To Dock Or Not To Dock

[Charliesmommy]

Yes, it's been a while since I've had a good bitch slap

 

[Buddy'sParents]

We've had this discussion many times there is no reason why we can not have it now.. as long as people can remain mature about it. And, there is nothing wrong with any opinion regarding cropping and docking and for those that do it and feel comfortable, there is no reason to get so defensive and turn what can be a great converstaion into a rolling eye and insult fest.

I believe natural does refer to an undocked, uncropped dog of a certain breed? When someone says natural, I think ears and tail. I don't know who would refer to a cropped and docked dog as natural. Traditional, sure, but not natural.

Cropping and docking may be for aesthetic reasons, and it may be considered selfish, but then why wouldn't selectively breeding dogs to suit our needs and wants not also be selfish? Technically, floppy ears aren't "natural." We bred for them.

That is why I said "natural." So many say it's natural for a dobe, rottie, what have you to have the cropped/docked whatever look.. it's all about semantics.

And breeding selective dogs is also a selfish act. But how far will one go to have something that is aesthetically pleasing?

With that said, and as I said before, to each their own. I plan on sometime owning a dog that is traditionally cropped, but will not -nor can I ever- see myself cropping/docking an animal of mine when it is not medically necessary. That's my perogative as is someone else's to phsyically alter their dog for aesthetic purposes if they see fit.

Carry on now.

 

[Charliesmommy]

I don't think it specifies if it is in regard to adults or puppies.

 

[Doberluv]

Technically, floppy ears aren't "natural." We bred for them.

Actually, technically, they very most likely occurred naturally during evolution. As the group of wolves that were tolerant enough of humans to scavenge around human settlements got tamer and tamer, the ears became floppy. There is a link on the gene for tameness which also causes floppy ears, among other physical characteristics. It was referred to by Charles Darwin as the mysterious characteristics. (or something like that) It has been demonstated over a 40 year wild fox study by a Russian scientist, Dimitri Belaev. In evolution along with tameness and domestication, comes floppy ears, curled tails, white in the fur and a marked difference in brain chemistry...higher seretonin etc. That chemistry and genes linked to that chemistry causes these physical characteristics.

And that's all I have to say off of the subject.

 

[Buddy'sParents]

Interesting, Carrie!

 

[RD]

I DO think spaying/neutering is comparable to cropping. It's a medical procedure that requires some downtime for the dog to recover. I can't really compare it to docking because docking a newborn pup is a pretty low-key procedure.

I know, people will go on and on about the medical benefits of spay/neuter but it's really for one thing only - to make owning a dog easier. Yes, it helps control overpopulation but diligent owners can help control overpopulation too, without cutting open their dogs. Neutering isn't necessary, and I think most people do it for THEIR benefit as opposed to the dog's. It's really not that different from cropping, the way I see it. It's not natural.

And while we're on the subject of "natural", keep in mind that there is very little that is "natural" about purebred domestic dogs. As Herschel said, we're playing God when we breed these dogs to suit our fancies. Using the argument that undocked dogs are how nature intended them to be is rather silly IMO, because nature has virtually nothing to do with breeding these dogs. A Bulldog isn't cropped or docked, but is this really "natural"?

I'm not fond of ear cropping (on the fence about docking) but I will stand up for the rights of breeders to crop and dock their puppies.

 

[J's crew]

I DO think spaying/neutering is comparable to cropping. It's a medical procedure that requires some downtime for the dog to recover. I can't really compare it to docking because docking a newborn pup is a pretty low-key procedure.

I know, people will go on and on about the medical benefits of spay/neuter but it's really for one thing only - to make owning a dog easier. Yes, it helps control overpopulation but diligent owners can help control overpopulation too, without cutting open their dogs. Neutering isn't necessary, and I think most people do it for THEIR benefit as opposed to the dog's. It's really not that different from cropping, the way I see it. It's not natural.

:hail:

 

[Denaluvscorgis]

Great Danes have long, thin, constantly wagging tails...but they're not docked.

And to say you wouldn't own a breed of dog you love if it had a tail is a bit harsh. I'd question how much you actually like that dog breed if that's what matters to you. Tail or not, it's still the same dog.

Real working dogs (ie: dogs who are actually doing the job they were bred to do) should be exempt from docking bans IMO.

Cass.

I agree with Cass. I have a PWC...if she were truly working dog" than she would need to have her tail docked. She isn't, so I feel that it was done for cosmetics. She's a pet...we will never show her. This is only my opinion though...for what thats worth.

 

[Sapphire-Light]

First of all, its called DOCKING not ducking...

And since I live in the US, the only standard I care to follow is what the American Kennel Club has for the Rottweiler breed.

4 weeks is too late IMO and I would never dOck a puppy at that age.

O man! a typo XD

I agree if they are goin to dock is better to do at very few days of birth.

