Which option is fair?
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Renee, I work with aggressive dogs or dogs that bite out of defensiveness, over-protectiveness or resource guarding etc. They often improve a whole lot through gradual counter-conditioning/desensitization. However, a dog with a bite history is more apt to bite again and is never cured. I always liken it to something along the lines of diabetes. There is no cure but it can be managed. The trouble is, that many people don't have what it takes to manage such a dog. It takes an extreme amount of effective husbandry/training, diligence and caution, even when the dog seems fine for a long time.
I always stress that point to owners....that although they're seeing great improvements and their dog has come to change his mind about the things that triggered him to bite before, that they must never, ever let their guard down around people. A dog's temperament is his temperament...it's inherent.... and if he's unstable, even with good training, when that slips or reverts, which it very well can, the dog can slip back into his old ways. A trigger might come along that wasn't recognized by the humans before. Other conditions, newly present in the environment might increase stress in the dog beyond what is thought to be his threshold.
That's my opinion anyhow, about dogs that bite, at least in most cases. And around children, it's particularly high risk.
I always stress that point to owners....that although they're seeing great improvements and their dog has come to change his mind about the things that triggered him to bite before, that they must never, ever let their guard down around people. A dog's temperament is his temperament...it's inherent.... and if he's unstable, even with good training, when that slips or reverts, which it very well can, the dog can slip back into his old ways. A trigger might come along that wasn't recognized by the humans before. Other conditions, newly present in the environment might increase stress in the dog beyond what is thought to be his threshold.
That's my opinion anyhow, about dogs that bite, at least in most cases. And around children, it's particularly high risk.
Of course that is true. But what I do know about my dog is that in five years, she has never encountered a situation in which she felt she had no option but to bite. This dog has found at least three times where he bit and broke skin. That's a pretty high amount in my opinion.
All dogs can bite and can do damage physically. Every dog has a threshold that can be reached and will provoke that response. This theoretical dog clearly has a very low threshold. It will take serious management to keep him from ever reaching that threshold again. The theoretical owners have allowed it to happen at least three times already.
While I love when I'm proven wrong and a dog like the golden here who's name is suddenly escaping me gets rehomed into a truly good situation. I also stand by my belief that dogs with a multiple bite history (barring some sort of extreme circumstance like protecting the owner or themselves) should not be rehomed.
All dogs can bite and can do damage physically. Every dog has a threshold that can be reached and will provoke that response. This theoretical dog clearly has a very low threshold. It will take serious management to keep him from ever reaching that threshold again. The theoretical owners have allowed it to happen at least three times already.
While I love when I'm proven wrong and a dog like the golden here who's name is suddenly escaping me gets rehomed into a truly good situation. I also stand by my belief that dogs with a multiple bite history (barring some sort of extreme circumstance like protecting the owner or themselves) should not be rehomed.
Of course all dogs can bite. But a dog with a bite history, with multiple instances has learned that it works to bite. A dog that has learned other ways to deal with whatever it is dogs deal with that provokes some and doesn't provoke others, has a better track record of avoiding the propensity to use biting as his answer. When a dog has bitten, he has learned a behavior, been reinforced for it because it worked and therefore is more likley to repeat the behavior in the future. A dog with a very stable temperament and high tolerance for irritation is less likely to bite than a dog with a poor temperament and a poor track record. Of course, we never know just exactly what a particular dog's tolerance level is at any given time or any given health issue or environmental stresses. That is why management, supervision and good husbandry is always needed with dogs. But what we're talking about here, is a particular, theoretical dog with an unstable temperament and/or poor handling and most importantly poor management. This combination of factors raises the odds significantly of repeated bites in the future.
Thanks again for all the replies. I apologize for having to be so vauge but for those who know where I spend a good chunk of my free time you will be able to figure out an idea of what I'm talking about. It's impossible for me to give any more info than what I have. Hypothtical dog thanks you all as this info will be invaluable.
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The dog needs further training. He needs training that will teach him to control his impulses, realize when he's getting upset/anxious (because it sounds like this caused by fear or anxiety) and what to do about it without acting aggressively. I would not EVER leave this dog unattended with children but I don't think in the home with the dog's own children it would be an issue at all.
