Whats with all the _______doodles?

[RedyreRottweilers]

A poodle is an elegant lighter boned up on leg square dog with a 50/50 head, a clean narrow muzzle, an upright tail carriage with a dense curly coat that constantly grows and requires grooming. Bred for many years as companions, they were traditionally used at water retrievers.

A labrador retriever is longer than tall, heavy boned square headed dog with a level or lower tail carriage, a dense water repellant double coat, and a hallmark fat short otter tail.

Now why would any person in their right mind want to cross these 2 breeds who are polar opposites in body, head and coat type?

What POSSIBLE purpose could this cross have? How could either breed possibly benefit from such a cross? Other than to sell puppies to unsuspecting or illinformed people who don't know any better to make money?

Where do these so called "breeders" compete with their dogs?

Do you have a link to the breed standard?

What registry are they registered with? Don't say they are not accepted yet. If it's a legitimate breed in any way, SOMEONE is keeping a stud book.

NO ONE who values either of the breeds in this cross would ever consider such a misogynous act as breeding the 2 together.

Personally, I find it reprehensible that someone would do this intentionally.

 

[keller]

The point is keller, that there are tons of mutts available that dont have homes. and people are not benefitted by these designer mutts. if you mix a poodle with a lab, some of the puppies will have the lab qualities and some will have the poodle qualities and there isnt a way to tell until they get older which puppies have which qualities. If these people were trying to create a new breed of dog for a specific reason that would be different, but all they are doing is breeding a poodle with as many different breeds of dogs as possible. it takes a long time and a lot of work and knowlegde to create a new breed, i bet the first people who created labradors are rolling over in their graves everytime a lab is bred to a poodle.

There are tons of purebreds that don't have homes either. A person who places their dogs into the best homes, and will take them back if they lose that home has not added any dogs to the local shelter. The people who did that were the ones that sold their dogs to random people off the street, and people who A. Bought a dog because it was cute, then threw it away later, or B. Cared for their dog until life's circumstances changed and didn't bother to find it a good home.

You can have a good idea of what a dog's temperment will be like if it's purebred, but there are always exceptions. You also gamble when you go get a cute little puppy at the shelter, and have no idea what kind of dog it is. There is a movement to turn the goldendoodle, and labradoodle into a breed (I'm not sure about aussiedoodles, shepadoodles etc). Yes, people have gained something. Every owner has gained something. They've gained the same thing that everyone who went out and bought any kind of pet only dog has gained. Which is the same thing people had in mind when they created tiny little breeds that are only good as companions. They could gain the same thing by getting a shelter dog, and so could every person who buys a purebred dog solely as a pet.

 

[keller]

A poodle is an elegant lighter boned up on leg square dog with a 50/50 head, a clean narrow muzzle, an upright tail carriage with a dense curly coat that constantly grows and requires grooming. Bred for many years as companions, they were traditionally used at water retrievers.

A labrador retriever is longer than tall, heavy boned square headed dog with a level or lower tail carriage, a dense water repellant double coat, and a hallmark fat short otter tail.

Now why would any person in their right mind want to cross these 2 breeds who are polar opposites in body, head and coat type?

What POSSIBLE purpose could this cross have? How could either breed possibly benefit from such a cross? Other than to sell puppies to unsuspecting or illinformed people who don't know any better to make money?

Well as I'm sure you know, one of the first movements was originally planned so that the blind allergy sufferers could have a guide dog. The curly coated versions are more likely to be good for allergy sufferers than the wavy versions. Allergy sufferers have also had good success with an
F1B There are still other movements out there that are looking into making it a breed. Honestly, it doesn't affect me either way whether they make it a breed or not. How are the breeds harmed? Not everyone who goes out and gets a mixed breed thinks that the doodle is a breed, or that they're all hypo-allergenic (or than any dog is really) or that all mixes are healthy because of hybrid vigour.

Where do these so called "breeders" compete with their dogs?

Do you have a link to the breed standard?

What registry are they registered with? Don't say they are not accepted yet. If it's a legitimate breed in any way, SOMEONE is keeping a stud book.

