Thoughts on the anti breeder philosophy

[Dekka]

Another thread got me thinking.

The anti-breeder sentiment is possibly making the problem worse. Now bear with me through this.

First off I have to say I do support rescue and have and do foster for the JRTRO and helped rehab dogs who were due to be PTS. When we wanted a BC we adopted from BC rescue of Ontario. I do breed JRTs very occasionally because there are so many JRTs needing homes already (so I also don't breed for the pet market)

Now there are two groups of anti breeder people. People who support PETA and want no more pets of any kind period. Those people are just wackjobs we can forget about them for the time being.

Then there are people who say no more breeding till all the dogs in shelters find homes.

Ok lets talk about that.

We all know that until people stop buying impulse puppies at pet stores and are more educated about where to find a puppy the Millers and BYB will still be in business. This is where the rescue and pet store dogs come from. IMO BYB and Millers don't care about dogs or the plight of the over population problem. So they are not going to slow down production.. why should they. They just sell them to people who dump them in shelters and rescues. They still get the cash just the same.

The shelters and rescues are just cleaning up other people's messes. As long as there are those who will jump in and clean up the messes what insentive does the breeder of those dogs have to stop? Shelters and rescues give a place for people to 'feel good' about dumping their dogs. They delude themselves into thinking that 9 year old arthritic Fluffy will find a great home that can look after his health problems, or that Sharkie the biting terrier who messes on the floor will find someone who can train him.

The issue is we need to educate the public. By sending telling them to just adopt and save a life and to not go to a breeder is good for the dog they get.. but is it good for dogs? We tell people not to go to a BYB or get from a pet store. We list health problems temperament problems bad breedign practicies etc etc... yet that is the dog they adopt! (of course all don't have issues.. but all byb or milled dogs don't either.. you just have a much higher chance) How do we educate the public without shoot ourselves in the foot?

And realistically if those breeders who DO care about dogs (AKA all the good and ethical breeders who will do everything in their power to keep pups out of shelters etc) stop breeding... what happens when they do want to start breeding again? What happens to all those health tested proven bloodlines? If our goal is to have a happy well adjusted healthy dog population we need to keep the good breeders going and stop the bad ones. Right now the anti-breeder types are supporting the bad breeders indirectly and harming the good ones.

How do we fix this? Educating the public is difficult. Dogs are not objects and its not their fault they were bred, but we need to some how stop making it so easy for the Millers to pump out dogs.

The only idea I have had is to mandate that all pups sold in petstores are microchipped. The name of the breeder MUST stay on the microchip as a second name. That way if the dog ever gets sent to a shelter the dog can be shipped back to the breeder (and a follow up to see what they did with the dog... I am not against painless euthanasia after a period of looking for a home for an unwanted dog.. its better than being a stray or living their life in a cage). If every unwanted dog got returned to the breeder that might curb the excess production of pups.

Not that you could make this happen... if the people who drop off Fluffy or Sharkie had to watch their 'beloved' pet being euthed it might make dumping them a little harder to do.

 

[ArcticHeatwave]

My only thought is if you send the pup back to the byb or puppy mill breeder they might or will us the dog in their breeding program producing more puppies and a bigger problem.

 

[Dekka]

Not if it was s/n first

 

[ArcticHeatwave]

Not if it was s/n first

Well that would work if you could also check on the living conditions of where the returned pup was going to.

I do agree with educating the public on pets are not a temporary item.

 

[corgipower]

How do we fix this? Educating the public is difficult. Dogs are not objects and its not their fault they were bred, but we need to some how stop making it so easy for the Millers to pump out dogs.

Why should educating the public be so difficult? I agree that educating the buyers to not buy from pet stores is necessary. When people stop buying puppies from pet stores, the stores will stop buying them from the breeders, the breeders will have no source of income. But that should be relatively easy if enough people are committed to doing so.

The problem there is too many people are waiting for someone else to do the educating. If every member of chaz were to write a letter to their newspaper, that would be a start.

If every member of chaz who has a website were to put a statement on their site, that would also help.

