Which option is fair?

Which is fair

  • Dog becomes an outdoor kennel dog 90% of the time

    Votes: 1 2.8%
  • Dog is rehomed to someone with no other pets/kids

    Votes: 14 38.9%
  • Dog is put to sleep

    Votes: 21 58.3%

  • Total voters
    36

BluButt

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#81
As I said, it is not impossible for a dog to exhibit both...obviously. We see plenty of that in my profession and amongst the dog owning public. But to be overly concerned or to assume a dog that exhibits inter dog (or other species) attacks, (prey, defensive, antagonistic, resource guarding and other types of aggression) will transfer this to humans is putting the cart before the horse or jumping to conclusions.
I don't see how it could be harmful to err on the side caution, especially with kids in the house. Knowing the dog's history and the nature in which he goes about it (no warning, just bites), I don't think it's worse to assume the potential is there, than it is to assume it's unlikely. What if the ONE time he does it is with one of the kids?

And since he has done it MULTIPLE times, we know supervision is lacking. If he has had the ability to do it 5 times with other animals, than I think it bares stating that supervision absolutely needs to be stepped up when the are kids around. My only point was not to assume this dog is 100% safe (as it was implied above). I don't think kids and dogs should be unsupervised anyway, but if the dog is likely to kill and injure other animals with no warning, I wouldn't be taking any chances. You know?

If the potential is there, I think that is plenty enough warning to be cautious about it. No?

(Otherwise I agree with everything that's been said. )
 
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Doberluv

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#82
I'll try to express myself better this time. (longer, but better, I hope) LOL. I seem to not be making my point clear enough. I don't ever think for one minute that the potential isn't there for any carnivore or predator to cause damage to humans. They have big teeth designed to crush bone and tear flesh off bones. They have powerful jaws that exert an incredible amount of pounds of pressure per square inch. Any dog that hasn't had all his teeth pulled can bite. So, there is always potential and it is always prudent to take steps to keep everyone safe.

I think all puppies and adult dogs should be raised in such a way that will tend to prevent problems later on. (idealistic, yes) Some dogs are born with lousy temperaments and while compensation can help, it's not always enough. But preventitive measures should be implimented to give the best chance. That way, the bases get covered. Skipping over vital conditioning type handling raises the odds to one degree or another, of the development of unfavorable issues. So yes, reasonable caution should be in everyone's repertoire when working around animals. I've had horses most of my life and I grew up, keeping that in mind with them too. I hope I didn't imply otherwise.

I would be extremely careful with children with any dog, especially one that had weak nerves. In fact, I probably wouldn't keep a dog that had bitten people because of being startled. I like to see a dog with good, solid nerves and good "bounce back." (being initially startled, but almost instantly over-coming it without freaking out) And that comes from a good, stable temperament and ample socialization before 3 or 4 months of age and continued throughout life. And of course, general good handling.

I merely wanted to clarify that dog to dog aggression and dog to human aggression are two very separate things to a dog. And if a dog displays dog to dog aggression (some types of aggression) they are not necessarily likely to suddenly begin displaying dog to human aggression. I, myself have had a few dog-dog aggressive dogs. (or at least in some cases, reactive) They would have never dreamed of being aggressive to humans...not a "grumpy" or jumpy bone in their bodies.

My Lab was even a little snarky with dogs coming onto the property, even if they set one toe into the property...sometimes even if they were close and we were walking, she'd go after them seriously. But humans...bring 'em on. Full body wag, extremely friendly to all humans. It was a party to her to have anyone come onto her territory. (with one exception where she acted like a real protection dog in the middle of the night when someone was trying to jimmy the door.) I never worried one iota with her where humans were concerned. She adored children and went everywhere with my son and his friends around our private neighborhood. They went fishing together. I never supervised her at all with the kids when they reached around 9 years of age. It never occurred to me back then. Only since the Internet, has the concept entered my head to always supervise children with dogs. LOL.

My last GSD...same thing. He was also wonderful, trustworthy and extremely tolerant with children and strangers coming around and also there was one exception such as the one with the Lab. He really loved having people come over...not your typical, aloof GSD. BUT he was dog aggressive until he got neutered. (he was neutered a little later than puppy hood) He broke his jaw biting into another GSD who ran from him. He was very territorial....against dogs. Never humans.

The kids knew how to behave with dogs and my dogs were always right by their side...best friends. These dogs had the best temperaments of any dog you'd ever see. And they were raised with the kids. That helps. Back then, it never occurred to me to go too much out of my way to condition the dogs to having kids or others take their stuff or handle their food. It just happened. Plus, with the GSD, they were in high chairs and would drop food on the floor. A natural way to convince the dog that little kids are the greatest. LOL. I do remember sitting down with puppies (this was like 30 years ago) and handling their food a little while they ate or giving them something special in their food. I don't remember doing any trading with toys or bones though. They still didn't develop any resource guarding with humans, just with dogs a little bit.