NO ONE who values either of the breeds in this cross would ever consider such a misogynous act as breeding the 2 together.

As you know, the goldendoodle isn't a breed. Nor have I claimed that it was. Misogynous?? In what way is this misogynous? Was it misogynous, when we were changing the wolf, or creating all those other breeds? It's not like the dogs were gaining something when we went out and made a new kind to suit us, and our needs and wants. Are all the current breeds we have now the result of people lovingly making changes, and taking good care of each individual dog that they were responsible for creating? During what year did it become so horrible and irresponsible to try and change these animals? Was it okay to meddle in wolf genetics in the first place? The breed standards that we currently have were created by us. I'm sure you know that some people think that the current breed standards of some dogs are bad for them, and that we've lost sight of what was intended. Who's right? This can't be answered definitively, of course. Why is original intention something that must be taken so heavily into account for something that's going to spend its life playing fetch and sleeping on the couch nine times out of ten?

Personally, I find it reprehensible that someone would do this intentionally.

Well I guess you shouldn't buy one then. I disagree of course.

 

[JennSLK]

A doodle should NEVER become a breed. It is a designer mutt. Nothing more. Mutts should NOT be allowed CKC or AKC regestration, it defies the purpose of the CKC or AKC.

Now I have nothing against mutts, just people PERPOSLY breeding them

 

[keller]

A doodle should NEVER become a breed. It is a designer mutt. Nothing more. Mutts should NOT be allowed CKC or AKC regestration, it defies the purpose of the CKC or AKC.

Now I have nothing against mutts, just people PERPOSLY breeding them

Yes, because all the breeds that are AKC recognized right now were made by nature, and evolved on their own without any human intervention. Oh, except for the fact that that's the complete opposite of what happened. If you take any breed line back far enough, you're going to run into things that look nothing like what we've got today. They're all mutts. Some are just more inbred.

 

[JennSLK]

Yes, I do agree Keller.

HOWEVER. A doodle remains a disgner mutt (yes I cant spell)

At least dogs like the Dobe, were bred and created for a purpose.

Doodles were suposed to be a hypo alergenic seeing eye dog. Fine, let them have their own breeding program. But the next thing you will see is a puggle in the show ring.

If you think about it, how would they be regestered? Would a Reg lab matting with a reg poodle result in a regesterable doodle? Or would it only be doodle to doodle regestrations.

What about the breed standard? As you know with mutts they can look like a pure bred or have weird looks because of the mix. Since doodles are mixes, what would the standard be? More Lab? More poodle? or both?

 

[FoxyWench]

the goldendoodle and labradoodle wont be able to be registered untill the breed true...and they DONT...in a litter of 12 labradoodle puppies (even into 3rd and 4th generations and further (i only know a 4th gen) 1/2 of the puppies were more lab, 1/2 of the puppies were more poodle and of those puppies, 1/2 of all of them had the positive helaht traits of mixing the two to eliminat any health problems the breed has and 1/2 the puppies had the problems of BOTH breeds esentially doubling the health problems (and while the parents are tested, theres some problems that dont show up!)...12 people bought the dogs from this breeder who pushed that the dogs were great for people with alergies and spouted a bunch of other plusses that breeing the 2 dogs together...
the way it worked out, only 1/2 the people got puppies with the hypoalergenic coat of the poodle for their kids with alergies...the other half of the litter (also bought by families with alergies) found their dogs to shed just as much as a regular lab and were forced to part ways with their precious doodle!

untill they breed true EVERY litter...they CANNOT be a breed.

you breed a labradoodle to a labradoodle some of the puppies will be more lab some of the puppies will be more poodle some will be various percentages of each...

they DO NOT yet breed to type and since 99% of all doodles are bred by accident or backyard breeders and puppymills i hope they NEVER become a breed...because once somethings a registerable breed you then get even more of an influx of backyard breeders...look at EVERY purebred in the world...what started off as a project with good intentions ignites the flame of people all over the world breeding thier dogs because its the cool thing to do and they can get pretty big cash for their "desighner breeds"

i cant tell you how many people have told me there mating their pom to a chihuahua because pom-chis are worth more then regular chihauhuas...they have no reguard for the health of the animals or reasercing the genetics...

labradoodles and golden doodles arnt even close in stance or headshape...to create the origional breeds they took LIKE dogs, dogs that looked similar or the same as eachother to create a true breeding type...they would NEVER have taken 2 dogs that look and act as different as a lab like dog and a poodle like dog and just put them together to see what heppend...

