Why get a guardian breed?

[Gempress]

*disclaimer* This was not meant as an attack on anyone. I also do NOT intend for this thread to be a flame war. I'm just curious, and want some intelligent feedback.

There have been a lot of posts lately about guardian breeds. I've noticed that a common theme seems to be a desire to curb the breed's natural protective tendencies through extensive training/socialization.

That disturbs me greatly. Guardian breeds were bred to be that way for a reason. There are people out there who greatly desire these traits, and I believe they should be nurtured. These traits are written into the breed standard for a reason. The ideal breed specimen SHOULD have this type of temperament. The changing and lessening of temperament traits is just as bad for the breed integrity as the changing and lessening of physical traits.

I can't remember where I saw this quote from a dobie breeder, but it's very fitting. "If you have a doberman who sleep all day, loves everyone and never barks, then you have a great pet. But you have a bad doberman."

I don't believe in getting a dog with the condition of "I don't like XXX trait, so I will train it not to be that way." That is not fair to the dog. They are wired to be that way, and they are happiest when fulfilling their purpose. If you want a dog, you should like the ENTIRE dog. That is why there are hundreds of different breeds to choose from.

Besides, what if you can't train Fido to "not be that way"? What do you then? Shelters are full of dogs that could not be trained out of their natural tendencies: BCs who are "too active", terriers who dig and scenthounds who howl and bark. It's not considered responsible dog ownership to get a dog not suited to your situation. So why is it acceptable to get a hard guardian breed and try to train it to "play nice" with everyone?

Thoughts, anyone?

 

[doberkim]

i absolutely agree - i despise people attempting to make a breed what it is not meant to be. if i want a dobe, with longer hair, and a tail, and less protection, and more acceptance of everything adn anything - why dont i just get a lab?


not everyone is fit to own every single breed. not everyone has the right lifestyle, the right training capabilities, and the right home for every breed. there are many breeds i would NEVER like to own, and i know this.

responsible ownership starts and researching a breed and knowing what you are capable of, and what fits your lifestyle best. most dogs are sent to shelters because they dont fit the owners lifestyle - if they had researched, they would have understood breed tendencies.

i think its unrealistic and unfair to expect a guardian breed to be a big fluff of lovey fur that wants to kiss everyone and go in public and just hang out, just as unfair and unrealistic to expect a pointer to guard your land. while examples of these things may exist, they are exceptions to the rule, and i wouldnt plan on other dogs being like that!

stay true to the breed.

 

[mojozen]

Gempress - I agree with you whole heartedly. It seems like a lot of people want a generic dog that loves everyone, the only difference between the various dogs is that they look different. This is reminding me of the book I am reading right now...

 

[kazkirk]

I picked a guardian breed BECAUSE of their qualities, not in despite of them. Anyone fighting instinct is asking for failure. You have to work with intinct, not against it.

My cc can guard my house anyday!

 

[joce]

the diffrence with the dobe is if you can't take your dobe out in public you also have a bad doberman. I don;t know that much about other breeds but I personally would not get a dog I could not take out in public. thats why I got a dobe. they know when to turn it on and off. I don;t think I ruined his instincts by socializing him. He still knows his stuff

 

[dirtmcgirt]

Great Post.. I agree completely... People really need to take into consideration what breed they are buying and for what reasons.

 

[anna84]

thats a really good post. people really do need to consider their lifestyles and what breeds can and cannot fit. I do think that someone needs to have any dog trained and socialized to the point that yes they can occasionally go out in public and be fine. But i don't think that a anatolian or a fila is a bad dog because they don't tolerate a stranger getting in there face and petting them. There just being true to their heritage. I love the bigger protective breeds but i awknowledge that i'm way to social to ever own one of them

 

[RD]

I agree with you about wanting to get a dog and make it something completely different.

However I do not agree with your implication that socializing and training destroys the instinct of a guardian breed. I think it is important to consider the fact that all dogs, regardless of breed, need to be socialized and taught when it is appropriate to do certain things. A 180lb Fila that indiscriminately attacks everybody that comes close because it was never socialized or trained to accept normal situations is just unsafe. Do you consider a dog that does not attack indiscriminately to be an inferior guardian?

I want a guardian for a reason, and if I didn't want those characteristics I would get a different breed. These dogs were bred to have good judgment and be able to put it to use. But without training and socializing, a guardian breed will most likely think that it's appropriate to attack anyone simply for existing, and the owner will have no control over the dog when it decides to do so. Disaster!