I just finished my last session with a dog that was growling at the owners when they wanted to sit on the couch. This shaggy, rather small Benji-type mutt didn't want to move and they retreated when they didn't have their gloves handy. Yes, you heard me. lol. Gloves. They donned a pair of leather gardening gloves when convenient and would put them on and forcibly remove the dog because you know....they were the "alpha." LOL. He would stiffin up and freeze and show a tooth with a warning snarl and sometimes they'd retreat and sometimes they'd use their gloves. Needless to say, it made the dog worse.

Their other dog was welcome by this snarky beast to get on the couch next to him. He seemed to have a better relationship with the other dog than he had with the humans. So, we worked on some things to get the humans to take control of all the things these dogs (we worked with both) loved or wanted, plus increased exercise and some obedience skills. (all positive reinforcement) And I showed them the on and off game, where the dog learns placement cues and is heavily rewarded for moving over or getting off or going to this other place that is pointed out. The snarky furniture guarding disappeared. I told them to continue to use their placement cues and reinforce and later, they don't have to reinforce every time, but sometimes to keep the dog working hard to comply.

The people also needed to stop speaking so sternly and loudly to the dog. This appeared to put him on the defensive. So they were sending very mixed messages. They'd speak sternly as if they thought they were in control. But then they weren't able to do anything to follow through with what they wanted...sometimes. You usually see, in this kind of situation, owners who are afraid to take charge at all, speak mildly to their dog and give into it every time.

Anyhow, there was a scenario where the dog was snarky to humans in one context and not at all to the other dog. The dog wasn't resource guarding anything else. He had learned that when they take a toy, it is thrown for him to retrieve, which he loved.... so taking things like that was reinforcing. But the couch....no.

Anyhow, you can see where a dog can have issues with humans but not dogs and visa versa. Sometimes both if the human and the dog has given them a reason. But normally, they don't transfer from one to the other. If the human threatens the dog, the dog has a problem with the human. If the dog threatens the dog, he has a problem with dogs. If both threaten the dog, he may wind up with a problem with both. But what causes one doesn't usually cause the other or transfer over to the other.

The Pit bull is a prime example of a dog bred for a certain type of job which makes him tend strongly toward dog aggression. But they have also been artificially selected for a gentle, sweet disposition toward humans. You can take the most dog aggressive Pit bull and not have a worry in your head about him flipping a switch which causes him to suddenly attack a human. Now, of course, there are those who also attack humans. But that's the case with any dog that hasn't been handled properly, socialized correctly or has been mistreated or any number of causes. It is not the fact that he is dog aggressive that he becomes human aggressive. Being dog aggressive, in other words, isn't the catalyst for his becoming human aggressive.
 

Romy

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#83
Just wanted to add something about resource guarding.

Dogs are NOT wired to share with each other; wanting our dogs to "share and share alike" is anthropomorphism. A dog that gets in another dog's food/treat is a very rude dog, and a brat. I have two dogs, and neither one bothers the other while they eat. The thought wouldn't even cross their minds, and that's the way I prefer it: dogs that ignore each other while they have high value items. I don't find it surprising or bad at all that dogs would guard from other dogs. In my house, I simply want them to leave each other alone while eating. The dog that will try to take food from another dog is the one with the real training issue IMO, not the dog that's guarding. If you don't have a rude dog getting in other dog's faces when they are eating (or enjoying some other high value thing), you won't have fights over resources! (A dog guarding with humans is a different story of course; while not unnatural, it is unsafe and needs to be fixed.)
I feel the same way about moderate resource guarding from other dogs. By moderate, I mean they don't lunge at other dogs who are standing nearby minding their own business.

We went far out of our way to condition our dogs to share with each other. It was a lot of work, but now Kaia and Strider can eat out of the same bowl at the same time, both doing a happy tail wag. The main reason for that is because we usually leave it down throughout the day and also have a toddler in the house. While they aren't guardy with her or other people, I was worried she might get caught in the middle of something. With dogs the size of borzois, that is a Bad Thing.

Charlie has a little bit of resource guarding with our other dogs. He can't eat the borzoi food so we put it up when he's inside. If for some reason he has food (like he finds a bread crust or something) he'll guard it from them when they try to take it. Cause the bozos are brats, lol. But, he will drop it for me. Or if they are playing and the bozos are being even bigger brats and harassing him. They team up to get his toy away, and then play keep away. :rolleyes: When they start doing that he makes a ton of noise, but can't snap because his mouth is full. So I put one borzoi up and the game is fun for him again, and he'll share his toy with no problem.
 