Has this dog EVER gone after a human family member? Bit or even growled, snarled, or acted aggressive in any way? If so, how was the dog provoked?
I would not EVER let any strange person pet this dog. On walks and such "he's not friendly" is a very acceptable deterrent. Ask the dog to heel and move on. Sometimes with strange children running up you'll have to yell at them but it's better than them getting bit.
As far as how the dog would be with house guests, that is up for the owners interpretation.
I don't think the dog needs to be a primarily outdoor dog, OR muzzled in the home, or PTS, or rehomed. But if the family can't handle the aggression or it DOES escalate towards the family (which i think is unlikely, unless the kids suddenly get wilder or more aggressive) then rehoming is the best option.
Has this dog EVER gone after a human family member? Bit or even growled, snarled, or acted aggressive in any way? If so, how was the dog provoked?
I would not EVER let any strange person pet this dog. On walks and such "he's not friendly" is a very acceptable deterrent. Ask the dog to heel and move on. Sometimes with strange children running up you'll have to yell at them but it's better than them getting bit.
As far as how the dog would be with house guests, that is up for the owners interpretation.
I don't think the dog needs to be a primarily outdoor dog, OR muzzled in the home, or PTS, or rehomed. But if the family can't handle the aggression or it DOES escalate towards the family (which i think is unlikely, unless the kids suddenly get wilder or more aggressive) then rehoming is the best option.
The dog has never shown aggression toward any family members or children in general. Dog also has not shown aggression at any time other than when on tie-out and then only when people come around the side of the house where Dog cannot see them until they are very close to the dog. The dog did jump up and nipped someones hand on a walk once but the dog knew the person, the person was wearing gloves and the dog has been played with in a manner that allowed the dog to 'bite' hands that had gloves on in a playful manner.
On walks dog is told to 'leave it' when someone walks nearby and dog has always done this. Dog is very manageable around people unless on tie-out when he cannot see them until they are close. Dog is fine with house guests and has never shown any form of aggression toward humans except in the situations as described above.
Dogs dog/animal aggression is such that dog cannot be around other animals unless dog is muzzled except the few select dogs Dog has been raised around. Dog can successfully walk past another dog without reacting severely if other dog is restrained in some way, ie. behind a fence.
On walks dog is told to 'leave it' when someone walks nearby and dog has always done this. Dog is very manageable around people unless on tie-out when he cannot see them until they are close. Dog is fine with house guests and has never shown any form of aggression toward humans except in the situations as described above.
Dogs dog/animal aggression is such that dog cannot be around other animals unless dog is muzzled except the few select dogs Dog has been raised around. Dog can successfully walk past another dog without reacting severely if other dog is restrained in some way, ie. behind a fence.
I 100% agree. I almost euthanized my Jack Russell last year (I've talked about it here before). At the last minute I got an appointment with a board certified veterinary behaviorist (more on that in a minute). We got some invaluable information of behavior modification, and even though he is very advanced in obedience (CGC, TDI, etc), he had absolutely no impulse control and was an extremely nervous and fearful dog. And I don't consider myself to be inexperienced with dogs by any means, but I now truly believe that dogs are capable of having "issues" just like humans are, regardless of their upbringing.
Without the BCVB he would be dead. I would not (and will not) rehome this dog, it would irresponsible in my opinion. We are in full on maintenance mode, and everyday is a lesson in something. It was a commitment we made when we decided we wanted him to live instead of being put to sleep. Dogs like this cannot be "cured". They can, however, be managed. In certain situations where he has known triggers he can never, ever be trusted. For us the biggest mystery was pin pointing the triggers and learning better ways to deter the behavior before it escalates. It seemed, sometimes, to come out of no where. This is where the BCVB came in.
