Which option is fair?

[Crowsfeet]

I disagree. The problems have all been related to resource guarding, and no one has yet to explain why the dog wouldn't suddenly decide to exhibit that behavior with a person. Giving his propensity to strike with little to no warning, with such intensity, I would be worried that if/when he decides he needs to guard from a person, that it will be really, really ugly.

Claiming such a pet is totally safe given that the owners aren't ignorant to the problem doesn't account for the fact that he can never, ever be 100% trusted in case he does feel the need to guard from a human, and sometimes accidents happen. Especially with children.

I think the potential is there, which does not a "fine, safe pet" make. Manageable? Perhaps. But safe? Fine? I don't think so.

I could see this dog being 'safe' around adults, in a childless home. Human beings aren't prey animals, and typically dogs who have been bred to work with them for thousands of years don't see them as such. I do believe there can be blurred lines around children. Small animals(including small dogs) are definitely within the prey category, but looking at the history of some dog breeds, like terriers, depending on the actual dog* and the actual circumstances, it's possible that the dog absolutely does not have the capacity to attack an adult human being. I know and have met bully breeds or other working dog breeds who were absolutely fixated on chasing/catching prey animals, but who would never injure their human companions. I also thought this was an underlying theme in bully breed dogs.


**The actual dog, and the actual circumstances that aren't internet-based. Because you know, hypothetical dog is hypothetical.

 

[BluButt]

I know and have met bully breeds or other working dog breeds who were absolutely fixated on chasing/catching prey animals, but who would never injure their human companions.

Right, but if we look at the limited details of this case - where the dog is around puppies and kittens in close proximity to the dog's food and crate - I'm inclined to believe this was a "day to day living situation", in a frequently populated area of the house/building/facility. Not really the situation where a dog is seeking out and becoming fixated on "prey", no? If you're in the same room, or the same house as the dog, you'd be able to respond, right?

Is it customary for such high prey-drive dogs to exhibit such a lack of impulse control or any regard for their humans/handlers in a living situation that an intervention would be unsuccessful and result in repeated killings and injuries? For even the most accomplished backyard-squirrel-killer that seems unnaturally troublesome.

It makes me tend to believe that there are serious supervision issues, or the dog has seriously unpredictable and uncontrollable behavior issues. In the latter I think the dog has the potential to be seriously dangerous, in the former I think the issue is a lot less serious and of course manageable.

If all attempts are made to keep the dog separate from other animals, and yet this repeatedly happens and NO ONE is able to stop it, then a pattern of behavior seems to have been established, and I would be worried that the unpredictable nature of the dog might one day pop up with a person, and since it's so unpredictable and fierce, it has the potential to be really dangerous for the person trying to stop it, or for the target.

**The actual dog, and the actual circumstances that aren't internet-based. Because you know, hypothetical dog is hypothetical.

Yeah, the more I think about it, it's really pointless pontificating the nature of this dog when we really have NO information about the surrounding circumstances.

Were there people in the room? Did they try to stop it? How does the dog react to being called off an attack? Were the puppies/kitten trying to come near the food and the crate? Did the incidents happen in a place well known to the dog, or was the dog in unfamiliar territory? With unfamiliar people? Were the puppies permitted to annoy a dog that's known to guard? Why were people sneaking up on a dog from behind in its own yard? Were there people around when the dog acted territorial? What was the dog's reaction to people intervening while it's tied out? There's just so much missing information that I think this has the makings for a completely unstable dog, OR, completely idiotic owners. It's kinda hard to say which is which here.

 

[Adrienne]

Were there people in the room? Did they try to stop it? How does the dog react to being called off an attack? Were the puppies/kitten trying to come near the food and the crate? Did the incidents happen in a place well known to the dog, or was the dog in unfamiliar territory? With unfamiliar people? Were the puppies permitted to annoy a dog that's known to guard? Why were people sneaking up on a dog from behind in its own yard? Were there people around when the dog acted territorial? What was the dog's reaction to people intervening while it's tied out? There's just so much missing information that I think this has the makings for a completely unstable dog, OR, completely idiotic owners. It's kinda hard to say which is which here.

