US Voters, Super Tuesday Predictions.

Herschel

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#41
All right Hersh, since you asked :D....

Evil isn't really the right word. I just used "evil" because that's the word that Hersch used, and I wanted to use the same language to help make my point.

I honestly don't think any of the candidates are evil. But I don't think that Ron Paul is any better than the rest of them. Different stance? Yes. But "better"? No. They're probably all good people.

And I also think it's very extremist for MC to say "If you're a real American, vote for Ron Paul!" One candidate does NOT a nation make. Nor does one candidate embody all American ideals.

Our constitution is so flexible and open to interpretation (as the forefathers intended), that every single candidate, no matter how different their views, probably believes themselves to do right by it.

By the same token, I also believe that one candidate will not bring about the "revolution". That's part of the reason why there is such a system of checks in balances in the constitution. Our founding fathers had their fill of giving one person too much power. So the constitution makes it very difficult, if not impossible, for one person to generate tremendous, lasting change in our country.

If there is a "revolution", it must include Congress and the judicial system, too. And it will take years. Maybe even decades, if you consider that Supreme Court judges serve for life.

And honestly, that's why I'm more interested in congressional elections than presidential elections. I believe that change begins with Congress, not the president.

*gets off soapbox*

And one other thing....South Park has some very good social and political satire in it. If you haven't seen it, I suggest it.
The interpretation of the Constitution has gotten out of hand. I'm not a political fanatic, I don't consider myself right wing, but Ron Paul has some points:

-It really doesn't make sense for the Federal government to try to control every single school in America. Just saying that sounds like a line from "V for Vendetta" or something. Yet, look at the amazing failure of No Child Left Behind. (By the way, what a creepy name for a program. Sounds really Orwellian.)

-Think of all of the government programs that our taxes go towards. Do you support every single one of them? If so, why should you pay for something that you don't support? "The government" basically says, "We want to do this....and we want you to pay for it. If you object, we will arrest you." It's a bit heavy-handed and these orders shouldn't come from the executive branch. Legislators are supposed to represent their constituents, but that doesn't really happen anymore.

-Why is the executive branch of our government coming up with reasons to go to war? People are concerned with the fact that the Bush administration lied, they were wrong about WMDs, all sorts of things. The actual problem is that GW and the crew created some evidence and had to justify the war to the country. We're forgetting that national security shouldn't hinge on the White House. Congress, based on intelligence from the FBI/CIA/etc. should create a resolution and vote on it appropriately. The Commander-In-Chief then has the authorization to control the military. War should NOT be sought out by the Executive branch.

-Why in the world does our Federal government care about our personal choices and beliefs? Banning (or amending the Constitution to approve) gay marriage is the first step. What's next? Our choices for dinner? Citizens of this country are citizens, whether they are gay, black, white, etc. It shouldn't even be a debate.

-If hundreds of millions of people in the country are pro-choice, and hundreds of millions are pro-life, why should the Federal government make a law regarding abortion? Either way, a lot of the Constituents (remember the derivation of that word) are being imposed upon and morally offended. It seems like something that should be decided on the state or the local level.

-The fact that people are so offended by the abortion issue that they ask their Federal government to intervene speaks volumes about the state of our country. Why in the world should people ask their Federal government to enforce their personal religious beliefs? If you think about that question, it kind of explains the reason that our Presidential candidates are so terrible.

Like you said, one candidate can't embody "American ideals." I like the candidate that admits that. Ron Paul has repeatedly said that he doesn't want to run our lives, he doesn't want to run the economy. He wants the Federal government to do its job--and that is ensure the freedom and prosperity of United States citizens.
 

MelissaCato

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#42
And I don't think that Ron Paul is any better than the rest of them. Different stance? Yes. But "better"? No
Why does America have to always look stupid ? it's because of people like you who don't care or give a **** about her. Do you know what country your in ? Carefull naw the whole world is watching. :rolleyes:

I also think it's very extremist for MC to say "If you're a real American, vote for Ron Paul!
Truth hurts doesn't it ?

By the same token, I also believe that one candidate will not bring about the "revolution".
Too late my friend. America is rising. The whole world knows it. :D

Our constitution is so flexible and open to interpretation (as the forefathers intended), that every single candidate, no matter how different their views, probably believes themselves to do right by it.
This is a bloody lie. Blaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa !!

How dare you even insult the founding fathers advise with this crap and even link them to democracy ?

**PUKE**
 

Laurelin

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#44
I'd just like to say that MelissaCato, you really are a turn off for your own argument.

Keep up the good fight I suppose...:rolleyes:
 

Zoom

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#45
What version of American history did you take? The Consitution IS NOT an iron-clad document. The FF had enough foresight to know that what was written that day could not be expected to directly apply a hundred years from then, or two hundred...it's a LIVING document, thus it is flexible and open to interpreation. They certainly didn't write in Women's Right To Vote in the original document, did they? Yet you have the opportunity available to you BECAUSE THE CONSTITUTION IS FLEXIBLE. OMG!