Surprisingly, the most unlikely tool for us was our electric bark collar. I had purchased it shortly before contacting the BCVB, and she confirmed what I had observed - it broke the cycle of escalation. He'd bark when he saw someone outside, or a squirrel, or when the door bell rang. The more he barked, the more upset he got. Initially I would crate him or put him behind a gate to answer the door or go outside if there were people out there, but the incessant barking, and thus, the escalation of his frustration/fear would become more and more and more intense until finally one day he got through the gate and the front door (my other non-aggressive dog had opened it, mostly because I was lax in closing it properly, thinking the aggressive dog was behind the gate) and he ran down the drive way and jumped INTO a fedex truck trying to attack the driver. The obvious question here is whether or not we worked on exercises to train him to wait at the door, etc. The answer was yes. But true to a nervous dog with NO impulse control, obedience commands meant squat when he had his sights set on something. There in lied the problem!
The reason the collar worked for us is because we don't want to punish a dog for doing what it does, which is barking (and is the fundamental reason why dogs who bark in the absence of other behavioral issues would not be good candidates for an electric bark collar), but to interrupt the process of escalation. It brought him back to Earth long enough for us to introduce a reward for non-impulsive behavior, where as before I was so focused on stopping the behavior, unsuccessfully I might add, that there wasn't a break long enough for him to rewarded for the behavior we DID want. Which was quiet, calm, controlled, etc.
And it worked. And I'm happy to report that other than the battery that came with the collar, it hasn't been replaced it's been used that infrequently.
But before you run out and try aversion training, please consult with a professional though. Which is what brings me to the topic of "behaviorists". There is a HUGE difference between trainers and behaviorists. Many trainers are knowledgeable in animal behavior, but to be an animal behaviorist as recognized by the American Veterinary Society of Animal Behavior and the American College of Veterinary Behaviorists, you must first be a DVM and complete a residency with 200 cases under the supervision of a mentor approved by the American Board of Veterinary Specialization.
If you are paying a pet dog trainer who claims to be a "behaviorist", you are being robbed. (In my not so humble opinion.)
To recap:
* I do not think dogs with a bite history should be rehomed.
* I do not think dogs with a bite history will likely ever be "cured", but rather will require an intensive and interactive maintenance plan. Deciding whether or not you are equipped to make this commitment is an integral part of deciding whether or not euthansia is an option. Sadly, euthanasia is not solely dependent on the dog, but rather the treatment options available that are likely to work (or not work). That depends entirely on the handler and is something you'll (or the owner) will have to come to terms with.
* Said commitment is precisely the reason rehoming a dog like this becomes so difficult, running the risk of becoming a bigger nightmare as opposed to solving the problems.
* Trainers, while knowledgeable in behavior, are not behaviorists. Shop for a trainer wisely.
Without the BCVB he would be dead. I would not (and will not) rehome this dog, it would irresponsible in my opinion. We are in full on maintenance mode, and everyday is a lesson in something. It was a commitment we made when we decided we wanted him to live instead of being put to sleep. Dogs like this cannot be "cured". They can, however, be managed. In certain situations where he has known triggers he can never, ever be trusted. For us the biggest mystery was pin pointing the triggers and learning better ways to deter the behavior before it escalates. It seemed, sometimes, to come out of no where. This is where the BCVB came in.
Surprisingly, the most unlikely tool for us was our electric bark collar. I had purchased it shortly before contacting the BCVB, and she confirmed what I had observed - it broke the cycle of escalation. He'd bark when he saw someone outside, or a squirrel, or when the door bell rang. The more he barked, the more upset he got. Initially I would crate him or put him behind a gate to answer the door or go outside if there were people out there, but the incessant barking, and thus, the escalation of his frustration/fear would become more and more and more intense until finally one day he got through the gate and the front door (my other non-aggressive dog had opened it, mostly because I was lax in closing it properly, thinking the aggressive dog was behind the gate) and he ran down the drive way and jumped INTO a fedex truck trying to attack the driver. The obvious question here is whether or not we worked on exercises to train him to wait at the door, etc. The answer was yes. But true to a nervous dog with NO impulse control, obedience commands meant squat when he had his sights set on something. There in lied the problem!