GAH this entire argument makes me mad... i have NOTHING against mutts...i do have a problem with people with little to no knoledge of what goes into breeding purposly breeding twi random dogs together giving them a fancy name and charging and arm and a leg for the "privaledge" of owning one...only to find out 6 years down the line that even though both parents were "health tested" your dog now has the health and behavioural problems comon to BOTH breeds, because the person breeding them didnt bother to do the reaserch into all the genetic lines...
or a few weks after getting your lovely labradoodle becuase your kids have alergies and "all labradoodles are hypoalergenic" finding out, now you and your kids are totally attatched to it, it sheds worse than a regular lab and you have to give it up...

score another one for the backyar breeders adding to the population of shelter dogs...

and for the comment about purbreds being in shelters too...yes there are...but look into that dogs past youll find it was bred by a backyard breeder or puppymill or bought at a petstore...why? because absolutly NO ethical breeder will LET their dogs end up in a shelter...
i breed chihuahuas, long haired chihuahuas (im still in brit mindset and only reed long haire to long hair...ie...breeding true to type!) and in my puppy contract...if for whatever reason at whatever age the dog is, if it must be relinqushed for ANY reason it will be given BACK TO ME! NEVER will one of the reulsts of breeding my dogs end up in a shleter if i have any say about it...

and now im done ranting...im gonna go take a breath

 

[keller]

Yes, I do agree Keller.

HOWEVER. A doodle remains a disgner mutt (yes I cant spell)

At least dogs like the Dobe, were bred and created for a purpose.

Doodles were suposed to be a hypo alergenic seeing eye dog. Fine, let them have their own breeding program. But the next thing you will see is a puggle in the show ring.

Okay, and what's so horrible about people making puggles? This is the thing that I don't get. Why are the breeds we have now, more worthy of being a breed than anything we could create today? It really seems like elitism more than anything else.

If you think about it, how would they be regestered? Would a Reg lab matting with a reg poodle result in a regesterable doodle? Or would it only be doodle to doodle regestrations.

What about the breed standard? As you know with mutts they can look like a pure bred or have weird looks because of the mix. Since doodles are mixes, what would the standard be? More Lab? More poodle? or both?

That would be up to the group who decided to make a new breed. Have you read about the evolution of the beagle (using this breed since we both have one)? Pocket beagles, wire haired beagles, short legged and long legged. All steps, to get the dogs we know and love today. Now we're seeing a split between field and show. This is the sequence that you get before some people sit down and decide what traits they want to see. And of course, no group will completely agree, which is why we see a split between North America and Europe sometimes. I personally, do not have any interest in taking part in creating a new breed, so I'm not concerned with how long it takes them to breed true to type etc.

There's no reason to believe that they never will. Also, I don't know what the fact that irresponsible breeders are responsisble for purebred shelter dogs has to do with responsibly creating a mix. Now if you're a person who thinks that you can't ever responsibly make a mix, no matter how careful and caring you are, well we'll have to agree to disagree.

 

[keller]

the goldendoodle and labradoodle wont be able to be registered untill the breed true...and they DONT...in a litter of 12 labradoodle puppies (even into 3rd and 4th generations and further (i only know a 4th gen) 1/2 of the puppies were more lab, 1/2 of the puppies were more poodle and of those puppies, 1/2 of all of them had the positive helaht traits of mixing the two to eliminat any health problems the breed has and 1/2 the puppies had the problems of BOTH breeds esentially doubling the health problems (and while the parents are tested, theres some problems that dont show up!)...12 people bought the dogs from this breeder who pushed that the dogs were great for people with alergies and spouted a bunch of other plusses that breeing the 2 dogs together...

