White House dog PWNs rude reporter

[ACooper]

Here I go again with my delusions of sound dogs, but folks approach my dogs wrongly all the time. Like the little kids who do the arm-extended, flat-palm, fingers-spread attempt to pat on the head, and who wont stop and let the dog sniff their hand, but jerk it back when the dog tilts their head up to see what's descending on them. I have to tell the kids "cup your hands like this, like you're giving the dog a gift and let them sniff your hands." Anyway, point being that if any of mine thought it was okay to snap over a rude greeting from a human, they'd be facing a dirt nap. Use of the teeth is the absolute last resort when you have no other options. As ever, JMO.

I agree Baha. I love dogs just as much as the next person here on this board........but I am NOT going to kid myself and blame the whole affair on that reporter's lack of knowledge, or the dog walkers obvious lack of knowledge (and common sense).

Orson is not as stable as he could be, and we just had some of Kevin's family over here today and Kevin's nephew bent down and hugged Orson's neck........I saw immediately that Orson was uncomfortable with it, his eyes bulged and he looked over to me with a "help me" look in his eyes. He didn't growl, didn't try to pull away, and most certainly didn't attempt to snap at the kid. I then intervened and had him let Orson go and sent Orson out of the room away from the crowd, problem solved.

He could have easily snapped at the boy (who is 16 by the way) because the boy did NOT approach him correctly, did NOT let Orson get comfortable with him first and really who would be blaming the boy? Not the law and not even ME. If Orson can't control himself long enough to tolerate a moment of unwanted attention then there are serious issues that need to be addressed.

And yes, I know it's in a dobermans nature to be wary of strangers and aloof with them...........but biting someone over a little unwanted attention is NOT AN OPTION IMO.

 

[Bahamutt99]

Thanks for the vote of confidence. And I agree that even in a tough guardian breed, if they have to resort to inappropriate biting, there's something amiss. Orson's response in that situation was appropriate, IMO. Even a growl would've been permissible, considering the circumstances. You know, I could think long and hard, and I wouldn't even know how to make my dogs bite if I wanted to. Mouth in play, sure. But bite out of anger or fear? I wouldn't begin to venture a guess as to just how far I'd have to push them to get that result.

 

[sparks19]

I don't know...

I mean I don't agree with dogs biting people but this dogs life is NOT compareable to our dogs. I think Lilavatis post said it best. Barney is just not suited to white house life.

None of our dogs have to live a life as stressful as living in the whitehouse... especially now when they are preparing to move and everything else.

Plus most of the people who are saying the dog should be more sound has medium/large dogs. I may be way off base here but I think an unacceptable approach might be a little less threatening to a large dog than to a very small dog. I know it's threatening to all of them but we seem MUCH larger and more imposing to a small dog than to a large dog.

I dont' know... I have seen posts on here from people who's dogs snapped at someone when it was not the last option and the reaction certainly was nothing like what I see in this thread.

I just don't think anyone here (myself included) really understands how stressful life for this dog really is and he will be much better off once they are out of there and he can just live a quiet home life (hopefully) like OUR dogs do.

the dog was showing obvious signs of discomfort... the reporter DID pet Barney earlier in the video and while barney was uncomfortable he didn't snap... he just gave off the usual signals that he wanted out. The dog walker did nothing to help him and people continued to swarm around. How much must the dog take before it is a last resort? I can certainly tell that he felt threatened and uncomfortable and wanted out.

 

[ACooper]

I don't know...

I mean I don't agree with dogs biting people but this dogs life is NOT compareable to our dogs. I think Lilavatis post said it best. Barney is just not suited to white house life.

None of our dogs have to live a life as stressful as living in the whitehouse... especially now when they are preparing to move and everything else.

Plus most of the people who are saying the dog should be more sound has medium/large dogs. I may be way off base here but I think an unacceptable approach might be a little less threatening to a large dog than to a very small dog. I know it's threatening to all of them but we seem MUCH larger and more imposing to a small dog than to a large dog.

I dont' know... I have seen posts on here from people who's dogs snapped at someone when it was not the last option and the reaction certainly was nothing like what I see in this thread.