I will answer these to the best of my ability. As stated on the first page I must word this as hypothetical for liability issues. Since you haven't been around all that long BluButt you are most likely not familiar with where I spend my free time. Sorry to sound so coy but that's the way it has to be.

Dog was alone outside on all three episodes of biting humans. Dog bites and lets go with minimal damage done, although dog does break skin. Dog does not continue to aggress, just one bite and done. Dog was on it's own territory. I will stress again that Dog shows no issues towards humans in Dog's yard unless they come around the side of the house where Dog cannot see them until they are 'right there'.

Again with biting of animals dog bites one time and lets go. There is no escalation of attack, just one bite. Unfortunately dog is able to inflict great damage with one bite on small pup/kitten. After the bite dog goes undirected into crate as though shamed even before any human notices the bite happened. As the bites to animals are noiseless the hypothetical owners did not witness it happening. Dog was left eating dinner out instead of contained in all these instances. Generally Dog is contained in separate area when eating. When Dog has had a minor scuffle with housemate dog a firm no stops the scuffle.

 

[BluButt]

I don't know what to say. The details are so vague, and since you can't answer the questions surrounding the nature of all the animal attacks, anything anyone says is just going to be speculation.

I will say, however, that I do not agree with leaving a dog outside on a tie-out alone. I think tying dogs leads to behavioral problems in and of itself, and that I'm not at all surprised that while tied out alone the dog acted territorial and aggressive to an approaching stranger.

 

[corgipower]

Dog has killed a kitten and a puppy. Dog has injured three puppies. All situations involved a resource in the vicinity, food and Dog's crate. Dog does not kill wild animals. Dog does not go 'ballistic' on leash when Dog sees another dog but Dog will bite if another dog approaches. Dog is very calm about the bites, no growling, snarling, just a calm albeit stiff manner and then a bite.

No warnings given?
Has he previously been punished for warnings?

But couldn't a Yorkie be easily mistaken as prey? Especially if said dog hasn't been socialize enough to recognize a small dog from a critter.

Yes. But that doesn't at all make it OK for a dog to kill a Yorkie. It's the owner's job to have sufficient control over the situation. And prey drive, IME, is a lot easier to turn off than fear biting. Prey drive can be overridden with obedience.

Look at hunting dogs, protection dogs, herding dogs. They have huge amounts of prey drive. They have to in order to do their job. But their prey drive is under control. They can be called off, they can be stopped midway, they can be told to leave something alone. They also learn to discriminate situations where it's appropriate and inappropriate to turn on.

Sorry...killing multiple times, whether it's prey drive or not, unless it's part of their job or they're being specifically allowed and maybe even encouraged to engage in pest control, is inexcusable.

And the circumstances surrounding the killing. A dog loose in the backyard snatching a squirrel? Not so bad. A dog lunging across the street, on leash, to maul a yorkie, completely unprovoked? Big problem.

^I agree!^

Also, resource guarding is typically a fear based behavior. So the whole discussion of prey driven attacks becomes irrelevant.

Adrienne, the more info you give, the more I think this dog could be managed...with good solid training for the owners and a serious commitment on their part to do what's necessary.

 

[Renee750il]

Also, resource guarding is typically a fear based behavior. So the whole discussion of prey driven attacks becomes irrelevant.

Adrienne, the more info you give, the more I think this dog could be managed...with good solid training for the owners and a serious commitment on their part to do what's necessary.

Exactly what I've been thinking, CP.

 

[Doberluv]

Dog aggression is one thing. Human aggression is another thing. They don't typically "cross over." There are loads of dogs that show defensiveness ("agression") or prey "aggression" (I put that in quotes because it's not aggression at all) to other animals and there is no relevance to humans whatsoever. There are dogs who have a problem with humans, but not other animals. In other words, dog to dog/animal aggression and dog to human aggression are completely separate things. Prey drive is not aggression. Defensiveness and resource guarding are not the same as dominance aggression. Resource guarding against other dogs is not a catalyst for the behavior of resource guarding against humans. In other words, one does not cause the other. You may see a dog resrouce guarding against both but imo, that can just develop independently of each other.