So "clean up on Aisle 5".
 

MelissaCato

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#47
SSI History

Ok, I'm bored. Just in case some of you young whippersnappers (& some older ones) didn't know this. It's easy to check out if you don't believe me... and it doesn't matter whether you are Democrat of Republican. Facts are Facts!!!

Franklin Roosevelt, a Democrat, introduced the Social Security (FICA) Program. This is what he promised:

~That participation in the Program would be completely voluntary.
~That the participants would only have to pay 1% of the first $1,400 of their annual Incomes into the Program.
~That the money the participants elected to put into the Program would be deductible from their income for tax purposes each year.
~That the money the participants put into the Independent "Trust Fund" rather than into the General operating fund, and therefore, would
only be used to fund the Social Security Retirement Program, and no other
Government program.
~That the annuity payments to the retirees would never be taxed as income.

Since many of us have or do pay into FICA for years and are now receiving a Social Security check every month ~
And then finding that we (not me but the people who are) are getting taxed on 85% of the money we paid to the Federal government to "put away" ... you may be interested in the following:

Which Political Party took Social Security from the Independent "Trust Fund" and put it into the General fund so that Congress could spend it? Hummmm ?

Lyndon Johnson did and the democratically Controlled House and Senate. Fact.

Which Political Party eliminated the income tax deduction for Social Security (FICA) withholding? Hummmm ?

Democratic Party. Fact.

Which Political Party started taxing Social Security annuities? Hummmm ?

The Democratic Party, with Al Gore casting the "tie-breaking" deciding vote as President of the Senate, while he was Vice President of the US. Fact.

Which Political Party decided to start giving Annuity payments to immigrants? Hummmm ?

That's right!
Jimmy Carter and the Democratic Party. Immigrants moved into this country, and at age 65, Began to receive Social Security payments! The Democratic Party gave these payments to them, Even though they never paid a dime into it! Fact.

I figured SSI would be of interest, because we all know it's messed up.

:rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes:
 

MelissaCato

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#48
Also, after violating the original contract (FICA), the Democrats turn around and tell you that the Republicans want to take your Social Security away!

Typical turnspeak !

AND CONGRESS GIVES THEMSELVES 100% RETIREMENT FOR ONLY SERVING ONE TERM!!!
A government big enough to give you everything you want, is strong enough to take everything you have.
-Thomas Jefferson
 

sparks19

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#50
LOL MC.... You are an idiot.

You... who hasn't EVER voted before are telling people THEY are stupid and wasting their votes because they aren't voting for Ron Paul? the first time you ever vote... and you have the nerve to tell people who they should be voting for and what they should be doing?

perhaps all those who don't vote for Ron Paul should be convicted of Treason.... :O

Do the USA a favor and "never miss a good chance to shut up" because you certainly aren't doing this nation any favors. You are such a bad example of this countries people and you are a bad example for Ron Paul himself. Actually it's kind of funny.... you are up in arms about the enemy extremists... yet you ARE an extremist.

I think your brand of campaigning is an embarassment to Ron Paul.

I'm just glad that those on this forum are seeing right through you. It would scare me if anyone were to vote for RP based on your spewings.

but of course you will come back with your usual "you're funny" or "I don't understand you". Perhaps I am speaking to quickly for you... shall we all just slow down for you?
 

smkie

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#51
all i know is i know nothing...about most of this so i look to people that i think know more then i do. I bet i am not the only one that does that either. I listen to the clay class on tuesday night talk and there have been some good debates. I don't pretend to understand a lot of the politics, and i figure that 2/3's of what i hear is a lie. sigh Not that that has anything to do with the arguements flying through the air,but i have to wonder how many other people base their votes the same way.
 

Gempress

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#52
The Constitution wasnt intended to be flexable, it was set up to be amendable.
I do see where blue is coming from on this one. Looking back, "flexible" was probably a poor choice of words on my part.

There are definately basic precepts that are firmly set in stone. But there are also implied rights and nuances that are open to interpretation---hence the judicial system's job of deciding on those interpretations (such as whether a law is constitutional or not).

I guess the proper term for the constitution might be "fluid" or "adaptable"? I dunno. Darn it, I know what I'm thinking, but I don't know the exact word.
 

MelissaCato

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#53
The Constitution wasnt intended to be flexable, it was set up to be amendable.
The Constitution in fact only gives 7 discrete powers to congress. All the rest are for reserved for individuals like you and me. Think Constitutional Republic. :rolleyes:
In fact only two thirds of Congress and three quarters of the states can ammend that "goddamned piece of paper".
 