A responsible breeder wouldn't have assumed that all of her dogs would be great for allergy sufferers. Will they ever breed true? I don't know. If they do, how long will it take? I don't know. Will I be overjoyed if doodles become a breed? No. Will I be sad if it doesn't? No. There will always be health problems that won't show up. Purebred or mutt. That's a genetic problem, not a breed thing.

the way it worked out, only 1/2 the people got puppies with the hypoalergenic coat of the poodle for their kids with alergies...the other half of the litter (also bought by families with alergies) found their dogs to shed just as much as a regular lab and were forced to part ways with their precious doodle!

untill they breed true EVERY litter...they CANNOT be a breed.

you breed a labradoodle to a labradoodle some of the puppies will be more lab some of the puppies will be more poodle some will be various percentages of each...

they DO NOT yet breed to type and since 99% of all doodles are bred by accident or backyard breeders and puppymills i hope they NEVER become a breed...because once somethings a registerable breed you then get even more of an influx of backyard breeders...look at EVERY purebred in the world...what started off as a project with good intentions ignites the flame of people all over the world breeding thier dogs because its the cool thing to do and they can get pretty big cash for their "desighner breeds"

i cant tell you how many people have told me there mating their pom to a chihuahua because pom-chis are worth more then regular chihauhuas...they have no reguard for the health of the animals or reasercing the genetics...

It's too bad that people who don't care are creating more shelter dogs. Not every mixed breed creater is responsible though. Just as there are good purebred breeders who aren't responsible for the purebred shelter population.

labradoodles and golden doodles arnt even close in stance or headshape...to create the origional breeds they took LIKE dogs, dogs that looked similar or the same as eachother to create a true breeding type...they would NEVER have taken 2 dogs that look and act as different as a lab like dog and a poodle like dog and just put them together to see what heppend...

We really have no idea what happened when humans were creating the animal known as the dog.

GAH this entire argument makes me mad... i have NOTHING against mutts...i do have a problem with people with little to no knoledge of what goes into breeding purposly breeding twi random dogs together giving them a fancy name and charging and arm and a leg for the "privaledge" of owning one...only to find out 6 years down the line that even though both parents were "health tested" your dog now has the health and behavioural problems comon to BOTH breeds, because the person breeding them didnt bother to do the reaserch into all the genetic lines...

That can happen to people who buy any kind of dog. This is an argument against BYBs, not mixed breed pets. And even the best breeder can have a problem litter. That's genetics for you.

or a few weks after getting your lovely labradoodle becuase your kids have alergies and "all labradoodles are hypoalergenic" finding out, now you and your kids are totally attatched to it, it sheds worse than a regular lab and you have to give it up...

If you have allergies so bad that you'd have to give a dog up, then you really should get something that breeds true now.

score another one for the backyar breeders adding to the population of shelter dogs...

and for the comment about purbreds being in shelters too...yes there are...but look into that dogs past youll find it was bred by a backyard breeder or puppymill or bought at a petstore...why? because absolutly NO ethical breeder will LET their dogs end up in a shelter...
i breed chihuahuas, long haired chihuahuas (im still in brit mindset and only reed long haire to long hair...ie...breeding true to type!) and in my puppy contract...if for whatever reason at whatever age the dog is, if it must be relinqushed for ANY reason it will be given BACK TO ME! NEVER will one of the reulsts of breeding my dogs end up in a shleter if i have any say about it...

Doodle breeders can do everything you've listed except breed true to type right now. And the only reason you can do that, is because someone, a very long time ago, took it upon themselves to dabble in genetics (before there was even a name for such a thing) and create the dog itself, then the precursors of each breed, then the individual breeds we have today.

 

[joce]

If you failed to notice the guide dog group that started the breeding gave it up because it DID NOT WORK! It actually failed miserably. they would put moeny into training the dog and it would turn out no better than a furry lab. Its all a gimmick and you should not buy a dog based on a gimmick.

 

[keller]

If you failed to notice the guide dog group that started the breeding gave it up because it DID NOT WORK! It actually failed miserably. they would put moeny into training the dog and it would turn out no better than a furry lab.