This dog sounds like he has weak nerves and is acting out of one: defensiveness when startled....when someone suddenly appears from around a corner. This is understandable for a dog that has not been well socialized during the critical period and/or for a dog that has an unstable temperament. Plus, he's tied up, increasing his feeling of vulnerability. Dogs that are tied up for long periods of time are more apt to bite out of defensiveness. And two: he further demonstrates a fearful nip and retreat style when he nipped someone's hand while on a walk.

One thing I vehemently disagree with with the post about using an aversive collar, is that any kind of shock or punishment delivered to a dog with these kinds of issues is always contraindicated. To add more fear and stress to this dog would be a huge mistake. Pairing punishment with the environment, the triggers is NOT the way to treat his issues. Supressing behavior is never the way to go. It will come out later and usually much more explosively. The dog needs to have his mind changed about his triggers.

Some good desensatizing and counter conditioning exercises could help him....by pairing high value food with a practice person who appears from around a corner and with other "strangers." Of course, fencing the dog would be much better than tying him.

If the theoretical owners of this dog were willing to manage the dog properly and put some time into him, get a good behaviorist, he could improve. But, as I said before, extreme diligence should be used at all times and up to now, that doesn't look like they have been very careful.

Again, I wouldn't trust the dog around kids, even though he's fine now. He shows a nervousness and low tolerance for surprise and personally, I'd be worried to keep a dog like that around kids. If anything ever happened, well...they're just so small and right at the dog's level. And re-homing this dog would be irresponsible and dangerous...not fair to other people or to the dog. If management and some behavior modification can not be done and done correctly, then maybe putting him down would be best. I hate to say that, especially since I don't know the dog personally, so I'll just leave that sort of up in the air.

I missed the last few posts while typing. I absolutely agree that it is inexcusable to not have control over their dog so that he runs out and attacks other dogs. They clearly have not managed this well at all and I just wonder if they ever will.

 

[Adrienne]

I missed the last few posts while typing. I absolutely agree that it is inexcusable to not have control over their dog so that he runs out and attacks other dogs. They clearly have not managed this well at all and I just wonder if they ever will.

Dog has not ever 'run out' and attacked another dog. Dog has only bit when Dog has a resource near. Dog has been managed to be controlled/handled in public enough that this has never happened in public. Only in Dog's home has Dog injured another animal.

Thanks so much Dobe for the great post. All this info is very helpful!

 

[BluButt]

Dog aggression is one thing. Human aggression is another thing. They don't typically "cross over." There are loads of dogs that show defensiveness ("agression") or prey "aggression" (I put that in quotes because it's not aggression at all) to other animals and there is no relevance to humans whatsoever.

They most certainly can cross over if humans and dogs are both capable of causing the trigger. The trigger, in this case being the guarding of resources, is NOT mutually exclusive to just other dogs. While the problems may manifest primarily with other dogs, if the dog were mine I absolutely would not assume this dog is incapable of resource guarding in my presence (or my child's presence). I whole heartily understand their concern.

One thing I vehemently disagree with with the post about using an aversive collar, is that any kind of shock or punishment delivered to a dog with these kinds of issues is always contraindicated. To add more fear and stress to this dog would be a huge mistake. Pairing punishment with the environment, the triggers is NOT the way to treat his issues. Supressing behavior is never the way to go. It will come out later and usually much more explosively. The dog needs to have his mind changed about his triggers.

Let me make myself 110% clear here, I am not, and do not encourage anyone to do as I did. I was simply sharing my experience with a board certified veterinary behaviorist. The issues my dog has are not at all similar to the issues this dog has, therefore treatment and training and conditioning will likely not be anything alike.

I agree with your message though. Treating dogs who act out of fear punitively is not likely to improve anything. This is the very reason that the commonly held suggestion to repeatedly take food away from a dog to prevent resource guarding is an antiquated technique. You're likely only going to reinforce that the dog should HAVE a reason to guard its food - someone keeps taking it way. Duh!