If every member of chaz were to put out a brochure or flyer in places where the public will see it, that would do some.

The more difficult issue is the BYB. It's difficult to develop blanket statements that would make it easy for a novice puppy buyer to select a reputable breeder from a BYB. But not impossible.

 

[Dekka]

No I mean telling them one thing (adopt and save a life) but then telling them that puppy mill dogs and byb dogs are bad (but adopt one anyway)

 

[corgipower]

No I mean telling them one thing (adopt and save a life) but then telling them that puppy mill dogs and byb dogs are bad (but adopt one anyway)

Why would you tell them to adopt a puppy mill or byb dog? They adopt shelter dogs. They adopt rescue dogs. They buy puppy mill and byb dogs. If the puppy mill dog ends up at a shelter, then they are adopting a dog who was puppy mill bred, but that's doable as long as the breeder didn't receive money for the dog.

 

[Dekka]

99.9% of dogs in shelters are from one of those two sources.

if you tell people they should go to ethical breeder because they will have a greater chance at a healthy well adjusted dog and that they don't want a byb/milled dog. Then you tell them they can adopt a shelter dog which came from the same source that you told them to stay away from.

This what I meant by hard to educate. Its a matter of changing a whole mind set. I have had this argument with people before. If their shelter dog was the best dog ever and it came from a byb why not go back to a byb to get a puppy?

 

[SisMorphine]

I wonder what the milers would do with such a HUGE influx of returns?

 

[SisMorphine]

If every member of chaz who has a website were to put a statement on their site, that would also help.

I think this is a GREAT idea. I will be adding this page to my website once I get it redone in the next few months. Awesome.

 

[Dekka]

I wonder what the milers would do with such a HUGE influx of returns?

Likely PTS them. But that is what most shelters do and it would then cost them. There would need to be a follow up to make sure they are doing it at a vet.

 

[corgipower]

If their shelter dog was the best dog ever and it came from a byb why not go back to a byb to get a puppy?

Tell them that if their shelter dog was the best dog ever, they should go get another shelter dog.

Dekka, I understand, and I do see how it can get circular.

Educate them on retention. Educate them on the fact that BYBs don't temperament test, don't health test. Educate them on the fact that sometimes life changes and despite all the best intentions, they might need to rehome fifi. Educate them on the fact that if fifi came from a BYB, they'll have to either find fifi a home themselves or dump her in a shelter where she'll spend some time in a cold dark run all by herself and then be euthed. Educate them on the fact that if fifi had come from a reputable breeder that the breeder would take fifi back and fifi would live happily in a home with people to love her.

IOW, yup, use an ARlike tactic.

 

[corgipower]

I think this is a GREAT idea. I will be adding this page to my website once I get it redone in the next few months. Awesome.

I'm in the process of writing something for my site.

 

[BostonBanker]

It really is all a bit of a circle. Of course, I think the important part of adopting from a shelter/rescue is that it is not putting additional money into the hands of the breeders. Basically, the damage is already done; it becomes about saving the individual. In the cycle from BYBer --> Owner One --> Rescue --> Adopter, that first arrow is the one that has to be eliminated. The cycle has to stop there. Once the dog is out of the hands of the crappy breeder, they've gotten their money and their need is fulfilled.

Yes, it's about education. I think there is probably a bit too much influence on "Only rescue is okay", and that the option to go through a responsible breeder also needs to come in to play. I'm the biggest supporter of rescue out there, and I got my fantastic, nearly issue-free dog from a high-kill shelter, but I also have no objections to people who choose to go with a good breeder.

I think the hardest part of any of this to me is processing that, before that first step has occurred (BYBer/miller --> Owner One), YOU CAN NOT THINK ABOUT THE INDIVIDUAL. It is far too easy to look at that one dog and think, "But she/he needs rescuing from this situation just as much as the dogs in shelters do". You have to be able to look at the entire situation at once and say "Saving this dog will condemn many more". And that is so very hard. I'm not sure I could even do it, if I were sitting there looking at a bunch of puppies.