Honestly, that is like saying it's fine to get a Border Collie and letting it herd everything in sight, but teaching it that it can only herd the sheep and that theres no need to herd your children is destroying its instinct. What good is a working dog if it's allowed to run rampant?

While it is ridiculous to get a Fila and expect to be able to train it to like strangers, or to get a BC and train it to be a couch potatoe, it's equally ridiculous to me to NEVER take control and teach a dog how to act in certain situations because it might be "messing with its instincts".

Can I ask why you feel that way, Gem? Have you ever seen an adult Fila (since we are using them as an example, lol) that was poorly socialized? I've seen the result of never teaching a dog like that how to tell the difference between a threat and a normal, everyday situation. It usually ends in the beloved, devoted guardian being euthanized because it was just trying to do its job, but had no idea of the difference between a relative shaking hands with its handler and an intruder putting a gun to its handler's head. I'll stick with socialization and training, thanks.

 

[motherofmany]

I do think it is important to maintain breed characteristics as I believe type is as much about behavioral traits as it is about structure.... howevah All dogs need to be properly socialized to attain their maximum potential, and all dogs need to be properly trained (even if- or especially if!-their early socialization was less than ideal) to make them "fit" into their "role."

But the role must be one based upon the breed function! Not just "the dog looks cool and I want one" and then attempt to make say, a Rottie into a "lapdog" type companion. I don't think it is smart for people in certain situations to buy or adopt guardian breeds because even with proper training and socialization, they will not fit the (improper for the breed) role that the owner has in mind. Square pegs, round holes=guardian breeds for families with many active children and little time for intensive training, just as one example since this thread is about guardian breeds.

It all comes down to knowing the breed and here goes my personal rant. Research, research, research.... find a reputable breeder.... get to know the good, the bad and the ugly.... understand the basic breed temperament and traits.... THEN get the dog. Impulse purchase (or even rescue!) is bad for dogs.

 

[makenzie71]

A lot of pets make good guard dogs, but not a lot of guard dogs make good pets.

I'm seldom impressed, and often saddened, with people who try to make pets out of designed guard dogs..some succeed, most end up sheltered or put down.

 

[Renee750il]

Gempress, you and RD are both on the money. Too many people equate socializing with changing the dog's character, and that's not the point. The reason (using Filas as the example) we socialize is so that they have a broad base of experiences to base their decisions upon; it allows them to learn what is normal so that they can make an intelligent decision when the need arises. (It also allows you to take them to the vet without it being a drama in three acts, lol.)

Guardian breeds tend to be hyper-intelligent. They have to be. And, of course, it always helps to be at least as bright as your dog - or to be able to convince your dog that you are

 

[casablanca1]

There have been a lot of posts lately about guardian breeds. I've noticed that a common theme seems to be a desire to curb the breed's natural protective tendencies through extensive training/socialization.
That disturbs me greatly. Guardian breeds were bred to be that way for a reason. There are people out there who greatly desire these traits, and I believe they should be nurtured. These traits are written into the breed standard for a reason. The ideal breed specimen SHOULD have this type of temperament. The changing and lessening of temperament traits is just as bad for the breed integrity as the changing and lessening of physical traits.
.. why is it acceptable to get a hard guardian breed and try to train it to "play nice" with everyone? Thoughts, anyone?

I'm not sure I agree with everything you say, but I do think that there's much too much interest in acquiring very "serious" breeds by people who are not serious at all, but only attracted to superficial traits - the size, the 'impressive' factor, the macho thing. There are enough different breeds that if you want a big-bodied, "statuesque" dog, you should be able to find one that's more manageable than a Fila, to use that example. I'm a little disturbed by the attitudes of many guardian breed owners, though. I remember when the Border Collies were being brought into the AKC and there was an upswing in interest - Border Collie people were incredibly discouraging to anyone expressing interest in getting a puppy. You'd have to twist their arms to get a positive word about their breed out of them. People who own guardian breeds are simultaneously effusive - their dogs are great guardians, great with the family, great protection, loving, warm, fantastic, etc., etc. - and defensive - you can't say our dogs are more dangerous than other dogs, Chihuhuas kill people too. It seems ultimately self-destructive to me, in that it encourages people who really shouldn't buy these dogs to get one.

 

[aelizilly]

By no means did I end up with a guardian breed, nor was that a preference of mine. I fell in love with the traits of Beagles from my research and so desired to find one. I admit, I didn't find the most repitable breeder, but I did fall in love with Bailey the moment I met him, and mainly wanted to "rescue" him into a better environment.