Herschel

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#54
I do see where blue is coming from on this one. Looking back, "flexible" was probably a poor choice of words on my part.

There are definately basic precepts that are firmly set in stone. But there are also implied rights and nuances that are open to interpretation---hence the judicial system's job of deciding on those interpretations (such as whether a law is constitutional or not).

I guess the proper term for the constitution might be "fluid" or "adaptable"? I dunno. Darn it, I know what I'm thinking, but I don't know the exact word.
Blue said it. Amendable.
 

Gempress

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#55
Blue said it. Amendable.
No, I'm not thinking "amendable". What I'm thinking has nothing to do with amendments.

For example, I'm thinking of all the times there are legal battles over a law being "constitutional" without even bringing in the possibility of amendment---all the legal arguments over language, wording and letter of the law.

Gah. I guess I'm not quite glib enough today.
 

Gempress

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#56
Ok Hersch, I'm getting back to your post now. :)

The interpretation of the Constitution has gotten out of hand. I'm not a political fanatic, I don't consider myself right wing, but Ron Paul has some points:

-It really doesn't make sense for the Federal government to try to control every single school in America. Just saying that sounds like a line from "V for Vendetta" or something. Yet, look at the amazing failure of No Child Left Behind. (By the way, what a creepy name for a program. Sounds really Orwellian.)
I admit, I don't follow education politics at all. I can't comment on this.

-Think of all of the government programs that our taxes go towards. Do you support every single one of them? If so, why should you pay for something that you don't support? "The government" basically says, "We want to do this....and we want you to pay for it. If you object, we will arrest you." It's a bit heavy-handed and these orders shouldn't come from the executive branch. Legislators are supposed to represent their constituents, but that doesn't really happen anymore.
No, I don't support every single program. But I have no problems with my taxes going to support them all. I think it would be a huge mess if they allowed people to only pay for what they support. I'm fine with the way my taxes are dispersed right now.

Say you don't like Welfare. You think it's an awful program that people just leech off of. So you don't support it. Then, a decade or so later, you have horrible change of luck and end up seriously needing Welfare. So now what? Are you not eligible for it because you didn't support it? Or do you suddenly fill out the forms so you can support Welfare, and then take your share. Even though you haven't been paying for it all this time?

And how far should this go? If we go to a war that you don't agree with, do you stop funding the military? Right now, quite a few Americans seem to disagree with the war in Iraq. I think the military would be in a sorry mess if they all had the right to withdraw their tax funding.

Then there's the human factor. We as people are stingy enough to say, "Oh, you don't wanna pay for my program? Then fine. I'll withdraw my tax support from your program, too!"

-Why is the executive branch of our government coming up with reasons to go to war? People are concerned with the fact that the Bush administration lied, they were wrong about WMDs, all sorts of things. The actual problem is that GW and the crew created some evidence and had to justify the war to the country. We're forgetting that national security shouldn't hinge on the White House. Congress, based on intelligence from the FBI/CIA/etc. should create a resolution and vote on it appropriately. The Commander-In-Chief then has the authorization to control the military. War should NOT be sought out by the Executive branch.
Couldn't agree more.

-Why in the world does our Federal government care about our personal choices and beliefs? Banning (or amending the Constitution to approve) gay marriage is the first step. What's next? Our choices for dinner? Citizens of this country are citizens, whether they are gay, black, white, etc. It shouldn't even be a debate.

If hundreds of millions of people in the country are pro-choice, and hundreds of millions are pro-life, why should the Federal government make a law regarding abortion? Either way, a lot of the Constituents (remember the derivation of that word) are being imposed upon and morally offended. It seems like something that should be decided on the state or the local level.

The fact that people are so offended by the abortion issue that they ask their Federal government to intervene speaks volumes about the state of our country. Why in the world should people ask their Federal government to enforce their personal religious beliefs? If you think about that question, it kind of explains the reason that our Presidential candidates are so terrible.
My feelings on all these are the same. It's all about the votes. These issues draw a deep, personal response from the voters. If a politician says "I approve House Bill 232352634 about this obscure political issue," voters are more likely to be apathetic. It doesn't arouse their passion.

But if that same politician says, "I will absolutely vote NO to abortion!", it will certainly bring people off their seats.

As for people asking the Federal government to enforce their beliefs....*sigh* I can't blame the government on that one. That's all the fault of the individual Americans who firmly believe that *they* are in the right. And after getting swamped with calls from their constituents to make such laws (or go against them), can we really blame the politicians for doing so?

Like you said, one candidate can't embody "American ideals." I like the candidate that admits that. Ron Paul has repeatedly said that he doesn't want to run our lives, he doesn't want to run the economy. He wants the Federal government to do its job--and that is ensure the freedom and prosperity of United States citizens.
See, that's the kicker for me. It doesn't impress me at all. How do we do that? The Iraq war, Arctic drilling, environmental protection laws, Welfare programs, the Patriot Act....basically every single government action in the United States was started with that exact same intention.