So in short, I don't know what the answer is. Well, obviously a big part of it is education. I think the word is getting out there slowly. I'm thinking in particular of the article on puppy mills that was in People not long ago. I can't remember if it talked about good vs bad breeders, but it certainly gave information on where NOT to buy a pet. And as I said, that is step one. Stop that first arrow, and eventually the BYBer and mills will die off.

 

[xpaeanx]

I think another problems is in the shelters/rescues themselves. Because the dog they have came from a bad situation, they try their hardest to make sure that said dog doesn't go back into a similar situation. I have nothing against that, and I think it's great.

The problem is that they then start to create all these bogus rules.

-You can't adopt if you don't have a fence.
-You can't adopt if you have children.
-You can't adopt if you don't own your own home.
-You can't adopt if you're under the age of 26.
-You can't adopt if [insert stupid reason here].

Alot of the people who fall under those "you can't adopt if" rules, will often then go to the local petshop and buy a puppy. Now, I'm not going to say that is all the people who buy a dog... but it's definately a good portion of them.

I've been turned down for adoption before bc I fall under a few of those catagories... Does that mean I shouldn't have dogs? I surely hope not!

 

[Miakoda]

This is a GREAT thread and I will post more later as I don't have time at the moment, but great post Dekka.

 

[Romy]

I think the hardest part of any of this to me is processing that, before that first step has occurred (BYBer/miller --> Owner One), YOU CAN NOT THINK ABOUT THE INDIVIDUAL.* It is far too easy to look at that one dog and think, "But she/he needs rescuing from this situation just as much as the dogs in shelters do".* You have to be able to look at the entire situation at once and say "Saving this dog will condemn many more".* And that is so very hard.* I'm not sure I could even do it, if I were sitting there looking at a bunch of puppies.

This is precisely it.

Us reptile people know from years of experience the whole dynamic of people "saving" animals from horrid pet stores and how it feeds the market. There were even a few rotten people out there who would purposefully allow their animals to run out of water, food, lay in their own feces in overcrowded cages because they knew it would bring in sympathy sales. And it worked like a charm.

For some reason all the humane societies and law enforcement people turned a blind eye to it all. When confronted with photographic evidence of dead and dying animals on public display with no food or water, some of the dead literally mummified from dehydration they said "sorry, reptiles aren't under our jurisdiction. Try fish and game." Fish and game would do nothing because they only deal with native animals.

10 years ago there was a massive overpopulation of giant green iguanas in captivity, being turned loose into the wilderness and dumped on rescues. Literally thousands of animals were thrown out once they outgrew their 10 gallon tanks. These are animals that grow over 6 feet long, have razor sharp teeth claws and tails, can get pretty aggressive if not handled, and can live over 20 years. There was a huge and pretty aggressive grassroots campaign started by the reptile rescues and clubs. For every cute little bitty 6 inch hatchling someone "saved" from the pet stores, 100 others died in transit and on the sales floor. And also the fact that they make horrible pets for most people.

Anyway, it worked. My iguana and I made hundreds of school visits and talked to thousands of children about what it takes to keep an iguana healthy and why aren't good pets for most people. And what reptiles DO make good pets, and why they should buy one from a good breeder. Not just me, but hundreds of other iguana owners and rescues, visited schools made TV appearances, talked to people on the street while they took their lizards for walks. Eventually it did work. The market for hatchling iguanas dried up. It has been 8 years since I've seen a tank of baby iguanas at a petco or petsmart. There are nowhere near the number of iguanas in rescue that there used to be, yet they are still available for the dedicated few that want to keep them.

With dogs, we have a lot more tools than any of the reptile folks had. We have the media. We have breed clubs and the AKC, we have the law and people willing to enforce it. We have people's sympathy. People for the most part want to do the right thing. They need to be educated.

I think that the website idea is a great one. I think the microchip idea is fabulous. The puppy mills also need to pay for the transportation costs of returning unwanted older dogs. They need to employ a vet to legally and humanely euthanize those they can't or won't find homes for. The returns should be spayed/neutered if not already and if the shelter has to do it then the mill the dog is being returned to needs to foot the bill. There's those groups that go to elementary schools and teach kids how to greet a dog, well someone could teach those kids on a visit about why it's important to get a dog from a breeder who tests the parents to make sure they have healthy puppies, etc.