Okay, so how long, in general, does it take to get a mix to breed true? So the Assoc. for the blind abandoned its program. That automatically means that an allergy friendly lab is impossible to create? If you failed to notice, I said that other people have picked up the movement. The seeing eye program was just one of the first.

Its all a gimmick and you should not buy a dog based on a gimmick.

 

[JennSLK]

Okay, and what's so horrible about people making puggles?

The problem is, is that there are enough dogs in the shelters and on the streets with out PERPOSLY creating another mutt. They are a fad. Not to mention who would pay $1200+ for a mix?

Now, dont get me wrong. I love mutts, but the perpose of the CKC/AKC is to preserve and make better the quality of the pure breds. Yes that didnt make sence, but you know what I mean.

Shows are for PURE BREDS, to be judged on the standard. Mutts have no standard, and there fore should NOT be regestered.

 

[keller]

Someone, maybe it was you, made those same points before, and I responded to them in this thread, so I won't type it out again. If people disagree with my points, then okay, but none of us are gaining anything by saying the same stuff in every post.

There's no sense in all of us wasting our time repeating the same thing over and over again for four more pages. If the current discussion is any indication of what's to come, then we're not going to get anywhere with this. When I first responded to this thread, I asked for some facts about the harm that a responsible breeder (you'll find my definition of this in my other posts in this thread) was doing by breeding a mix.

You'll all have to forgive me if I don't respond to your opinions about whether or not I should buy a mixed breed dog, whether or not we should make new breeds, whether they're cute, or a fad, or a gimmick or whether a person can breed mutts without being a byb. I'm not trying to be rude, or ignoring any of you, but I just don't have any interest in going around and around in circles on people's opinions on this subject.

 

[Melissa_W]

Okay, so how long, in general, does it take to get a mix to breed true? So the Assoc. for the blind abandoned its program. That automatically means that an allergy friendly lab is impossible to create? If you failed to notice, I said that other people have picked up the movement. The seeing eye program was just one of the first.

It would take a huge number of generations to develop a true breeding hybrid.

I will use slides from my molecular genetics class to show you what I mean. The slides show true breeding tall and true breeding dwarf pea plants, but it's the exact same idea with dogs. My instructor cited puggles in class as another example.

P1 is the parental generation. So this would be your golden and your poodle.

The F1 generation is your "doodle". The doodle is of an intermediate appearence. But when you cross two doodles in the F2 generation, you get this:

A continuous spectrum of physical characteristics ranging from the extreme case where you have a dog that looks like a golden, to the other extreme where the dog looks like a poodle. And you've got everything in between. Your doodle would be exactly in the center, assuming you were shooting for the intermediate phenotype. I can't even imagine how many years of selective breeding it would take to develop a true breeding intermediate. Maybe one of the breeders on the forum would know. But the point is, it would take quite some time.

 

[amymarley]

Almost everyone here, that knows me, or my stance on breeding, knows, that I don't like any of it. Yes, I know there are good breeders out there... so to those of you, please don't take this personally.

Bottom line....for the most part, there are way too may dogs/cats etc...out there, over 7 million getting put down each year, purebreeds (yes, from breeders) and others...

My hope, my stance, is to stop it ALL and then when dogs/cats are stopped getting injected....killed, is when to start the population again. I have seen/spoke to many breeders here and other places, but they still breed. It is their right.... although I don't agree, it IS THEIR RIGHT. The bottom line is, most people who really care about dogs, post here, the OTHERS....we will never get through too.

 

[keller]

Melissa_W, thanks for posting that. I'm very familiar with genetics (no specific knowledge for dogs, but I understand the subject, and evolution well) so I know that such a thing would take quite awhile, and many generations. This was what I wanted to get across to the person who wanted to label the program a failure when the movement is still new (from a genetic standpoint).

animalbiz, at least you're consistent.