 

[*blackrose]

The way I've had read this and understood it, the bites that have been inflicted on humans have all been on strangers on the property when the dog is tied out and the strangers startle the dog.

Maybe I'm used to territorial dogs...but how is this not normal? If Chloe was tethered outside, or even kenneled, and someone snuck around the side of the house without her knowing it, someone she didn't know well, and then that person popped out of no where and startled her? Why would she NOT bite? Crap, even Blackie - our Labrador that was the BEST boy and never bit EVER - went after an insurance adjuster when he walked around the side of the house without Blackie knowing he was on the property. Blackie had been sleeping and my mom was out back alone and when Blackie woke up to see a strange man walking into our back yard he just instantly went into protection mode.

And again, the attacks that have happend towards other animals have all been over a resource, and also towards small/young/fragile animals. Correct? Again, while there is a huge problem with the dog being allowed into these situations, I really can't see why you woud classify a single bite as something horrible, even if it did happen to kill the animal. If my dogs were to give a single bite to my ferrets it could seriously injure or kill them, but if they were to do the exact same behavior to another, larger animal it may have only hurt a bit. Luckly Chloe knows that smaller animals are fragile and she has been taught to be gentle, but Rose doesn't give a crap and would sooner kill and eat something small than be gentle with it. She isn't allowed around my ferrets, she isn't allowed around the kitten, she is closely supervised when with the cats, and she isn't allowed around any small dogs. The one time she did happen to meet a small Dachshund puppy she thought it was a rabbit and tried to kill it. (It was a suprise meeting with the Dachshund pup being loose, but just picking up the Dachshund pup and body blocking Rose averted disaster.)

Our neighbor's used to have a Malamute that lived with us. She'd just go back to her real house to eat her dinner, then she'd come right back into our yard to hang out and sleep over night. She was extremely food aggresive, dog aggressive, and small animal aggressive. She tolorated our dogs, but she often fought (or picked on) Rose as she was the other female. She would have killed a smaller dog without a second thought. She definitally would have had NO qualms about killing or seriously injuring another dog if they ever went near any type of food or treat she deamed as hers. If she hadn't been so overweight she could barely walk, I'm also sure she would have had a lovely time chasing and killing cats and other small animals. That being said, she was the SWEETEST dog in the entire world towards people. While we never tried to take food away from her, she had no problems with us being around her while she ate. She loved to give kisses and was a constant companion for my brother and I and she was extremely gentle with the toddlers. She was just an all around great girl (away from other animals) and I've had a soft spot for Mals ever since.

So I guess what I am trying to get at is...I don't see why this dog can't be happy in his current enviornment. He sounds no worse than Chloe (besides the animal aggression, which Chloe does not have, thank God, but my other dogs did and do), and she lives in a large family setting. The youngest child is 9, but that is still a child (especially when younger friends come over!). Chloe has gotten LOADS better, but she is still carefully managed around visitors and while out in public. We haven't had a problem with her in a long time now, but management never stops because it would be so easy for her to backslide.

The owners definitally need to take more precautions and seeing a behaviorist wouldn't hurt, but I fail to see how this dog is so dangerous, if proper precautions are taken. (With just the information given. I have no idea what the dog's internal state is.)

My advice would be: No more tying out. Supervision in all situations. Behavior modification training. If they owners can't do that, then yes, the behavior could get worse and it could end up being a very bad situation. But if those simple steps can be taken, then I think the dog could live a very happy, long life.

 

[BostonBanker]

The reason the collar worked for us is because we don't want to punish a dog for doing what it does, which is barking (and is the fundamental reason why dogs who bark in the absence of other behavioral issues would not be good candidates for an electric bark collar), but to interrupt the process of escalation. It brought him back to Earth long enough for us to introduce a reward for non-impulsive behavior, where as before I was so focused on stopping the behavior, unsuccessfully I might add, that there wasn't a break long enough for him to rewarded for the behavior we DID want. Which was quiet, calm, controlled, etc.