The reason the collar worked for us is because we don't want to punish a dog for doing what it does, which is barking (and is the fundamental reason why dogs who bark in the absence of other behavioral issues would not be good candidates for an electric bark collar), but to interrupt the process of escalation. It brought him back to Earth long enough for us to introduce a reward for non-impulsive behavior, where as before I was so focused on stopping the behavior, unsuccessfully I might add, that there wasn't a break long enough for him to rewarded for the behavior we DID want. Which was quiet, calm, controlled, etc.
And it worked. And I'm happy to report that other than the battery that came with the collar, it hasn't been replaced it's been used that infrequently.
But before you run out and try aversion training, please consult with a professional though. Which is what brings me to the topic of "behaviorists". There is a HUGE difference between trainers and behaviorists. Many trainers are knowledgeable in animal behavior, but to be an animal behaviorist as recognized by the American Veterinary Society of Animal Behavior and the American College of Veterinary Behaviorists, you must first be a DVM and complete a residency with 200 cases under the supervision of a mentor approved by the American Board of Veterinary Specialization.
If you are paying a pet dog trainer who claims to be a "behaviorist", you are being robbed. (In my not so humble opinion.)
To recap:
* I do not think dogs with a bite history should be rehomed.
* I do not think dogs with a bite history will likely ever be "cured", but rather will require an intensive and interactive maintenance plan. Deciding whether or not you are equipped to make this commitment is an integral part of deciding whether or not euthansia is an option. Sadly, euthanasia is not solely dependent on the dog, but rather the treatment options available that are likely to work (or not work). That depends entirely on the handler and is something you'll (or the owner) will have to come to terms with.
* Said commitment is precisely the reason rehoming a dog like this becomes so difficult, running the risk of becoming a bigger nightmare as opposed to solving the problems.
* Trainers, while knowledgeable in behavior, are not behaviorists. Shop for a trainer wisely.
And the circumstances surrounding the killing. A dog loose in the backyard snatching a squirrel? Not so bad. A dog lunging across the street, on leash, to maul a yorkie, completely unprovoked? Big problem.
I vehemently disagree with the folks who say a dog killing another animal, but yet hasn't shown aggression to its family, is never a problem. It ALWAYS has the potential to be a problem. Your unprovoked dog does not have the right to maul another person's pet in the street/park, and I think there are way more details needed before we can decide whether or not this dog's "killing of another animal" is indeed a problem or not.
ETA: I realize the example I gave is not something hypothetical-dog has done, but is merely to make my point that any animal agression/killing is not something to be over looked.
In this case I still see the dog having the potential to harm another dog if his being under control is contingent upon what OTHER dogs are doing (ie, behind a fence).
I vehemently disagree with the folks who say a dog killing another animal, but yet hasn't shown aggression to its family, is never a problem. It ALWAYS has the potential to be a problem. Your unprovoked dog does not have the right to maul another person's pet in the street/park, and I think there are way more details needed before we can decide whether or not this dog's "killing of another animal" is indeed a problem or not.
ETA: I realize the example I gave is not something hypothetical-dog has done, but is merely to make my point that any animal agression/killing is not something to be over looked.
In this case I still see the dog having the potential to harm another dog if his being under control is contingent upon what OTHER dogs are doing (ie, behind a fence).
Dog has killed a kitten and a puppy. Dog has injured three puppies. All situations involved a resource in the vicinity, food and Dog's crate. Dog does not kill wild animals. Dog does not go 'ballistic' on leash when Dog sees another dog but Dog will bite if another dog approaches. Dog is very calm about the bites, no growling, snarling, just a calm albeit stiff manner and then a bite.
And that, to me, is a problem. I do not believe that unprovoked killing over resources wouldn't have the potential to cross over to humans. It absolutely would. Why wouldn't it?
A dog that has had 5 serious infractions, resulting in two deaths and three injuries, would never, ever have access to other animals or children, would be muzzled, or would be euthanized.
The obvious question - why were 4 PUPPIES and one KITTEN allowed to be in the vacinity of this dog after the first incident?
If said incidents ONLY happened to other animals, I'd leave it up to a professional to discern whether or not it could be safely rehomed.
A dog that has had 5 serious infractions, resulting in two deaths and three injuries, would never, ever have access to other animals or children, would be muzzled, or would be euthanized.