 

[B33CPE]

The reason i have a problem with this is because the people breeding doodle dogs arent trying to make a new breed, all they want is to make some money. I cant believe that the public is so brainwashed that they would pay such large ammounts of money to buy a mutt, seriously there is already enough breeds of dogs anyway, hundreds, there is one to suit everybodys needs. Another thing that bothers me is its a trend or a fad, there is no carefull planning or genetic research going on, these are people who will breed their poodle with any other breed of dog just so they can call it a doodle, and apparently
Doodle= $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$

However, i am totally about "for the love of the purebred dog" , Dont get me wrong i love mutts too, i have one in fact.

I talked to my inlaws again last night and they said something about breeding their lab to a poodle in May-June, oooohh it makes me mad. But im in no place to tell them what to do, and they are the type of people who think they know everything. This really makes me mad because their lab is the daughter to my old male lab i had, he died of old age last year. He was very well bred, had champions and field winners in his pedigree, and was very beautiful and had a calm temperment, and all his daughters turned out like him, now they want to degrade his gene pool by throwing any old poodle in. ugh. Just because they think they will sell for 1200.00 and "oooh they're so cute."

I know that nothing i say is going to change anyones mind about buying one of these dogs, you either get it or you dont. I am not trying to start an argument, just venting.

Thanks to all the responsible breeders.

 

[shepluvr]

sorry boo boo

 

[shepluvr]

...and what do we and the dogs lose when someone makes a doodle litter instead, after having tested the parents, interviewed homes, offered health contracts that give refunds on dogs with genetic problems, take back the dogs that they've bred with no questions asked etc?

The stark reality of it is that the vast majority who are breeding these litters are NOT doing that. They are in it for the money. It really saddens me to see the public falling for this fad. They are buying these mix breeds for assinine amounts of money, when the same breed types are dying in shelters across the country.

A person who places their dogs into the best homes, and will take them back if they lose that home has not added any dogs to the local shelter.

That is true except for the fact that it takes away a home for a dog in a shelter.
This fad didn't necessarily start out with the program by the seeing eye either. It came from accidental breedings, who the people who owned the dogs came up with a cute name to make them sound more legit and to justify charging money for it because they were making a "new breed". It was happening many years ago in puppymills across the country.

There was one breeder I know of who bred pekes and shihtzus. She never kept her dogs confined. When they had a litter, she just looked at the pups and if they looked like pekes, they were called pekes. If they looked like shih tzus, she called them shih tzus. If they looked like a mix of both..BOOM! They were shih pekes! and they sold for more than the supposed purebred ones!

 

[keller]

The stark reality of it is that the vast majority who are breeding these litters are NOT doing that. They are in it for the money. It really saddens me to see the public falling for this fad. They are buying these mix breeds for assinine amounts of money, when the same breed types are dying in shelters across the country.

The fact that there are so many shelter dogs (pure and mixed) makes me feel quite comforatable believing that the majority of breeders breeding ANY kind of litter aren't doing that. Folks who take responsibility for the dogs they breed (pure or mixed) are the exception to the rule. There are purebreds dying in shelters too. Should we take animalbiz's advice and halt breeding all together for awhile?

That is true except for the fact that it takes away a home for a dog in a shelter.
This fad didn't necessarily start out with the program by the seeing eye either. It came from accidental breedings, who the people who owned the dogs came up with a cute name to make them sound more legit and to justify charging money for it because they were making a "new breed". It was happening many years ago in puppymills across the country.

The seeing eye program was one of the first movements to start a program with a specific purpose that got the ball rolling. Just because someone is willing to give a home to a new puppy from a breeder doesn't mean that they would also take a shelter dog. I feel for the animals that are dying in the shelter, but at this point in time, my home is only open to certain animals. It's that way for a lot of people. Every purebred litter born takes away a home for a purebred shelter dog too. Do you agree with animalbiz, or is it okay to make more purebreds?

Really, if we want to keep going with this kind of thought process (I'll admit that this is stretching it really far), shouldn't people stop having kids and take in the ones that need homes? Every planned child who is born, is taking away a home that could go to a foster child. Or maybe people should be trusted to make their own choices about the people, and pets that will be part of their family, and the rest of us should stop assuming that we know better, and that they've been duped.