervised environment where everybody is actively engaged in working with their dogs. group classes have been a great opportunity for me to work with my dog-aggressive dogs on self-control and attention to me even when there ZOMG other dogs around.
though my dogs do great in obedience classes- it's a controlled, supervised environment where everybody is actively engaged in working with their dogs. group classes have been a great opportunity for me to work with my dog-aggressive dogs on self-control and attention to me even when there ZOMG other dogs around.
... Um, no. Not true. Maybe with some dogs, but not all DA dogs will turn and attack their friends because they can't get to the idiot dog running off-leash. For your dog's sake, I hope she never twitches a lip, because you don't seem to be prepared to deal with the possibilities of what you've brought home. I am frankly disgusted that you would put a Pit Bull (or even pit mix) down for dog aggression. Makes me want to go right out and buy a retriever and kick it when it so much as looks at a ball.
Not all pitties are evil bad breeding of agressive dogs as my old boss said a high dog to a high dog, is what creates truly aggressive dogs. EVen then early socialization and proper training as Pepper is put through each and every day will insure the best chance of her being a good canine citizen. WHich is our goal. You can wow or shake your head, and you have every right to your opinion. I think my nieghbors have a right to know that on the acre next to them is a dog that is not going to harm their dog if a fence is jumped or a storm blows it down or the the gas man forgets to close the gate. I think my fellow neighbors have a right to a fair amount of safety as a given. I will state again, not all dogs of a breed are DA. I don't think that DA dogs should be marched out of their houses and destroyed. I do think their owners are taking a risk for those around them, a risk they are willing to take, but maybe the other side of the fence is not. I am just as intitaled to my opinion based on my experiences. I have had many a dog twitch a lip but fortuantly my dogs have always been well trained and undertsand how to call down, to walk off, to leave it, to stop on command and i will accept nothing less for i am a responsible canine gaurdian and thier safety is first and foremost of importance to me. If a person thinks that a gate or a door is enough of a barrier, and that their dog cannot be trained out of it's aggressive behavior, then they have a problem child. THat is an uneasy situation.
Ares is DA. A friend of mine who breeds corgis described Ares as "old school corgi - the type who will take it to the mat or die trying". Ares isn't going to go looking for a fight. Ares wants to be left alone. If another dog gets in his space, he'll threaten with posturing, growling, lip curls, etc. If the other dog doesn't back down, he'll bite. We've had vet bills because of it.
Tyr gets growly with other males ~ except Ares, I don't doubt that he would bite if another male got too close. Tyr isn't interested in going to look for a fight.
Often, my dogs are manageable together. I do need to be careful about having Nyx and Ares out together, because neither is willing to back down - Ares aggressively, Nyx in overbearing play. I do some crate and yard rotations, which is why I would be reluctant ot bring in another dog right now - Da or not. If a new dog couldn't get along with either of the established pairs, I would have to manage a third rotation, and that would limit my time with them too much.
My dogs are trained, Ares has a CDX. Ares, who is DA is perfectly capable of going to a dog show and competing off leash. Tyr is perfectly able to go to training classes where there are other dogs and perform off leash.
There is no need to secure them as tightly as "Fort Knox". I don't allow them to simply run loose, and when I have them out in public, I remain hyper aware of my surroundings in case someone else's dog is getting too close.
I have no doubt there will be aggressive dogs in my future. The traits I look for for their sport training tend to cause them to be prone to being DA. I very much want another dog that can work like Ares, and I fully believe that all the qualities that made him such a wonderful worker are also the qualities that make him aggressive.
Tyr gets growly with other males ~ except Ares, I don't doubt that he would bite if another male got too close. Tyr isn't interested in going to look for a fight.
Often, my dogs are manageable together. I do need to be careful about having Nyx and Ares out together, because neither is willing to back down - Ares aggressively, Nyx in overbearing play. I do some crate and yard rotations, which is why I would be reluctant ot bring in another dog right now - Da or not. If a new dog couldn't get along with either of the established pairs, I would have to manage a third rotation, and that would limit my time with them too much.
My dogs are trained, Ares has a CDX. Ares, who is DA is perfectly capable of going to a dog show and competing off leash. Tyr is perfectly able to go to training classes where there are other dogs and perform off leash.
There is no need to secure them as tightly as "Fort Knox". I don't allow them to simply run loose, and when I have them out in public, I remain hyper aware of my surroundings in case someone else's dog is getting too close.
I have no doubt there will be aggressive dogs in my future. The traits I look for for their sport training tend to cause them to be prone to being DA. I very much want another dog that can work like Ares, and I fully believe that all the qualities that made him such a wonderful worker are also the qualities that make him aggressive.
I hope you realize that you have a dog at your hands that have a huge possibility of being DA. She might turn at a certain age or a certain event might happen with another dog that brings out her DA. I am not saying that all pit bulls will be DA, but it is in their genetics. Maybe Pepper would never show it, but you should still keep in mind that DA is a huge possibility with her.
But MY point has been..how do you KNOW your dog will never.... ?
All the dogs who have jumped mine so far have been dogs who the owners (we are talking agility/obed owners for the most part) we sooo sure their dogs would never... One even told me as their dog was coming up to Kaiden (who does like other dogs) that their was friendly. Well I guess her dog had never met another intact male before as he was NOT friendly.
Dog is a dog is a dog. All dogs have the capability to turn on another dog. And often it does not show up till the dog is older. Its not just a matter of socialization and training. Trust me on this one.
Lynn-Tally was more than your typical DR/DA dog. No amount of training could have helped her. This has been more about the typical reactive dogs.
All the dogs who have jumped mine so far have been dogs who the owners (we are talking agility/obed owners for the most part) we sooo sure their dogs would never... One even told me as their dog was coming up to Kaiden (who does like other dogs) that their was friendly. Well I guess her dog had never met another intact male before as he was NOT friendly.
Dog is a dog is a dog. All dogs have the capability to turn on another dog. And often it does not show up till the dog is older. Its not just a matter of socialization and training. Trust me on this one.
Lynn-Tally was more than your typical DR/DA dog. No amount of training could have helped her. This has been more about the typical reactive dogs.