I remember when I first brought him home and everyone was telling me "why did you get a Beagle, don't you know all they do is DIG and BARK." It drove me NUTS, but I finally got past it and learned to ignore them. And would you believe it, he never really barks or bays at all, and digs on occassion, but is soooo responsive to me and my commands. I am so happy I chose a Beagle and would choose another one in a NY minute.

 

[Gempress]

I agree with you about wanting to get a dog and make it something completely different.

However I do not agree with your implication that socializing and training destroys the instinct of a guardian breed.

Sorry RD, I guess I should have been more specific. I'm certainly not against socialization or training. Quite the contrary; those are extremely important to any breed of dog. I'm saying that it's wrong to expect those things to diminish guarding instinct. Refine it and make it less indiscriminate, yes. But not eliminate it.

You can teach border collies that nipping at the heels of children is not acceptable. But it will not necessarily stop the "eye stalk", the chasing or the circling. And does that mean that aforementioned border collie will never, ever try to herd children again? Regardless of the circumstance? And border collies were also bred to work closely in sync with people and follow their owners' directions. Many guardian breeds, like Great Pyrs, were bred to think independently.

And I also think of it this way. So many people want a dog with a "softer" temperament. How long before breeders try to breed for that quality? That exact problem is affecting some popular guardian breeds like German Shepherds or dobermans. While many of them are great pets and naturally protective, it's getting harder and harder to find good, full-working dogs (for Schutzhund, for example). From what I understand, that is part of the reason why so many fila groups are trying to avoid AKC recognition.

I've mentioned before that we've decided to get a fila when we get a country house next year. I personally would rather get a fila with a hard temperament than one with a very soft temperament. If anything, it would show my support of breeders who are trying to keep that natural drive and protective instinct.

 

[Mordy]

I fully agree that it is wrong to pick a dog due to some (mostly exterior) features that seem attractive and then trying to eliminate the "undesirable" part(s) of the temperament to fit a person's individual desires.

Unfortunately exactly that is going on with all the "show line" breeding of dogs that otherwise have a working purpose, which I don't agree with either.

 

[zoe08]

By no means did I end up with a guardian breed, nor was that a preference of mine. I fell in love with the traits of Beagles from my research and so desired to find one. I admit, I didn't find the most repitable breeder, but I did fall in love with Bailey the moment I met him, and mainly wanted to "rescue" him into a better environment.

That was about exactly what happened to me!! I choose the beagle cuz it seemed to fit what I was looking for at the time. A medium sized dog, at the time I did not want much grooming needs, etc. And it has worked out well.

My beagle does like to dig though...about the only downside. I dont have too much problem with the barking usually. She ususally only does when other dogs are barking or she sees another dog or people outside and she wants to go see them.

 

[JennSLK]

I wanted a BIG dog, but I live in a townhouse. Not fair to them. So I wanted a smaller dog who had lots of energy and I could rough house with and not brake. So I chose the beagle.

Emma does dig occasionally, and will bark if another dog is barking. But I knew the bad traits of the breed and was prepared to live with a beagle even if she had every single bad trait.

Now we are moving and I am getting my big dog

 

[oriondw]

That was about exactly what happened to me!! I choose the beagle cuz it seemed to fit what I was looking for at the time. A medium sized dog, at the time I did not want much grooming needs, etc. And it has worked out well.

My beagle does like to dig though...about the only downside. I dont have too much problem with the barking usually. She ususally only does when other dogs are barking or she sees another dog or people outside and she wants to go see them.

How do beagles relate to discussion of Guardian Breeds?



Anyways, comparing GSD/Dobe to a Fila is wrong, simply different leagues of protections.

Besides, GSD's were never meant to be guard dogs... they are sheep dogs... as if the name didnt say it.

 

[JennSLK]

How do beagles relate to discussion of Guardian Breeds?

The discusion os about people getting a dog then "training out" a intricle part of the breed.

 

[zoe08]

How do beagles relate to discussion of Guardian Breeds?

And talking about getting a breed that fits your needs. Not just getting a dog cuz the way it looks or something.

A lot of people get dogs for what they think is a "kool" factor. Like a lot of people want pits because of their rep, but it really isnt the kind of dog that fits their lifestyle. Same with guardian breeds. You may think they sound good, but have you done the research and are you positive it is something you can handle and are willing to take on and you can provide the life that dog needs? Especially with such a big dog. I know a lot of people get big dogs that really do not have the room for them, I choose a beagle because she fit my lifestyle. Someday I would like a big dog, but at this time I do not have the room. I want my dog to have a comfortable life with the room that it needs.