For example, say Ron Paul stays out of economy completely. Sounds nice. But what if there's a huge market crash? Is he ensuring the prosperity of the United States by letting things plummet? What would he do in that instance?

Phew! I think that's the most politics I've talked in one day! ;)
 

MelissaCato

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#57
For example, say Ron Paul stays out of economy completely. Sounds nice. But what if there's a huge market crash? Is he ensuring the prosperity of the United States by letting things plummet? What would he do in that instance?
I'm bored again. People often say if its as screwed up as some people say what the hell can we do ? Well we could put this man in office. It's ganna take some of you democrats swallowing your pride and voting for a republican. But worry not this man is no modern neocon. This man is what a Republican used to be and should be. Or maybe what one that isnt bought and paid for sounds like.
What is inflation ? "Inflation is not rising prices, it is the loss of purchasing-power of the paper money, because of the inflated amount of paper being printed and added to economy" ... Go find a 1950's or older dictionary. That *was* the definition... but in most modern dictionaries it has in fact changed by definition to benefit the elite powers. The inflation is caused by the constant influx of newly created "money" via credit, devaluing every pre-existing dollar in circulation. That's why our dollar is worth a whole .04 cents today. :rolleyes:
What pisses me off is if you read House Joint Resolution 192, it states all our gold is gone as of 1933. It was swindled from the american people in the great depression, which was intentional. Milton Hershey warned Pennsylvania about this, MH took all his money out of the banks and established Hershey Chocolates and the great Hotel Hershey during this depression. He knew his money wouldn't be backed by gold. Fact. :yikes: Maybe that's why our gold hasn't been audited 60 years ?????? What's up with that ??

"If the American people ever allow private banks to control the issuance of their currency, first by inflation and then by deflation, the banks and corporations that will grow up around them will deprive the people of all their property until their children will wake up homeless on the continent their fathers conquered." Thomas Jefferson..
Mr. Chairman, we have in this Country one of the most corrupt institutions the world has ever known. I refer to the Federal Reserve Board and the Federal Reserve Banks, hereinafter called the Fed.The Fed has cheated the Government of these United States and the people of the United States out of enough money to pay the Nation's debt.-- Congressman McFadden 1934
I did some math too. If Ron Paul is elected for 2008 ... America can repay all her debts in less than 2 years. 2 years people. :D

... I think some people are afraid of Liberty now that I think about it and read these posts, they can't imagine a world without big government. They've been brainwashed. :rolleyes:
 

Herschel

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#59
Ok Hersch, I'm getting back to your post now. :)

No, I don't support every single program. But I have no problems with my taxes going to support them all. I think it would be a huge mess if they allowed people to only pay for what they support. I'm fine with the way my taxes are dispersed right now.
This raises the larger issue of whether the Federal government is best equipped to run a program like Welfare. States, or even private corporations, could better serve the same purpose. Organizations like Mercy Corps efficiently (less than 10% administrative costs) support sustainable development all over the world--why couldn't we open up the United States to them?

And how far should this go? If we go to a war that you don't agree with, do you stop funding the military? Right now, quite a few Americans seem to disagree with the war in Iraq. I think the military would be in a sorry mess if they all had the right to withdraw their tax funding.
We need to stop that war immediately. Why should you be forced to have your money fund an illegal war, that has admittedly been waged over oil?

As for people asking the Federal government to enforce their beliefs....*sigh* I can't blame the government on that one. That's all the fault of the individual Americans who firmly believe that *they* are in the right. And after getting swamped with calls from their constituents to make such laws (or go against them), can we really blame the politicians for doing so?
It is learned helplessness. It is mostly the fault of the American people for asking such things from their Federal government, but the politicians are to blame for pandering to special interests.

For example, say Ron Paul stays out of economy completely. Sounds nice. But what if there's a huge market crash? Is he ensuring the prosperity of the United States by letting things plummet? What would he do in that instance?
Technically, we already are in a huge market crash and we have been in one for a while. Lowering interest rates (printing more money) is NOT the solution. It just further devalues our currency and gives people more buying power to buy things that they can't afford. If we had a sound fiscal policy in the first place then we wouldn't have to worry about recessions and crashes. He discusses his remedy for our current situation on his website:

The Comprehensive Economic Revitalization Plan
http://www.ronpaul2008.com/Prosperity/
 

MelissaCato

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#60
You have two choices. And this IS a dummy FACT.

Vote Democrat (Anti War) and sell our country.

OR

Vote Republican (Anti War) and restore her Republic.

It's that simple for 2008. No BS.

I just wonder if this wasn't planned all along ? Or is Ron Paul a blessing ?
 

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