And it worked. And I'm happy to report that other than the battery that came with the collar, it hasn't been replaced it's been used that infrequently.

I agree 100% with Doberluv's "stay away from this" warning. I am glad it worked for you and your dog, and appreciate that you aren't suggesting it for this situation. I used to work with a woman who was a phenomenal animal trainer - worked with marine mammals for years, which, as we all know, is where a lot of our animal training knowledge comes from these days. She had a dog who was showing signs of being "aggressive" when people come to the house. A shock collar was used for basically the same reason you stated, if I remember the story correctly. However, that dog processed it as "people come to the door = pain". For the rest of his life, he had to be closed away whenever anyone came to the door, because his aggression went from display to serious after the "training". They did a phenomenal job of managing him and keeping everyone safe for a number of years, and gave him quite a nice life. I would never use aversives to fix aggression because such a 'misunderstanding' is all too likely and far to dangerous.

They most certainly can cross over if humans and dogs are both capable of causing the trigger.

I don't know - I used to work for a woman who was a behaviorist and did a lot of aggressive dog consults, and I never saw a situation where this happened. My own dog will resource guard against other dogs, but I have never once seen an ounce of the same behavior with any human and even with the highest value items in her possession. Some of it is training - she has no reason to believe that a human is going to take away her prize without giving her something in return, so she isn't worried.

I think if this dog belonged to a Chaz member or someone like that, we could very quickly come up with a training plan to keep the dog and everyone around it safe. I don't think it is a situation that is beyond saving. I do think that, based off the number of attacks these people have allowed to happen, I don't know that I would trust they are that willing to do something. Obviously Adrienne can't share more, so I am left speculating based off the information she has been able to provide.

 

[corgipower]

They most certainly can cross over if humans and dogs are both capable of causing the trigger.

I don't know - I used to work for a woman who was a behaviorist and did a lot of aggressive dog consults, and I never saw a situation where this happened. My own dog will resource guard against other dogs, but I have never once seen an ounce of the same behavior with any human and even with the highest value items in her possession. Some of it is training - she has no reason to believe that a human is going to take away her prize without giving her something in return, so she isn't worried.

Ares and Morgan resource guard with both me and other dogs. I don't know if they'd resource guard with strangers - they've never been put in such a position.

I tend to think that guarding resources means guarding them from anyone and anything and that the only thing preventing it from crossing over is if they've never felt threatened about losing it with whatever species it's not crossing to. It's a lot easier to control a human's behavior around a guardy dog and to teach the dog that the human isn't a threat to his prize than it is to teach him that same thing regarding other dogs.

 

[milos_mommy]

I disagree. The problems have all been related to resource guarding, and no one has yet to explain why the dog wouldn't suddenly decide to exhibit that behavior with a person. Giving his propensity to strike with little to no warning, with such intensity, I would be worried that if/when he decides he needs to guard from a person, that it will be really, really ugly.

Claiming such a pet is totally safe given that the owners aren't ignorant to the problem doesn't account for the fact that he can never, ever be 100% trusted in case he does feel the need to guard from a human, and sometimes accidents happen. Especially with children.

I think the potential is there, which does not a "fine, safe pet" make. Manageable? Perhaps. But safe? Fine? I don't think so.

hundreds upon hundreds of dogs resource guard from other dogs and not from humans. it is extremely common. If any dog who tries to guard food/toys from other dogs shouldn't be trusted around people or children then half or more of the dogs i know who are around children and strangers daily with zero problems ever would be put down or muzzled constantly.

this dog has never shown unwarranted aggression towards a human being IMO. I wouldn't count the instance when the dog jumped up and bit the hand of a person wearing gloves with no breaking of the skin and aggression.

The other times he's a bit a human, it was a strange person not only intruding on his property, but surprising him and coming up on him suddenly. No one said he strikes suddenly and without warning. If I was in this dog's position when he bit, I'd bite, too. He wasn't mauling the people he bit, no medical attention was needed, it sounds like he was surprised on a tie out and bit because he felt trapped and invaded and then backed off once the person did the same.

