Very curious to hear some opinions on this

[CharlieDog]

I liked your posts Dekka, I hope so anyway

 

[CharlieDog]

This one though, takes the cake for foolhardiness. WTF.

YouTube - recall at the park event

 

[~Tucker&Me~]

The agility one bothered me *so* much because of the stress that course must put on their bodies. Those were HUGE jumps, really close together... Even the lab, who was enjoying it... I cringed seeing him go over all those jumps. I can't imagine the stress on his spine and joints. And puppies and overweight dogs and using leashes...? The whole thing. Oh and that teeter. Broke my heart watching them drag that dobe up there. I wanted so badly to appear there without those people and a clicker and show him that training could be fun

 

[corgipower]

This one though, takes the cake for foolhardiness. WTF.

YouTube - recall at the park event

Yeah, but youtube lists this as "related" to that one:

:rofl1:opcorn::rofl1:opcorn:

 

[Danefied]

Do enough luring and enough heavy reinforcement of a default behavior and the dogs don't think for themselves either...without the fallout.

LOL - point taken.

Still though, the one type of training creates dogs who will hold a stay even with a mac truck coming at them and will let themselves get plastered. A "thinking" dog knows to get the heck out of the way of the mac truck stay or no stay. Suzanne Clothier talks about that in her "Justifying the ear pinch" article.

Let's take an absurd example: The handler of a force trained dog throws the dumbbell, gives the command to retrieve, and as the dog takes off, the handler is attacked by a crazed spectator or another dog. Does the dog retrieve? Maybe, maybe not. Depends on the dog, doesn't it? (Hard core force trainers may be muttering, "You could proof for that. You'd just need some assistants...")

This guy, the MR wannabe is actually on another forum, and his line is "show me the dog". And he has gone so far as to say that he has yet to see a dog as well trained as his (the harl in the video), and until he does, he will continue using these methods.

So the obvious answer is - look at dogs like Dekka from here, like Kaine (Hunkey Monkey Kaine), like Jesse, like kikopup's Splash, like Skidboot (anyone remember him?) - these are dogs who IMNSHO are eons "better", who have a repertoire of a command or two other than sits and downs at a distance.

But no... "trick trained" dogs (whatever that means) don't count. You have to show off leash control. Okay, done. No... you have to show off leash control with distractions. Okay done. No... you have to show more distracting distractions. Okaaayyy... Well, that depends on the dog doesn't it? I have great danes, what they consider distracting is a tad different than what a terrier might consider distracting. My mutt dog is more likely to break a stay for pets from a stranger than a cat darting under his nose. (Stand for inspection is a challenge for him because you're not supposed to try and lick and snuggle the judge. Makes him a great therapy dog, not so great obedience dog.)

It becomes an impossible conversation of "yeah but." Much as I would love to set up a scenario where two trainers each take on a dog and teach the dogs a series of commands using their own methods, whoever loses will always find an excuse.

But the bottom line is, and what deep down really bothers this type of trainer, and why they post pages of anti-treat training, anti-clicker training on their websites. The TRUTH is, that there are no more excuses for relying on fear and pain to train your dog.

And when you can't get a dog to down without "wrestling them all over the yard" you need to start using your brain to think instead of the danglies
YouTube - How I taught RD to "Down"

Which circles back to Dekka's "At what point is training abuse" thread. I would argue that given that you can achieve the same (often better) results of reliability, off leash control, diversity of commands, AND bond with the human, withOUT using fear or pain, then there is no reason for causing either to your dog.
Granted, I would not want to see something like that legislated because of the slippery slope it creates, but the spirit remains the same.