To all the Christian Chazzers...
- Thread starter Sush
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Just for fun GO. Really. 
So, a very large and random explosion has the result of a almost impossibly complex world?
Also, where does that "gut" feeling come from? We all have it and you all know it. Where in evolution does a sense of conscience come from? Would not a sense of conscience be counter productive to "survival of the fittest"?
So, a very large and random explosion has the result of a almost impossibly complex world?
Also, where does that "gut" feeling come from? We all have it and you all know it. Where in evolution does a sense of conscience come from? Would not a sense of conscience be counter productive to "survival of the fittest"?
Unfortunately we understand most of everything up until the point of the Big Bang. It's hard to understand exactly what happened because the laws of physics as we currently know them (but not as we'll know them in a few years) breaks down at that point. The rest is millions of years of evolution to get everything perfected. I agree that the body seems almost infinitely complex and it would seem that some ultimate force created it rather than just a slow, steady process. I mean the phospholipids in the cellular membranes have been recorded as moving (laterally) between each other 10^7 times per second. That's impressive and hard to even imagine. But when you go back to date the Earth and you find that it's not just some (what do ya'll believe? 6,000 I think?) couple thousand years old and instead hundreds of millions of years old, there's plenty of time for all of those changes to develop and perfect. It's still not perfect, nor will it ever be, especially since humans have effectively destroyed evolution for ourselves.
Instinct. Again it's been hundreds of millions of years. Some combinations of chemicals are bound to stick with us, like a habit if you will.
There is no sense of conscience in evolution. It's something that's taught, directly (morals) and indirectly (watching others). And those videos you see of a carnivore adopting lunch is just curiosity. No sense of conscience that it killing the animal might be 'wrong' just that it's curious as to what it is and may enjoy its company over time, just as humans enjoy companionship animals do as well. Pack mentality.
I know it's not the most popular standpoint on this board (or even our nation for that matter) but I can't find any good, solid evidence that God exists. For a while I thought that our body and the way the world exists as a whole could be explanation enough but learning more about the processes of our body I can see that can be explained as well and linked to evolution. There's just an overwhelming amount of evidence for evolution (concrete facts) than there is for god. It's a ratio of thousands to one (one being the bible). The rest are just anecdotal evidence of things happening 'miraculously' (by chance) that people just put down to god because they don't know what really caused it (like our ancestors not knowing lightning is caused by the electrons in the air, so what should they explain it with? God, of course). But you asked so there you are.
Instinct. Again it's been hundreds of millions of years. Some combinations of chemicals are bound to stick with us, like a habit if you will.
There is no sense of conscience in evolution. It's something that's taught, directly (morals) and indirectly (watching others). And those videos you see of a carnivore adopting lunch is just curiosity. No sense of conscience that it killing the animal might be 'wrong' just that it's curious as to what it is and may enjoy its company over time, just as humans enjoy companionship animals do as well. Pack mentality.
I know it's not the most popular standpoint on this board (or even our nation for that matter) but I can't find any good, solid evidence that God exists. For a while I thought that our body and the way the world exists as a whole could be explanation enough but learning more about the processes of our body I can see that can be explained as well and linked to evolution. There's just an overwhelming amount of evidence for evolution (concrete facts) than there is for god. It's a ratio of thousands to one (one being the bible). The rest are just anecdotal evidence of things happening 'miraculously' (by chance) that people just put down to god because they don't know what really caused it (like our ancestors not knowing lightning is caused by the electrons in the air, so what should they explain it with? God, of course). But you asked so there you are.
It doesn't specifically say. it doesn't really clearly address that issue. So I choose to believe that they are special creatures from God (any wonder the name is just God backwards) to teach us what his kind of love really is.... what better example of true and honest unconditional love than a dog.
It will indeed be interesting to see how science tries to explain where the 'ball of matter' came from.
Frankly, it is not relevant. I am not sure how old the Earth really is, nor does it really matter to me. What IS a 'day' to God? We will probably never know on this Earth.
I understand that animals have no real 'conscience' per say, especially when it comes to food. But what about humans? It seems to me that the idea of a conscience, such as helping the weak and physically deformed, is counter productive to evolution. I expect there are exceptions, but in the animal world the weak are left to die. Yet, humans do and more so are EXPECTED to help the weak and deformed. Why? You would think such a poor choice, 'evolutionally' speaking, could not allow us to thrive.