You see like 11 years ago we got a Boxer puppy, he was like 4-5 months old, He had a tail cut like the show dogs but when my bro take him to the vetenarian the vet insisted that the tail was too long and my bro came to the house wit the dog and his "new" more doked tail.
(My bro didn't knew about not croping a tail at that age)

and sadly the dog suffered, he stared to bite his tail to the point of his blood stared to came fron it, and it was many we saw ponds of blood anywhere in the floor, it was horrible to see that. andThe healing was very slow.

That's the main reason I'm not 100% pro docking and ear cropping.

Sadly too 3 years later he got stolen >->

 

[J's crew]

O man! a typo XD

I agree if they are goin to dock is better to do at very few days of birth.

You see like 11 years ago we got a Boxer puppy, he was like 4-5 months old, He had a tail cut like the show dogs but when my bro take him to the vetenarian the vet insisted that the tail was too long and my bro came to the house wit the dog and his "new" more doked tail.
(My bro didn't knew about not croping a tail at that age)

and sadly the dog suffered, he stared to bite his tail to the point of his blood stared to came fron it, and it was many we saw ponds of blood anywhere in the floor, it was horrible to see that. andThe healing was very slow.

That's the main reason I'm not 100% pro docking and ear cropping.

Sadly too 3 years later he got stolen >->

But see most people that are pro docking are 100% against docking when it becomes an amputation.

 

[Sapphire-Light]

An interesting point was brought up to me regarding rottie tails (since we are on the subject) and that is, since rotties have been docked for so long, now that we are seeing tailed rotties we are also seeing a varyance in type of tail. The tail was the "forgotten" part since it was always cut off before anybody could tell what it would become. Any thoughts on this?

I'm not shure, but looks like when they altered the FCI standar the germans did the tail info on how the mayority of non docked tails looked like.

That is why I think it will be good if all the standars (FCI and AKC) of breeds that have docking or (and) ear cropping should had the info on the natural ears and tail even if in some clubs is a fault to non crop.

If the boxer standar didn't mention how uncropped ears looked like, the thing is breeders will bred the short eared dogs we comonly see like the ones of BYB and puppy millers that have ears so small like a bulldog and the only way to crop this type of ears is making a pittbull type ear cut.

But see most people that are pro docking are 100% against docking when it becomes an amputation.

Isen't an amputation too when the puppy is too young? even if say the puppy at that age dosen't fell something?

As long if tons of blood came off the tail and the puppy dosen't suffer is better to do it at that age for me.

 

[Cassiepeia]

Yes, it helps control overpopulation but diligent owners can help control overpopulation too, without cutting open their dogs.

The problem with this is that the majority of the population of the world isn't responsible enough to own an intact dog and keep it from having pups. I think that's pretty evident in the number of 'oops' litters there are every year. People just don't care, so spay/neutering is exremely important for that (sadly HUGE) section of the population.
I see your point, but since we don't live in a world full of responsible people I don't think you can compare the two (cropping & spay/neutering).

Cass.

 

[doberkim]

Im sure they wouldn't encourage docking/cropping because when a working dog gets its tail sliced open more $$ for them Or wait, arent they supporters of PETA?... would make sence.

*rolls eyes back in head til she can see her brain*

Oh lord, so now because the AVMA came out against cropping and docking (a procedure not included in the majority of vet school curriculums now, and a procedure that the vast majority of vets do NOT agree with, from anecdotal evidence as well as unofficial polling), they are PETA supporters?

You know, for however radical you want to make them sound, you come off as just as crazy and radical as they are when you make inane statements like this. If you want to debate, then debate rationally, but going off and accusing anyone who disagrees with you as being a PETA supporter is just ridiculous.

The fact remains, many vets today do not WANT to do docking or cropping, whether or not it is legal. And I do not agree that ANYONE should be doing this without a licensed professional performing the procedure. I do tails and dewclaws, but I do NOT crop ears. That is my personal decision - my decision has nothing to do with whether or not I am a PETA supporter (which I am not). It is a personal decision that I made for myself, for a VARIETY of reasons.

 

[savethebulliedbreeds]

Thanks everyone.

I will say this though. I am still against cropping and docking if it is done purely for esthetics. I see absolutely no need. I say this for show dogs as well. I can understand that "the breed standard says", but I still am having a hard time understanding why the breed standard still says this. If the majority of dogs are not being used for working etc, why do they NEED to be docked.

Personally I think that if there is no necessity for it (working purposes) then it should not be done. That is my personal opinion.

Again thanks everyone for debating this. I appreciate it.

 

[savethebulliedbreeds]

To add a long, heavy tail to the structure described in the standards would change the center of gravity, moving it towards the rear of the dog. This would lessen the Rottweiler's ability as an endurance trotter, unless the croup we desire today changes. Mechanically and kinematically speaking, it must be lengthened and rounded if the desired tail carriage is down to facilitate the mechanics of trotting tirelessly for a long time. Likewise, if the desired carriage is curled tightly over the back, a short croup would be necessary. The Greater Swiss Mountain Dog and Bernese Mountain Dog breed standards, the Rottweiler's closest relatives, call for a long, rounded croup. Alternatively, the Akita, who is also a broad dog, has a very short croup.