The obvious question - why were 4 PUPPIES and one KITTEN allowed to be in the vacinity of this dog after the first incident?
If said incidents ONLY happened to other animals, I'd leave it up to a professional to discern whether or not it could be safely rehomed.
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It sounds to me like this dog is a perfectly normal, safe, loving family companion that can not be around strange animals, dog aggressive like MANY other dogs in this world, something that needs to be managed but is not in any way difficult to do, occasionally inconvenient but not dangerous unless the people are ignorant of the problem which it sounds like they are not.
This dogs aggression towards humans have always been provoked. Strangers should NOT be allowed in this yard while the dog is on the tie out. A fenced yard sounds much safer but obviously is not always possible, a "Beware of Dog" sign and the tie out placed where the dog won't be startled by strangers, or only tied-out when supervised, and I see absolutely NO reason why this dog couldn't be involved in family life. I'd use caution with strange children who may not know doggy etiquette and might grab the dog from behind or something, but otherwise he sounds like a fine, safe pet.
This dogs aggression towards humans have always been provoked. Strangers should NOT be allowed in this yard while the dog is on the tie out. A fenced yard sounds much safer but obviously is not always possible, a "Beware of Dog" sign and the tie out placed where the dog won't be startled by strangers, or only tied-out when supervised, and I see absolutely NO reason why this dog couldn't be involved in family life. I'd use caution with strange children who may not know doggy etiquette and might grab the dog from behind or something, but otherwise he sounds like a fine, safe pet.
Sure. But your dog should also be reasonably controllable on a leash that such a mauling would never happen. If a dog is able to hypothetically drag a person across the street to attack anything, I think some work is in order before the dog is safe to be out in public. We call that a "loose canon" around here.
There was a story local to me a few years ago about a dog who, completely unprovoked, attacked a little boy on a bike. Several people chalked it up to the dog mistaking the little boy for "prey".
Being the owner of 3 dogs at time, and being a person who uses high prey drive sporting dogs in field, I called bull pockey! When we're walking by the library where there are people, my dogs are in control and don't attack people or other animals. If I couldn't ensure that, I wouldn't take my dogs in public where they are exposed to situations that would tempt their "prey drive".
Dogs are dogs, I get that. But it's not an excuse for them to fly off the handle and repeatedly kill things when the dog should be under immediate control of a handler. Walking down the road, or sitting in the living room, you should have a certain level of control over the behavior of your dog.
There was a story local to me a few years ago about a dog who, completely unprovoked, attacked a little boy on a bike. Several people chalked it up to the dog mistaking the little boy for "prey".
Being the owner of 3 dogs at time, and being a person who uses high prey drive sporting dogs in field, I called bull pockey! When we're walking by the library where there are people, my dogs are in control and don't attack people or other animals. If I couldn't ensure that, I wouldn't take my dogs in public where they are exposed to situations that would tempt their "prey drive".
Dogs are dogs, I get that. But it's not an excuse for them to fly off the handle and repeatedly kill things when the dog should be under immediate control of a handler. Walking down the road, or sitting in the living room, you should have a certain level of control over the behavior of your dog.
I disagree. The problems have all been related to resource guarding, and no one has yet to explain why the dog wouldn't suddenly decide to exhibit that behavior with a person. Giving his propensity to strike with little to no warning, with such intensity, I would be worried that if/when he decides he needs to guard from a person, that it will be really, really ugly.
Claiming such a pet is totally safe given that the owners aren't ignorant to the problem doesn't account for the fact that he can never, ever be 100% trusted in case he does feel the need to guard from a human, and sometimes accidents happen. Especially with children.
I think the potential is there, which does not a "fine, safe pet" make. Manageable? Perhaps. But safe? Fine? I don't think so.
Claiming such a pet is totally safe given that the owners aren't ignorant to the problem doesn't account for the fact that he can never, ever be 100% trusted in case he does feel the need to guard from a human, and sometimes accidents happen. Especially with children.
I think the potential is there, which does not a "fine, safe pet" make. Manageable? Perhaps. But safe? Fine? I don't think so.
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