Doberluv

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#84
My dogs are really good together. I feel so fortunate that I have no problems between them. I've never had issues with the multiple dog house hold I've almost always had. Only occassionally, depending on mood, Chuli will tell one of the others to stay away...that she's really into her chewy bone and will hang out her "do not disturb" sign. There's never been any biting or going after....just a word or two. But that is good that they can communicate and respect each other.

Many times they do share and play with something together and they invite play which includes a toy. Jose` will bring a play sock that he's allowed to have to one of the other dogs or me and drop it, stepping back a step or two and then he'll start his warbling sounds and poke his nose at the sock and back up again. LOL...so cute. He loves playing tug and is asking for the other guy to pick up the other end. So, there's no guarding with that or most things. They all love to cuddle up together on the couch or on the dog bed in front of the fireplace...never a squabble about places to hang out....with an occassional "grrr" from Chuli if she fears getting stepped on as one clammors over or around her. Then once settled, all is well. They just seem to love each other a lot and seem to work things out fine between themselves.

I use to separate them into different rooms when eating, just as a precaution. But now I just put their bowls down in the kitchen. They all respect each other when the other is eating and there isn't any concern to any of them about a dog mooching in on their food. Toker use to be a little guardy with her food toward the other dogs (only), but we worked on that and she hardly ever gets worried anymore...once in a while, but she doesn't ever do anything more than make some noise. Then we brush up on the other dogs present = super duper stuff.
 

BluButt

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#85
I'll try to express myself better this time. (longer, but better, I hope) LOL. I seem to not be making my point clear enough.
You don't have to, I understand what you're saying. And I agree. :) However, as a mother, I would not assume this dog would NEVER take up resource guarding around people (especially children). I think that notion is fool hardy and asking for trouble.

The worrisome part to me, and the reason I would not take any chances, is because according to the narrative of this story, he shows NO warning signs. Just a momentarily stiff posture and then ATTACK - the animal is dead or injured. If he did that to a person, especially to a child, it could result in catastrophic injuries. I don't blame this family at all for being worried about the safety of their family.

I understand the message you're trying to convey, however, the waters are muddied when you're the parent of young children. I wouldn't take the chance that he is a "fine, safe pet". I certainly wouldn't rehome it, but I also wouldn't let my kid hang out with him near a food bowl either. I just wouldn't take the chance.
 

Doberluv

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#86
My son's dog who has been living with me for the past 4 or 5 years has gotten much better, but she use to get quite snarky with the other dogs if treats were being handed out or her food was set down and the other dogs were anywhere near, even if they weren't trying to take it, which they never have. She'd lunge, snarl and make a lot of noise. She never actually bit any of them, but made a big drama out of it...was quite afraid they might get her food. She's much, much more relaxed now after working with her and I can feed them in the same room now. BUT, I can tell you with 99.9% certainty that she would not go after any human that way...not even a child. She has always been completely comfortable and trusting of any human coming near her food. (Humans bringeth the food) She's 10 years old and has had little kids, medium sized kids, adults milling around near her food ongoingly through those years. I do feel confident that after 10 years of never showing one iota of concern about her stuff where humans are concerned, that she will not begin having an issue with resource guarding. Dogs.....that's another story.

I think she'll always have the tendency to worry a little bit about other dogs. In fact, when she was at a friend of my son's house yesterday, they told me she had a little bit of an issue with some toys that were out with the friend's dog. So, they put the toys away. But she wouldn't dream of guarding against a human with her toys. In fact, she never has a problem with the dogs in my household with toys. She is the gentlest, most tolerant, stable, loving dog and is as trustworthy as they come with people...any people. She hasn't, in 10 years had a resource guarding issue with humans and I don't expect her to start now.

Said theoretical dog seems to have weak nerves....how he seems to startle and immediately resorts to biting...doesn't seem to have great bounce back. I don't know the dog and haven't seen him so I can't know really, how he is. It's just what I'm perceiving over the Internet. But the owners are worried, so they should watch him like a hawk around kids or anyone.

But because he resource guards against other dogs and hasn't, in years resource guarded against children, I wouldn't worry too much that he was going to start resource guarding around children. If this all just started up and they haven't had the dog for long, I'd take extra precautions and like I said, those preventative measures...conditioning exercises would be a good thing to practice. They're a good thing to practice from time to time anyhow with any dog. It just happens naturally around my house because I love giving the dogs something special in their food once in a while. Sometimes I just go to them while they're eating and drop something in. Last night it was trout my son caught here, as he's been visiting me.

I'd be extra careful around the kids too, not because he's resource guarding dogs, but not the kids. (not in and of itself) But because he sounds like he's a nervous nelly and doesn't sound too stable. His tolerance level might fluctuate with other triggers and it sounds like the owners don't quite know all his triggers. It would be hard to know. With kids, being so small, yes it would be horrible if he bit them. I wouldn't keep an unstable dog with kids. But I'd keep Toker with kids even though she resource guards against other dogs.
 

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