Another thing that would help vastly, is if the AKC had some of the breed clubs (esp. of popularly milled breeds) come up with required health tests for breeding dogs to undergo in order for their offspring to be AKC registered. This would benefit some of these overbred breeds on several levels. If the millers complied, at least they'd be producing healthier mill dogs. If they didn't, they'd have to sell unpapered dogs and loose the "AKC registered" selling point. Honestly, I am pretty annoyed at the AKC for not being more proactive in making things difficult for puppymills because it's completely in their power to do so.

 

[Doberluv]

A lot of great posts!

Another thing that would help vastly, is if the AKC had some of the breed clubs (esp. of popularly milled breeds) come up with required health tests for breeding dogs to undergo in order for their offspring to be AKC registered. This would benefit some of these overbred breeds on several levels. If the millers complied, at least they'd be producing healthier mill dogs. If they didn't, they'd have to sell unpapered dogs and loose the "AKC registered" selling point. Honestly, I am pretty annoyed at the AKC for not being more proactive in making things difficult for puppymills because it's completely in their power to do so.

So true. Good post Romy.

 

[Maxy24]

I see what you're saying, we tell someone to stay away from BYBs and mills because of the awful things that their pup might end up with. On the other hand the biggest reason I see mills as bad is because of the torture to the breeding dogs, they are kept in awful conditions and used as puppy pumping machines until they stop working and are sold or killed. There is no concern for their lives, they are disposable. Putting money into those hands is disgusting, so regardless of your pup having issues mills should be avoided so you are not condemning generations of dogs to an awful life.

Now then there is the BYB-shelter difference. You get the same quality dog. If you are about to go to a BYB and someone says it's a bad idea you have two choices. Go to a shelter and take a dog of the same quality but be saving his life and not supporting careless, poor breeding practices. Or go to a good breeder, get a more predictable (as in more predictable health (good health), temperament (parents proven in some work or TDI etc.), size, coat etc.), not be saving a life but be supporting good breeding practices.

For some people they will be very worried about mystery health problems that could show up, shotty temperaments, dog getting too big etc. And will go the good breeder route. Maybe they want a dog who can do specific work and need a dog whose parents were good at that.
Some people are more open, if they want a pup they are not super specific on size (perhaps they want a small dog but don't need it to stay below a certain weight to keep it) and can accommodate most energy levels, just not super high energy. You can find a pup who is of a breed or mix that generally follow that criteria and be pretty safe. Or you could go the adult root. The only really complete mystery in an adult is health problems cropping up. You can get an idea of temperament, size, activity level, coat length and such.

My reason for not going to a BYB has little to do with what I might be facing but has more to do with ethics. I am going to try and get a pretty predictable temperament by getting an adult whose predominate breed i like and whose temperament is known by the shelter or rescue staff/foster.

 

[xpaeanx]

Another thing that would help vastly, is if the AKC had some of the breed clubs (esp. of popularly milled breeds) come up with required health tests for breeding dogs to undergo in order for their offspring to be AKC registered. This would benefit some of these overbred breeds on several levels. If the millers complied, at least they'd be producing healthier mill dogs. If they didn't, they'd have to sell unpapered dogs and loose the "AKC registered" selling point. Honestly, I am pretty annoyed at the AKC for not being more proactive in making things difficult for puppymills because it's completely in their power to do so.

That would be AWESOME if the AKC required the parents to be health tested before registering the pups!

I don't think it would make that much of an impact on the mills though. They don't use AKC, they use things like "pet registry of america." BYBs probably would have their dogs health tested, so then you have to think about what level of "passing" you would allow.

Laws about the number of litters you can have in any given year and enforcing them would help, but then that's getting kinda scary with restrictive laws.


I like the Microchip idea though... but I feel bad about the dogs that would go through the fist few "waves" of returns though.