And here we come to the crux of the matter. You NEVER will, not on this Earth at least. This is why it is called FAITH my man. When a person allows their soul to be calm and to just listen, God speaks to all of us. If we listen or not is up to us.
Not blessed with the gift of evangelism, I am not the best to explain this to you... But know this. I KNOW God exisits. Why? Because I have felt His presence, many, many times. In times of great joy and peace... In times of great fear and stress... When I need Him most and when I call on Him, He has always been there for me.
I know you are a scientist and I guess you will need "proof". Sooner or later though, you will have to take SOMETHING on faith. Maybe then you might see how WE see. I hope so.
Science is a good thing. God performs His works in the world using the laws of the natural world. Thus, all things that used to be "God did it", CAN be explained with science. We agree there. I believe in 'miracles', but those miracles come about by the use of the natural laws of the world.
I'll part with 2 thoughts, both of which I am sure you have heard before.
1.) The Physical and Meta-Physical are like oil and water.
2.) I was gonna use the "if I am right and you are wrong" thing.... I decided not to because I don't think fear should be a method used to bring people to God. So, carry on.
Thanks!
Frankly, it is not relevant. I am not sure how old the Earth really is, nor does it really matter to me. What IS a 'day' to God? We will probably never know on this Earth.
I understand that animals have no real 'conscience' per say, especially when it comes to food. But what about humans? It seems to me that the idea of a conscience, such as helping the weak and physically deformed, is counter productive to evolution. I expect there are exceptions, but in the animal world the weak are left to die. Yet, humans do and more so are EXPECTED to help the weak and deformed. Why? You would think such a poor choice, 'evolutionally' speaking, could not allow us to thrive.
And here we come to the crux of the matter. You NEVER will, not on this Earth at least. This is why it is called FAITH my man. When a person allows their soul to be calm and to just listen, God speaks to all of us. If we listen or not is up to us.
Not blessed with the gift of evangelism, I am not the best to explain this to you... But know this. I KNOW God exisits. Why? Because I have felt His presence, many, many times. In times of great joy and peace... In times of great fear and stress... When I need Him most and when I call on Him, He has always been there for me.
I know you are a scientist and I guess you will need "proof". Sooner or later though, you will have to take SOMETHING on faith. Maybe then you might see how WE see. I hope so.
Science is a good thing. God performs His works in the world using the laws of the natural world. Thus, all things that used to be "God did it", CAN be explained with science. We agree there. I believe in 'miracles', but those miracles come about by the use of the natural laws of the world.
I'll part with 2 thoughts, both of which I am sure you have heard before.
1.) The Physical and Meta-Physical are like oil and water.
2.) I was gonna use the "if I am right and you are wrong" thing.... I decided not to because I don't think fear should be a method used to bring people to God. So, carry on.
Thanks!
I guess dogs have a soul if people do. We're all nothing more than a few little animals so we are somewhat kind of similar. Plus I know my dogs are beter people than most people I know.
And for those who don't belive "gut feelings" could come from evolution check out Emergence. Its very intresting, from what I've seen about it, it has explained flocking behaviors in birds, people, ect.
And for those who don't belive "gut feelings" could come from evolution check out Emergence. Its very intresting, from what I've seen about it, it has explained flocking behaviors in birds, people, ect.
I was born a christian but now i'm more of a 'truth seeker' open to the simple basic truth all religions give.Growing up I had a catholic mother and a agnostic father...to make a long story short my dad was a saint and my mom had her issues to be polite,so that is why i chose to be a loving heathen .There is alot of truth and a good message in the bible but I believe alot of it wasn't meant to be taken literally IMO.
To me (souls) are the same as the energy that leaves your body at time of death.And the (energy)or 'life force' of human or animals is the same.I believe the love with man and dog is strong enough to find it's way back together again,somehow,if not this life then another life or a another place...is that too heavy?
.There is alot of truth and a good message in the bible but I believe alot of it wasn't meant to be taken literally IMO.To me (souls) are the same as the energy that leaves your body at time of death.And the (energy)or 'life force' of human or animals is the same.I believe the love with man and dog is strong enough to find it's way back together again,somehow,if not this life then another life or a another place...is that too heavy?
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I believe dogs have souls. How can you have a relationship with an animal and not believe it has a soul?