I just don't think anyone here (myself included) really understands how stressful life for this dog really is and he will be much better off once they are out of there and he can just live a quiet home life (hopefully) like OUR dogs do.

the dog was showing obvious signs of discomfort... the reporter DID pet Barney earlier in the video and while barney was uncomfortable he didn't snap... he just gave off the usual signals that he wanted out. The dog walker did nothing to help him and people continued to swarm around. How much must the dog take before it is a last resort? I can certainly tell that he felt threatened and uncomfortable and wanted out.

I can see your point somewhat about the stressful life that Barney probably leads sparks, and THAT is where the blame is placed on the people who care for him IMO. I know Orson would never prefer that type of life.

But what I don't understand is your point about most of us having medium/large breed dogs. You think it's acceptable for small breeds to be unstable and snappy? I don't. I don't care how large or small the dog.........biting is unacceptable unless it's a REAL threat/self defense, not just "don't touch me 'cause I don't like you"

 

[sparks19]

I can see your point somewhat about the stressful life that Barney probably leads sparks, and THAT is where the blame is placed on the people who care for him IMO. I know Orson would never prefer that type of life.

But what I don't understand is your point about most of us having medium/large breed dogs. You think it's acceptable for small breeds to be unstable and snappy? I don't. I don't care how large or small the dog.........biting is unacceptable unless it's a REAL threat/self defense, not just "don't touch me 'cause I don't like you"

No I don't think it's appropriate for small breeds to be snappy. reading my post again that is how I made it sound though lol OOPS.

What I meant was that I think a large noisy crowd looming over a small dog is more frightening for a small dog than it would be for your average large dog (although some large dogs are timid and this would be just as frightening for them if not more so). So if a small dog is already upset... a big crowd around him and reaching down to him would probably seem more frightening as we would appear much larger to him than it would to, say, Belle. I also think that sometimes these distress signals in smaller dogs are over looked more than in a larger breed.

That still doesn't sound right but that's the best that my brain will allow for now lol

 

[PWCorgi]

I don't know...

I mean I don't agree with dogs biting people but this dogs life is NOT compareable to our dogs. I think Lilavatis post said it best. Barney is just not suited to white house life.

None of our dogs have to live a life as stressful as living in the whitehouse... especially now when they are preparing to move and everything else.

Plus most of the people who are saying the dog should be more sound has medium/large dogs. I may be way off base here but I think an unacceptable approach might be a little less threatening to a large dog than to a very small dog. I know it's threatening to all of them but we seem MUCH larger and more imposing to a small dog than to a large dog.

I dont' know... I have seen posts on here from people who's dogs snapped at someone when it was not the last option and the reaction certainly was nothing like what I see in this thread.

I just don't think anyone here (myself included) really understands how stressful life for this dog really is and he will be much better off once they are out of there and he can just live a quiet home life (hopefully) like OUR dogs do.

the dog was showing obvious signs of discomfort... the reporter DID pet Barney earlier in the video and while barney was uncomfortable he didn't snap... he just gave off the usual signals that he wanted out. The dog walker did nothing to help him and people continued to swarm around. How much must the dog take before it is a last resort? I can certainly tell that he felt threatened and uncomfortable and wanted out.

I agree that he isn't suited for White House life, and people should realize that and not put him in situations where he feels uncomfortable (such as this one) or not have him in the White House.

 

[sillysally]

I don't know...

I mean I don't agree with dogs biting people but this dogs life is NOT compareable to our dogs.

There is a very large dog show that we go to in Chicago every year. It is one of the few benched shows left in the country. It is over a couple of days and from what I understand those participating in the show just have to live with the fact that the general public in up their butts the entire time. These are all intact dogs, with some females in heat, many of breeds that are not into strange people or dogs, that are thrust into a completely chaotic situation. Very few people actually ask to pet the dogs, there are tons of kids in the dogs faces, people can barely groom their dogs without someone right there are the grooming table, and it is wall to wall people. In the middle of all this, the dog is supposed to show as well.