As far as being allowed to kill little dogs MULTIPLE TIMES, the owners absolutely need to get this dog in control.

It's possible it could have been a situation where this dog was on leash, being walked in a public place, and someone with an unleashed, out of control small dog let their dog run up to him and get killed.

When you have a D/A dog, you need to be EXTREMELY responsible and in control when in public. I should also say Especially if you have a breed whose image is going to be negatively affected by this.

 

[Doberluv]

I disagree. The problems have all been related to resource guarding, and no one has yet to explain why the dog wouldn't suddenly decide to exhibit that behavior with a person. Giving his propensity to strike with little to no warning, with such intensity, I would be worried that if/when he decides he needs to guard from a person, that it will be really, really ugly.

I'm a professional trainer. The bulk of my business is related to dogs with problematic behavior. It is thought of among most veterinary behaviorists that inter dog aggression and dog to human aggression are usually two separate things. As I said, it is not impossible for a dog to exhibit both...obviously. We see plenty of that in my profession and amongst the dog owning public. But to be overly concerned or to assume a dog that exhibits inter dog (or other species) attacks, (prey, defensive, antagonistic, resource guarding and other types of aggression) will transfer this to humans is putting the cart before the horse or jumping to conclusions.

Dogs that resource guard against other dogs do not necessarily transfer that to humans. There are loads upon loads of dogs that have issues with other dogs, but accept humans around their stuff just fine and it never transfers, regardless if it's the same resource or trigger. I can provide hundreds of examples, even among my own dogs. Take one high valued item and watch one of them warn the other to stay away. I can walk up, ask the dog to give me the item and he's happy to oblige. With my recent dogs, I've pretty much conditioned them to give me things when asked, but not all my dogs in the past have I done that with and they too, were just fine.

This is not to say that a dog can not have resource guarding issues with other dogs and humans. They do sometimes, like CP described. But typically, a dog that goes after other dogs doesn't suddenly decide to guard against humans when all along, for years, he's been just fine with them. If it develops, I believe that it develops independently from the behavior exhibited toward other dogs...not that it developed because the dog started out worrying about dogs taking his stuff. Dogs don't generalize well and many types of aggression toward humans and aggression toward dogs are thought to be viewed separately by dogs rather than melded into one single, condition/response thing. Territorial aggression may be a more generalized thing to some dogs. If a dog constantly has things taken from him by humans without some kind of reward or trade, sure...he may well develop resource guarding. We see that a lot. But just because a dog guards his stuff from other dogs, does not warrant fear that he'll necessarily or probably "decide" all of a sudden to guard against humans if he's never shown trepidation to humans before. They're not as complex cognitively as we are. They don't think..."well, dogs have threatened my stuff, but no human ever has, but they might, so I better start attacking humans too, just in case." They probably think, "Dogs have threatened my stuff so I better beware. Humans haven't threatened my stuff, so no worries." Period. End of story. If humans have threatened their stuff, they may indeed become defensive.

Caution and prevention is always, always a good idea...conditioning, exercises trading something better with a dog for something he has possession of helps raise the odds that he'll not develop a threatened feeling. Also, people don't read dogs warning signs well enough or early enough. That's understandable. And a lot of dogs don't read "dog" very well and they wind up pushing the dog beyond his comfort level well before an attack happens. We just don't see it coming and it looks like it's "out of the blue" when all along there have been signs.

One of my dogs, Jose` will guard the Dremel (yes, you heard me right. lol) against the other dogs if they merely walk past it if I leave it out. They couldn't care less about it, but he warns them just in case. LOL. There's no attack...just a little growl to tell them. If I or any other human picks up the Dremel, he couldn't care less. I can think of lots of examples where any one of my dogs may guard a mutually coveted item, such as a deer leg bone one of them found in the woods...more than once. If the other dogs are near, the one in possession will guard it. "grrrrrr." And the other dog(s) will veer away and not push the issue. If I go up and want to examine it for anything gross like worms, before giving it back to the dog, there is no sign of concern...never have had that problem. Now, if I had taken things off my dogs constantly or punished them, then taken the item, that could have lead to a different story. But....just because a dog guards against other dogs taking his stuff does not necessarily cross over to resource guarding against humans.