____________________________________________
An old man and his dog were walking down this dirt
road with fences on both sides, they came to a gate
in the fence and looked in, it was nice - grassy,
woody areas, just what a 'huntin' dog and man would
like, but, it had a sign saying 'no trespassing' so
they walked on.
They came to a beautiful gate with a person in white
robes standing there. "Welcome to Heaven"
he said. The old man was happy and started in with his
dog following him.
The gatekeeper stopped him. "Dogs aren't allowed,
I'm sorry but he can't come with you." "What
kind of Heaven won't allow dogs? If He can't come in,
then I will stay out with him. He's been my faithful
companion all his life, I can't desert him now.
" "Suit yourself, but I have to warn you,
the Devil's on this road and he'll try to sweet talk you
into his area, he'll promise you anything, but, the dog can't
go there either. If you won't leave the dog, you'll
spend Eternity on this road " So the old man and
dog went on.
They came to a rundown fence with a gap in it, no gate,
just a hole. Another old man was inside. "Scuse me Sir,
my dog and I are getting mighty tired, mind if we come in
and sit in the shade for awhile?" "Of course, there's
some cold water under that tree over there. Make yourselves
comfortable " "You're sure my dog can come in?
The man down the road said dogs weren't allowed
anywhere." "Would you come in if you had to leave
the dog?" " No sir, that's why I didn't go to
Heaven, he said the dog couldn't come in. We'll be spending
Eternity on this road, and a glass of cold water and some
shade would be mighty fine right about now. But, I won't
come in if my buddy here can't come too,
and that's final. "
The man smiled a big smile and said "Welcome to Heaven."
"You mean this is Heaven? Dogs ARE allowed? How come that
fellow down the road said they weren't?" "That was the
Devil and he gets all the people who are willing to give up a life
long companion for a comfortable place to stay.
They soon find out their mistake, but, then it's too late.
The dogs come here, the fickle people stay there.
GOD wouldn't allow dogs to be banned from Heaven. After all,
HE created them to be man's companions in life, why would he
separate them in death?"
Author Earl Hamner
The Twilight Zone
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"You think dogs will not be in heaven?
I tell you, they will be there long before any of us."
Robert Louis Stevenson
____________________________________________
An old man and his dog were walking down this dirt
road with fences on both sides, they came to a gate
in the fence and looked in, it was nice - grassy,
woody areas, just what a 'huntin' dog and man would
like, but, it had a sign saying 'no trespassing' so
they walked on.
They came to a beautiful gate with a person in white
robes standing there. "Welcome to Heaven"
he said. The old man was happy and started in with his
dog following him.
The gatekeeper stopped him. "Dogs aren't allowed,
I'm sorry but he can't come with you." "What
kind of Heaven won't allow dogs? If He can't come in,
then I will stay out with him. He's been my faithful
companion all his life, I can't desert him now.
" "Suit yourself, but I have to warn you,
the Devil's on this road and he'll try to sweet talk you
into his area, he'll promise you anything, but, the dog can't
go there either. If you won't leave the dog, you'll
spend Eternity on this road " So the old man and
dog went on.
They came to a rundown fence with a gap in it, no gate,
just a hole. Another old man was inside. "Scuse me Sir,
my dog and I are getting mighty tired, mind if we come in
and sit in the shade for awhile?" "Of course, there's
some cold water under that tree over there. Make yourselves
comfortable " "You're sure my dog can come in?
The man down the road said dogs weren't allowed
anywhere." "Would you come in if you had to leave
the dog?" " No sir, that's why I didn't go to
Heaven, he said the dog couldn't come in. We'll be spending
Eternity on this road, and a glass of cold water and some
shade would be mighty fine right about now. But, I won't
come in if my buddy here can't come too,
and that's final. "
The man smiled a big smile and said "Welcome to Heaven."
"You mean this is Heaven? Dogs ARE allowed? How come that
fellow down the road said they weren't?" "That was the
Devil and he gets all the people who are willing to give up a life
long companion for a comfortable place to stay.
They soon find out their mistake, but, then it's too late.
The dogs come here, the fickle people stay there.
GOD wouldn't allow dogs to be banned from Heaven. After all,
HE created them to be man's companions in life, why would he
separate them in death?"
Author Earl Hamner
The Twilight Zone
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"You think dogs will not be in heaven?
I tell you, they will be there long before any of us."
Robert Louis Stevenson