Now if someone would have explained this to me I would have understood lol

 

[Sunnierhawk0]

Oh lord, so now because the AVMA came out against cropping and docking (a procedure not included in the majority of vet school curriculums now, and a procedure that the vast majority of vets do NOT agree with, from anecdotal evidence as well as unofficial polling), they are PETA supporters?

You know, for however radical you want to make them sound, you come off as just as crazy and radical as they are when you make inane statements like this. If you want to debate, then debate rationally, but going off and accusing anyone who disagrees with you as being a PETA supporter is just ridiculous.

The fact remains, many vets today do not WANT to do docking or cropping, whether or not it is legal. And I do not agree that ANYONE should be doing this without a licensed professional performing the procedure. I do tails and dewclaws, but I do NOT crop ears. That is my personal decision - my decision has nothing to do with whether or not I am a PETA supporter (which I am not). It is a personal decision that I made for myself, for a VARIETY of reasons.

Thanks for putting words in my mouth that I said everyone that disagrees with me is a PETA supporter. I couldn't give 2 cents weather or not you disagree or agree with me. And if that makes me "radical" so be it, I could really care less.

I will continue to dock for the show ring, and you can agree or not. This debate is turned so silly I have nothing more to add.

Good for you that you dont crop, Im glad you can still have a say in that decision for your dog, as I have for docking mine.

 

[RD]

The problem with this is that the majority of the population of the world isn't responsible enough to own an intact dog and keep it from having pups. I think that's pretty evident in the number of 'oops' litters there are every year. People just don't care, so spay/neutering is exremely important for that (sadly HUGE) section of the population.
I see your point, but since we don't live in a world full of responsible people I don't think you can compare the two (cropping & spay/neutering).

Cass.

Yes, unfortunately this is true. I wasn't talking about the irresponsible people who keep their dogs intact so much as the caring dog owners who neuter their dogs because, honestly, it makes them easier to own. The drive to reproduce is very, very strong and taking that away makes it easier for the owner to be less diligent of their dog's whereabouts, and still be considered responsible. I'll admit, I wish my dad would neuter our male dog because I'd love to let him play with other dogs without asking everyone if their female is intact. But he's not impossible to own, it just requires more diligence to make sure that these "oops" moments never happen. These responsible owners are quite well equipped to prevent this without putting their dogs through surgery, but they opt not to. That's fine, it's their right to do so if they want to get rid of that drive. Why is it any different if they want their dog to look a certain way? For the record, I'm just playing devil's advocate here as I fully support spay/neuter.

In terms of what the dog goes through, I must say that a spay procedure seems much more painful for the dog to recover from, than an ear crop. Most dogs I've seen recovering from a spay are out of it for a day or two, but the pups I've seen recovering from an ear crop are bouncing around within a few hours. If this is about the ordeal that the dogs go through, and not the reasons for doing it, then I'd say an ear crop is a very minor procedure. A tail dock even less, considering the age and size of the puppies when it's performed.

 

[doberkim]

Thanks for putting words in my mouth that I said everyone that disagrees with me is a PETA supporter. I couldn't give 2 cents weather or not you disagree or agree with me. And if that makes me "radical" so be it, I could really care less.

Sorry sweetie - you are the one that did JUST THAT - you accused the AVMA of being PETA supporters! You said it, not me. If you want to discuss how the veterinary community feels about cropping and docking, remember dear - you're SPEAKING to a vet here. I think I have a fairly good handle on how us vets feel.

 

[ACooper]

I wasn't even going to post here because these threads are normally a fiasco, and anyone curious about the way Chazzers feel about this subject could use the search feature and find out.

But I agree with RD's post................

In terms of what the dog goes through, I must say that a spay procedure seems much more painful for the dog to recover from, than an ear crop. Most dogs I've seen recovering from a spay are out of it for a day or two, but the pups I've seen recovering from an ear crop are bouncing around within a few hours. If this is about the ordeal that the dogs go through, and not the reasons for doing it, then I'd say an ear crop is a very minor procedure. A tail dock even less, considering the age and size of the puppies when it's performed.

and I would like to say that most dog owners will not agree on everything............how many crate discussions have went sour? or shock collar? or training tactics?

I do not want anyone taking away MY dog's crate. Maybe we shouldn't get our dogs teeth cleaned either........I mean they DO need to be put under for the job.

We just want the right to choose for ourselves, not to choose for YOU or YOUR dog

 

[Sapphire-Light]

Oh
The fact remains, many vets today do not WANT to do docking or cropping, whether or not it is legal. And I do not agree that ANYONE should be doing this without a licensed professional performing the procedure.

I agree wit you, the "vet" that recommend my bro to crop more the tail of our boxer at 4 months old shurely wasen't proffetional.


What happens when someone non profetional crops?

Examples like my boxer and this german pointer puppy wit badly cropped ears and besides why cut the ears of the german pointer ?

Not for medical, working or standar reasons.

Is easy for the point of view of the person who did the cut, money.