I disagree with the behaviorist who utilized an aversive response, such as a shock collar in conjunction with anything even remotely related to aggression. That is thought by most modern behaviorists to be a serious no no because dogs learn strongly by association. There's too much risk of fall out...if not immediate, often later on. That she waited for the dog to calm, then reward is fine and dandy. But no one knows for sure how much time must elapse for individual dogs to lose or miss the association. Studies show that shock collars raise stress hormones and in a dog that is already stressed, I disagree with piling on more stuff for him to worry about. The stress hormones, adrenalin, the higher respiratory and heart rate does not drop off instantly or in the time elapsed between the shock and the reward. It is good that everything came out well for your dog. It's just that I feel the risk of back-fire is significant enough to avoid aversives altogether when dealing with aggression issues of any kind. There are too many other ways to handle behavior problems without punishment. JMO.

Anyhow, with this particular, theoretical dog, he has not shown resource guarding toward his family. I would recommend nevertheless to implement small practice sessions where the dog gives a mediocre valued item in trade for something better and then give back the item and repeat as a fun game. I would recommend they practice with a variety of things, graduating from lower value to higher and the traded item respectively proportionate to the item traded.

Do I think that because he's guarding against other dogs, he's going to start guarding against his humans? No. I think that he could develop a human resource guarding issue if he has not learned to defer to humans for his resources. It's always a good idea to keep practicing that.

Even though he's fine with children, they can take part (supervised and if safe) in having the dog defer to them for food, affection, toys, getting to go for a walk or go outside etc, etc. It would just strengthen the relationships in the right direction. It's always better to put the odds in one's favor by covering all bases because we can't predict how any individual will act, depending on stress levels, changes in environment, a rotten day, novel stimuli and on and on. Many conditions or variables can affect the way we all behave. If they ever feel the dog has nervousness regarding children, then that scares me too much.

If these people could prevent him from biting people, build a fence, keep people out, supervise this dog better, use a muzzle when out and about, it is possible he could have a good life and people could be kept safe. But after repeated accidents, I have my doubts about their ability, which is strange because it sounds like they've put in the time for obedience training and so forth. If they could socialize him more, starting with known friends, associating high value treats with them, working up to less known visitors, he could improve a lot. I definitely recommend that they don't tie him up, but build a fence instead. Lots of exercise increases happy hormones, which should also help. And of course, (I forget what's been said) but a vet's visit for anything off medically.

 

[Doberluv]

The reason the collar worked for us is because we don't want to punish a dog for doing what it does, which is barking (and is the fundamental reason why dogs who bark in the absence of other behavioral issues would not be good candidates for an electric bark collar), but to interrupt the process of escalation. It brought him back to Earth long enough for us to introduce a reward for non-impulsive behavior, where as before I was so focused on stopping the behavior, unsuccessfully I might add, that there wasn't a break long enough for him to rewarded for the behavior we DID want. Which was quiet, calm, controlled, etc.

And it worked. And I'm happy to report that other than the battery that came with the collar, it hasn't been replaced it's been used that infrequently.

What about preventing the process of escalation in the first place? How about not waiting for the unwanted behavior to even become a thought in the dogs head...while all along filling in those empty brain cells, just waiting for yucky behavior to go into them, with wanted behavior? A gradual and slow desensatization and counter conditioning can preclude the waiting for the unwanted behavior. A really on top of it trainer or behaviorist sets up situations where the unwanted behavior is unable to be practiced over and over, thereby reinforcing and escalating it. There should be no need to punish the unwanted behavior, but rather, reinforcing the desired behavior by setting the dog up to succeed in the first place. Of course, inevidibly, mistakes in timing happen. But that's the trainer's/ower's fault, not the dog's. Removing something the dog likes is effective without having to resort to a shock or other punishment added. And then a 2nd trial can take place. JMO, of course.

 

[Sweet72947]

Just wanted to add something about resource guarding.