However, you don't see those dogs, who are in a very intense situation, biting people. There are many cases where the dog very clearly has had enough and does not want to be touched anymore. Those dogs will ignore the person completely, turn their face away, walk away, etc.

Yes, it may have been a sketchy situation for Barney, but the dog did have other options. Biting is not an acceptable go-to response IMHO.

 

[Lilavati]

Its not an acceptable response, and I wouldn't tolerate it, but I've known LOTS of smaller dogs that snapped when pushed. Note that Barney didn't lunge for the resporter in a full blown bite . .. he backed off snapping and snarling. That's a stressed out dog that has had enough, not a vicious one. I suspect, in a normal home, he'd be fine.

He's being handled very badly and put into situations he can't handle. If he was being handled properly, and he still did that . . . then I'd wonder about the wisdom of keeping this dog around at all . . . right now I just wonder at the wisdom of keeping him in the White House being walked by morons to meet reporters.

The difference between Barney and most of the Chaz dogs is that 1) he lives in a very odd situation, and 2) he's usually not handled by his family, and the people who do handle them are incompetant . . .Its one thing to say we'd put down a dog who acted like that (though, honestly, snapping like that I probably wouldn't, I think it can be worked with) but if it WAS a Chaz dog acting like that, the problem likely would be with the the dog, more than the handler and the situation . . .we don't put our dogs in situations like that if we can avoid it, and we put great effort into teaching them bite inhibition and tolerance. Barney, it seems, does not have those traits by nature, and no one has worked with him on the level he needs.

Its not that its an acceptable response, its that it is an understandable one. As for the comparison with show dogs. . . they are trained for such tolerance . . . Barney clearly has not been.

 

[pitbullpony]

Incompetent handler

is what Barney's problem here; maybe not for every incident of snappiness; but here he is being walked by an inattentive handler; who is probably also distracted (losing job soon?) and I doubt that the dog is supposed to be out in public with his leash handle creating a noose leash on him; the walker is holding the snap end; truly this dog leaves the White House without a collar? I doubt it.

Just get the poor dog the eff out of there; how soon does the family leave?

 

[TheGoldenRetriever]

folks approach my dogs wrongly all the time. Like the little kids who do the arm-extended, flat-palm, fingers-spread attempt to pat on the head, and who wont stop and let the dog sniff their hand, but jerk it back when the dog tilts their head up to see what's descending on them. I have to tell the kids "cup your hands like this, like you're giving the dog a gift and let them sniff your hands."

Orson is not as stable as he could be, and we just had some of Kevin's family over here today and Kevin's nephew bent down and hugged Orson's neck........I saw immediately that Orson was uncomfortable with it, his eyes bulged and he looked over to me with a "help me" look in his eyes. He didn't growl, didn't try to pull away, and most certainly didn't attempt to snap at the kid. I then intervened and had him let Orson go and sent Orson out of the room away from the crowd, problem solved.

OK, but there is a critical difference in the above two examples as opposed to what happened with Barney.

In a bad situation you didn't leave your dogs in a position to fend for themselves; they were not put in positions to have to make their own decisions. In each case you guys (being owners with a clue) quickly intervened after the FIRST mistake made by someone else.

What if you hadn't ... but instead backed up and allowed your dogs to be subjected to unwanted hugs or open-hand lunges a second time? Could be so sure the dog would not feel the need to defend itself, possibly even growling and snapping? Part of a dog remainimg stable is training, the other part is confidence in its handler.

Anyway, point being that if any of mine thought it was okay to snap over a rude greeting from a human they'd be facing a dirt nap.

OK, but you're talking about your own dogs in your private home. Along with what others have written about Barney's life in a fishbowl vs. Chazzers' dogs ... can you imagine the public relations nightmare of such a decision? :yikes:

Think of the headlines for "Barneygate" ....

"No Presidential pardon for Barney"
"Scottie snuffed for a simple snap"
"Finger nick leads Barney to death row"
"White House kills Barney over flesh-wound nip"
Reporter's finger heals, Barney dies"
"Barney killed for stupid human mistakes"

 

[ACooper]

Think of the headlines for "Barneygate" ....

