To all the Christian Chazzers...

sparks19

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#41
Well amongst all the "you are a bad christian" and other silliness in this thread.... at least there is a very enlightening and intelligent convo going on between GO and Puck.

it really has been a very interesting read you two. I am interested to read more of this exchange. I really have nothing to add but I am enjoying reading it. it really shows that God and Evolution can be discussed and debated intelligently.
 

sparks19

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#43
:rolleyes:

ETA: just to make sure I went back and re read the exchange between GO and Puck. I fail to see the insults and "UnChristian" behaviour you are refering to. I see a .... :eek:.... debate in it's purest form. A set of questions followed by a rebuttal with a set of answers and then a few questions added in followed by another rebuttal with answers and questions.... Nothing wrong with that exchange there. Seems to be an intelligent discussion to me but maybe I am missing something.
 

Buddy'sParents

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#44
Hey- whatever logic helps you sleep at night. Rock on with your Christian self.

ETA: There is more to this convo than Puck and Go- not everything revolves around them. Just an FYI.
 

GlassOnion

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#45
Yet, humans do and more so are EXPECTED to help the weak and deformed. Why? You would think such a poor choice, 'evolutionally' speaking, could not allow us to thrive.
Well actually that's a thing of beauty really, that we are able to help out the weaker amongst us. Not everywhere can they do this. We can do it in the US and other first world countries because we've the time and resources to do it. Our day to day struggle isn't much of a 'struggle' at all. We don't have to devote all our time and abilities to surviving so we can let others survive.

But in nomadic times, and still today, the older and weak were expected to wander off and die. Why? They were a burden to their clan because they have to survive day to day and taking care of the weak, elderly, infirm, etc aren't conducive to that.

It's a matter of what makes people feel good. When I do a good deed, I'm happy about it. It makes me feel good. That's endorphins being released into my blood that makes me feel that way. Thus I want to replicate that experience so I do more good. While the nomadic people may get that experience as well, they have to put their survival ahead of the survival of the others that they may do good upon.

One thing I do find interesting is that Plato, 200 years before Christ was born, wrote in his book The Republic that the way to control a massive amount of people is through promises of a higher being. Christianity wasn't even around at this time (according to history, that is. Not the history of the bible but historical documentation [excluding the bible]). So right there you have the foundations for a religion and lo and behold 200 years late Christianity pops up with Jesus.

So did Christianity not exist before Jesus? Or was it just people listening to god directly? (Or not in the case of the flood)



Also the 'ball of matter' isn't quite correct. No one knows what it quite is. They're trying to explain it with Membrane theory (related to String theory, read on it, it's really interesting. Just be ready to try and picture 11 dimensions lol) but we don't know enough about physics to be sure. But if they find that Dark Matter is real (they're shooting for 2008 with that one) then it'll bring us that much closer.

I don't disregard God. I think it's possible, not probable but possible. Fact is we don't know enough, either way, to say yay or nay. Christians have their faith as their evidence and scientists have what they observe as theirs. I think in time it'll become harder and harder to dispute that God does exist but we're kind of in a lull right now as both parties have to believe in their respective schools. I choose science as I've not seen God in my life at all. I was raised Christian, baptized, saved, and went to church but over time I looked back to what we used to not know (and explained through god) and what we know now, and are working on currently, and see an infinite number of possibilities ahead of us in Science. What we used to think was impossible is now an everyday thing and what we think is impossible now will be an everyday thing in years from now.

So I'm confident that we will, one day, explain the Big Bang and not just have to trust that it happened (there, faith). It may not be in my life time (which bugs the ever living hell out of me because I want to know!) but some day.
 

Puckstop31

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#46
Yeah, if you can get past the insults. :rolleyes: Way to rally for God!

Well, everybody sins or makes mistakes. I try to seek the good in people. You might try it too. Or just stay angry at whatever it is you are angry at.

Yeah, angry. This is twice now you mentioned "insults". Why? Somebody strike a nerve?

Better yet, who are you to say what is "God like" or not? I can only assume you are not a Christian, eh? What know ye of God?
 

Puckstop31

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#47
Hey- whatever logic helps you sleep at night. Rock on with your Christian self.

ETA: There is more to this convo than Puck and Go- not everything revolves around them. Just an FYI.
Like I said... MEEEE-OW. LOL

So NOW I am a moron too, eh? I pray I never become as 'smart' as you.