Dogs are NOT wired to share with each other; wanting our dogs to "share and share alike" is anthropomorphism. A dog that gets in another dog's food/treat is a very rude dog, and a brat. I have two dogs, and neither one bothers the other while they eat. The thought wouldn't even cross their minds, and that's the way I prefer it: dogs that ignore each other while they have high value items. I don't find it surprising or bad at all that dogs would guard from other dogs. In my house, I simply want them to leave each other alone while eating. The dog that will try to take food from another dog is the one with the real training issue IMO, not the dog that's guarding. If you don't have a rude dog getting in other dog's faces when they are eating (or enjoying some other high value thing), you won't have fights over resources! (A dog guarding with humans is a different story of course; while not unnatural, it is unsafe and needs to be fixed.)

As for the hypothetical dog being discussed in this thread, I have no advice as everyone else has covered it pretty well, I think.

 

[sillysally]

Sally will resource guard with certain items, but has not ever done so with us, even with very high value items, such as her hard egg toy or raw bones.

 

[Doberluv]

Most dogs, once something is in the possession of the other dog, won't try to take it away. That is...most. There are dogs that are completely naive about doggie rules. The trouble usually arises when neither dog is in possession and they both want something at the same time. Then there are those where another dog is not doing anything overt to try and get a possession, but merely walks by (like what happens in my house on occassion) The dog with the possession may simply "remind" the other dogs not to come too close. (like in the case with Jose`) That's just a communication at that stage and it's fine. The other dogs respect each other's language.

But there are those dogs that will over-react, get all worked up about a dog that is not even attempting to look at their possession and some really get snarky.

There was a case of dog to human resource guarding that was so severe, a human could not be in the same room as the dog while he was eating. He'd charge clear across the room, aggressively. This dog needed some serious "therapy." No food bowl, just hand feeding in trade for some asked-for behaviors, graduating to food bowl being held by the human, not set down on the floor for some time, along with some other "tricks." With some NILIF and some very gradual changing of his perception about humans and food, he came around great. Most of what I've come across has been much milder. Resource guarding can be very serious and it can be seen in milder forms, which is relatively easy to turn around. Prevention, by doing trade games, putting extra goodies right in the bowl with your hand...when the puppy or adult dog is eating (as long as the dog is safe and doesn't have a snapping problem) is infinitely better than risking waiting for something to crop up later.

There have been numerous occassions where I had set down the food bowls and then remembered I had something really scrumpteous in the fridge that I wanted to put on their food. So, I'd pick up the food (a-h-h-h-h....take away their food?!!?!) and put the yummy food on top and return the bowl promptly. My dogs LOVE it when I take up their food bowl. They begin prancing around, looking up at the counter. They know something stupendous is about to go in. So, taking away food is generally not nice and can lead to issues, sure enough. But in this case, taking up the food bowl has proven multiple times to bring with it a big, big pay off. We're talkin' prime rib with mushroom sauce or pork tenderloin, sprinkled with caraway and garlic. Then there was Coho salmon with a light lemon glaze. *jale* (try to figure that one out)

 

[corgipower]

And there are some dogs who...when in possession of something highly valuable...will walk away from it if another dog approaches and leave it for the other dog to have.

 

[Doberluv]

Yes, definitely CP. I always feel sorry for those ones. And there are those that put on the coy, sly, submissive, army crawl, lick the under side of the other's chin and when that one gets distracted and responds to the buttering up, the sly one sneaks in and jacks the toy. (and they say that appeasement is never "dominant.")

And there's Chulita. I've seen her several times, when Jose` has a chew toy, go up to him and get that flirty look where she stiffens up, does a little hop, then another with her body curved, sniffs his ear with her head slightly turned, her ears a little back, until..........................he leaves his toy to answer her request to "play." Only, she's not really wanting to play. When he leaves his toy, she sneaks in and grabs it and runs. ROFOL. I kid you not. This has happened several times. I always feel so sorry for Jose`. He never seems to catch on. And he doesn't seem to care one way or the other, except he's left with no one to play with. That's when I step in and play with him or get him something else. LOL.