"No Presidential pardon for Barney"
"Scottie snuffed for a simple snap"
"Finger nick leads Barney to death row"
"White House kills Barney over flesh-wound nip"
Reporter's finger heals, Barney dies"
"Barney killed for stupid human mistakes"

I agree that those (and many others) would be the headlines. But remember, Bush is from Texas and agrees with capital punishment as far as I know

All joking aside, the BIG FACT remains that this isn't the first incident, he has bitten visitors to the White House before. If this was YOUR dog or MY dog it would have already been deemed aggressive or even dangerous. Our homeowners insurance could be dropped, the post office could stop delivering our mail, and in all likelihood we might be ORDERED to put the dog down along with possible (likely) law suits, I would think the VERY least would be ordering the dog to be muzzled outside the home.

Is it the owners fault for not providing some training and even a behavior therapist? YES. Is it the owners fault for not making sure the dog doesn't have opportunity to do this? Yes.

That dog IS aggressive. There wasn't a reason I can think of that a dog needs to bite in that situation. PERIOD. And yes, if they can't keep it under control it does need to be kept away from people or put down, either/or would work but they better decide which one they can do and DO IT.

If it's a kid that Barney gets next time, then what will the headlines be?

 

[Renee750il]

The difference between Barney and most of the Chaz dogs is that 1) he lives in a very odd situation, and 2) he's usually not handled by his family, and the people who do handle them are incompetant . . .Its one thing to say we'd put down a dog who acted like that (though, honestly, snapping like that I probably wouldn't, I think it can be worked with) but if it WAS a Chaz dog acting like that, the problem likely would be with the the dog, more than the handler and the situation . . .we don't put our dogs in situations like that if we can avoid it, and we put great effort into teaching them bite inhibition and tolerance. Barney, it seems, does not have those traits by nature, and no one has worked with him on the level he needs.

You forgot a big difference . . . if Barney belonged to one of us, we'd be frantically PMing Dr2little for help - and she'd respond

 

[Bahamutt99]

I may be way off base here but I think an unacceptable approach might be a little less threatening to a large dog than to a very small dog.

What if the inappropriate approacher was smaller to match the smaller dog? Say, a child? If we level the playing field a bit, would it be unacceptable for Barney to have bitten? I'm sorry, but the stress factor really doesn't phase me. A dog of sound temperament will handle stress. I've had my dogs in situations where they were literally surrounded, and they were cool as cucumbers. A bad temperament is a bad temperament.

If you want to say that different people hold dogs up to different standards of behavior, I'll buy that. But that doesn't mean I agree with it at all. Just like I didn't agree with the defense of the Labrador who put 17 stitches in the kid's face in the news section thread (and that was a big dog even). But there will always be others who think a dog should get chance after chance to do better. I just don't.

 

[Bahamutt99]

OK, but you're talking about your own dogs in your private home. Along with what others have written about Barney's life in a fishbowl vs. Chazzers' dogs ... can you imagine the public relations nightmare of such a decision? :yikes:

In the fishbowl, there should be even more accountability. And yes, if he has bitten people on multiple occasions as has been suggested, he needs to be put down. I don't care where he lives, nor do I really care what media spin they put on it. If my dogs got more public exposure than they do -- and they get quite a bit -- would it be acceptable for me to allow them multiple bites, and just let them keep on biting? Heck, do you think they would even get a second chance?

 

[Renee750il]

In the fishbowl, there should be even more accountability.

Well, there you have it. Not a lot of accountability the last eight

Seriously, though, the first time Barney felt the need to bite someone, that should have been it for public appearances and putting him into stressful situations. Numerous film clips of the Terriers completely ignoring Shrub and just generally blowing him off, not even looking up when he spoke to them tell a lot about the relationship - or lack thereof - and how these dogs are probably ignored when not in the camera. NOT the home for a Terrier. Or any dog, really.

Their lack of concern over hiring a competent dog-walker only reinforces the impression of dogs-as-props. Even Paris Hilton faked being attached to her dog better.