Oh wait... San Francisco... Never mind....


;) :D :lol-sign:
 

Buddy'sParents

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#48
Who said you were a moron? :confused:

LOL- anyways. Angry? No, just wish people were a little nicer to those that don't believe in God. Might sway them a little. *shrugs* But what do I know? I apparently don't know Him.
 

Buddy'sParents

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#49
And please- spare me any sermons. They won't mean anything coming from you. I'm done with this thread. Please carry on and keep it educational- my apologies for being so upset at how some Christians initially responded.
 

Puckstop31

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#51
Well actually that's a thing of beauty really, that we are able to help out the weaker amongst us. Not everywhere can they do this. We can do it in the US and other first world countries because we've the time and resources to do it. Our day to day struggle isn't much of a 'struggle' at all. We don't have to devote all our time and abilities to surviving so we can let others survive.

But in nomadic times, and still today, the older and weak were expected to wander off and die. Why? They were a burden to their clan because they have to survive day to day and taking care of the weak, elderly, infirm, etc aren't conducive to that.
Ok.. But in Nomadic times, do you think they still wept when loved ones died? Do you think ancient man had the same feelings we do? All I have ever read in recorded history tells me man has always had a conscience, an idea of what is right and wrong... Good or evil. IMHO, all sane people just KNOW deep inside what is right and what is wrong. People tend to reason their way around their gut when what they want goes against what their conscience is telling them. I doubt science will ever be able to really explain that. Sure, somebody will write up some stuff and it will be accepted because people WANT to accept it, but it does not make it any less true.

I believe that "gut feeling" is proof of the immortal human soul. it will never be explained in a scientific way that will make most happy, but thats fine. Do not take this to mean that I do not understand science, I am college educated and all that, but my life experince has just allowed me to see things in a MUCH different way than you will ever find in a text book.

Be calm and listen to your heart... Thats all I can really say.


It's a matter of what makes people feel good. When I do a good deed, I'm happy about it. It makes me feel good. That's endorphins being released into my blood that makes me feel that way. Thus I want to replicate that experience so I do more good. While the nomadic people may get that experience as well, they have to put their survival ahead of the survival of the others that they may do good upon.
Right... But how do people know what is "good"? If it is simple chemisty, why did evolution allow a "good" feeling to happen when we help the weak and sick? Why do people feel remorse when they have to take a life, even if it is to save their own or a family members? (Yes, I have had to do this in the Army... I don't regret it, but I wish I never had to do it and it certainly did not feel good.)

One thing I do find interesting is that Plato, 200 years before Christ was born, wrote in his book The Republic that the way to control a massive amount of people is through promises of a higher being. Christianity wasn't even around at this time (according to history, that is. Not the history of the bible but historical documentation [excluding the bible]). So right there you have the foundations for a religion and lo and behold 200 years late Christianity pops up with Jesus.

GO my friend... My faith does not ensalve me, it sets me FREE. MEN, PEOPLE, have distorted the Word and used it for THEIR purposes, not His. Stop looking at just the negative things MEN have done in the exploitation of Christianity. (BP... This means you too....) Look at all the great things that have come from it. You will not find these things in any type of main stream media or text book. Ever wonder why? Perhaps we are not the ones "under mind control", eh? LOL

So did Christianity not exist before Jesus? Or was it just people listening to god directly? (Or not in the case of the flood)
No. Perhaps faith's based in the same principles, but Christianity did not exist until He came and died and then rose again. There is a reason that the books of the Bible written before Jesus are called "The Old Testament". The old ways had a complex set of laws and rules for living... Jesus's sacrifice made all of that moot. HE was the sacrifice for our sin...

Again, I wish I was a better evangelist. If you want to learn more, try www.needhim.org to start.

But in the end, I simply refuse to believe that this amazingly awesome and complex world is just a one in a trillion lucky throw of the dice. To me, that is simply illogical.

What we used to think was impossible is now an everyday thing and what we think is impossible now will be an everyday thing in years from now.
And yet, the more we know, the more we realize we don't know.

So I'm confident that we will, one day, explain the Big Bang and not just have to trust that it happened (there, faith). It may not be in my life time (which bugs the ever living hell out of me because I want to know!) but some day.
That is BIG if man... It is going to be a whopper to explain how you get something from nothing. A like I said above... "Explaining" the big bang will only reveal something else we don't know.
 
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jess2416

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#52
Actually...she didn't ask you. She asked Christian Chazzers (look at the title...if you don't get an invitation to a party it's rude to invite yourself anyway) , which by the above statement one can surmise that you don't believe that Jesus Christ died to take away your sins. I would guess you'd be in the camp that assumes there is no such thing as sin. Whatever. She didn't ask you so don't come up in here with your rediculous notions born out of ignorance and bias.
Obviously some people missed this or they really don't care how their "religion/God" is portrayed... if that isn't rude, then please tell me what is... is that the way for anyone to get their message across... NO, IMO its NOT..

thats my .02 cents... and I'm done
 

Puckstop31

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#53
Who said you were a moron? :confused:

LOL- anyways. Angry? No, just wish people were a little nicer to those that don't believe in God. Might sway them a little. *shrugs* But what do I know? I apparently don't know Him.
Well, what was "whatever logic helps you sleep at night" supposed to mean then?

I too wish people (myself included) could be more nice to those that don't believe in God. You are right about that. It does us no good as He is ALL about love.

Thanks for the eye opener.
 

sparks19

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#54
Obviously some people missed this or they really don't care how their "religion/God" is portrayed... if that isn't rude, then please tell me what is... is that the way for anyone to get their message across... NO, IMO its NOT..

thats my .02 cents... and I'm done
Being Christian does not put one above human emotion.

A good way to relate this I guess is when people say "You are a mod.... you shouldn't let your emotions get the better of you and you should conduct yourself i a respectful manner" and that is followed by the mods response of "Just because I am a mod does not mean I do not get upset, offended or have passion or emotion. I am still a human being"

It is the same here. Was that said the best way possible? No it wasn't. Does it make her a bad Christian or make Christianity a bad thing because she has human emotion? No I do not believe it does.

To explain my previous post..... I thought the "insults" was directed at the exchange between puck and GO because I had specifically mentioned that I was enjoying such a well worded and thought out debate on a topic that so many are so passionate and prone to emotional responses about. AFter that was posted it was then said that yes it was great if you could get past the insults.... therefore I assumed it was directed at that specific exchange.

But rest assured..... being Christian does not put anyone above emotion and passion. I certainly hope my Faith is not questioned because I had a bad night and was very emotional and frustrated this morning and had a rant..... I believe I am strong in my faith but it does not put me above having bad days or emotional less than stellar moments. I don't think it is fair that I am expected to always put a smile on and be shiny and happy 24/7 and never waver just because I am a Christian. I may be a Christian....but being a human being and being subject to human nature trumps being Christian. Sometimes human nature just takes over and I cannot be perfect at all times.
 

jess2416

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#55
Of course it doesnt put you over human emotion but it does make people look at your (general your) words and actions more closely (especially when you (again general) are speaking about God and/or your religion) IMO...

I'm up to .04 cents now....
 

sparks19

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#56
Of course it doesnt put you over human emotion but it does make people look at your (general your) words and actions more closely (especially when you (again general) are speaking about God and/or your religion) IMO...

I'm up to .04 cents now....
WATCH IT!!!! You keep going you will be getting up to a whole quarter.... maybe even a dollar :D Then before you know it people will be asking you for a loan.

Now I agree with what you say above..... that is very true. But that sucks.

I mean I am Christian but some days it would just make me feel so much better to tell the world to kiss my butt lol. Like this morning :D I wish people would just recognize that moment for what it was. Not a lack of my faith or that I am a bad Christian.... but that I had a bad day or a bad night and i just want to be upset for a while. Sometimes to feel better ya just gotta stomp your feet, huff and puff and get it out of your system and then it's all good again. But it has nothing to do with my faith and it kinda makes me sad that I can't have a bad moment without ruining Christianity for everyone else. Know what I mean?
 

sparks19

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#58
Puck and Sparks. Probably what keeps me away from church is that I lack knowing rational believers like your selves.
SHHHH don't let it get out that I can be rational at times..... then people will start expecting it from me and you will be in big trouble :D
 

sparks19

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#60
Right now your pregnant, no body would believe me If I told them for at least 3 years from now.
LOL it is entirely possible that I will lose all ability of any kind of rational thinking with a child to care for hahaha. I could just lose it completely :D
 

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