This is a Forum.

Discussion in 'Buried Bones' started by Renee750il, Oct 9, 2007.

  1. Renee750il

    Renee750il Felurian

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    There's been a run of controversies over various and sundry issues lately, and terms like "troll" have been used pretty promiscuously. A few of you have wondered why we haven't banned people for touting methods and philosophies that a great many of us have great distaste for, that, don't agree with the "philosophy" here.

    This is a forum.

    A forum, ideally, is a place for free exchange of ideas - not for a handful of people to eschew their own philosophies to an audience of sycophants. That goes for both sides of the hot issues.

    As moderators, we aren't here to "steer" things in any particular direction. Moderation is just that - we are here to moderate and keep things from escalating TOO violently.

    "Steering" a forum and dictating that it have a particular philosophy is what makes a forum irrelevant and what kills a forum.

    It needs to be remembered, also, that good intentions don't negate the ill effects of poor behavior. It's a real shame when the people who we condemn for their treatment of dogs - or any animal - can exhibit more self-discipline in the presentation of their arguments for their methods than those who are on the opposite side of that fence. And what is even more sad, is to observers, it tends to give more credibility to their harsher methods . . . . Damnshame, too.
     
  2. Dizzy

    Dizzy Sit! Good dog.

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    I nearly wrote "good observation".

    But reading your post, I agree.

    People may not like the way I put my own ideas across, but I never name call, or resort to kiddie tactics. And sadly, most of the new members to this site have had to witness this.

    Some people need to pull their socks up, straighten their shirts and remember, what goes around, comes around.

    Either way, well put.
     
  3. Charliesmommy

    Charliesmommy I run with scissors

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    I personally see nothing wrong with a forum that dictates a particular philosophy, when that philosophy is the humane treatment of animals. I joined this forum because I thought it was for people who love dogs and want what is best for them. Lately I see a lot of people who abuse and neglect their dogs hanging out here and I have no use for reading what they have to say.
     
  4. Aussie Red

    Aussie Red Rebel With Cause

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    Yes I too thought that it was a forum built on the love and betterment of dogs. While I do believe in freedom of speech I also see that as a forum of animal lovers it is out of place here. Kind of similar to allowing Satan worshipers free speech in a house of God if you will. As a person who works so many hours daily to free animals from the pits of abuse and death I can not agree with allowing these to be in a place made solely to bring in animal lovers and let us face it that was the reason Chaz was started. I can agree that one needs to try to help a person who does not know what to do but when given the advice spends deals of time arguing why they can't do it I see them as trolls. When I see them coming in waves and not being stopped I have to wonder if it is where I need to be. I can not or will not be nice and supportive of ones willing to hurt an animal or breed them for profit. It goes against every grain of my being. I think that there are great people here but that being nice to these is something I can not support. I think that if you want to sit on the fence and not take a stand and go with not stepping on toes ok then ,but it is my opinion and always has been that if you stand in favor of one thing then you stand all the way and and go full guns. I stand up against animal abuse and mass breeding and that means I will continue non support of these types of people even if it costs my popularity and friends because I am not sure they ever were if they support this stuff.
     
  5. Renee750il

    Renee750il Felurian

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    If you'll notice, there is absolutely nothing there that even implies supporting those methods or the people who espouse them. You can make a more effective stand by being persuasive and rational than you ever will by being hysterical and throwing haymakers.

    If you only preach to the choir, you'll never convert anyone.
     
  6. People HAVE been supporting them. People have tried talking to some of these people with wrong ideas of how to raise and train dogs and it doesn't work. People like Aus can nicely talk a person's ears off and still it never gets through these peoples thick skulls.

    I tried and tried to be nice to a particular member while she was rude as he!! to everyone else. It took her how many weeks to finally be banned?

    Being nice doesn't always work.

    When I joined this forum, I joined it because people had the same set of guidelines for what is acceptable and what isn't. For some reason it seems that those guidelines have changed and now it is ok for someone to run a puppymill and give advice on how to do it or beat a dog to train it.

    It actually makes me sick. If people here are not going to stand up and defend what is right then what is the point. Some of us will try and explain what a person is doing wrong and others will come along and basically say "shut up you don't know what your talking about", "you are being hypocritical", "you don't know this person" etc.
     
  7. ACooper

    ACooper Moderator

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    :hail: :hail: :hail:

    BUT, at the same time alot of these "type" of threads are looking for trouble purposely, Trolling if you will, I know it, you all know it, and yet you give them exactly what they want time and again............CRAZY.

    How can a troll BE a troll without willing participants?? I know if MY intent were trolling, nothing would tick me off more than to be ignored!

    So who is really to blame in these situations? the Troll? Chaz? The mods? or all the people who keep coming back and keep that thread right at the top while the troll laughs their behind off :confused:
     
  8. jess2416

    jess2416 Who woulda thought

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    Well, if everyone knows what a trolling thread is, and people know how people are going to react to those types of threads then maybe it should be deleted/closed before trouble even starts, instead of letting it get 15 pages long...

    But maybe thats too complicated
     
  9. I agree. Why bother letting trolling threads even go on? Oh because we were told to give them a chance.
     
  10. ACooper

    ACooper Moderator

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    But see, no one said NOT to go and give your advice or opinion. Because there very well could be a chance that it is a legitimate question or issue.

    ONE post is usually more than enough........unless of course you have something NEW to add that wasn't said in your first post. But there are those that keep coming and coming saying the same thing that THEY themselves have already said, but getting more aggressive and rude EACH time they do so. As if saying it rudely will somehow make the "supposed" troll give up or understand YOUR point of view...........ya, good logic there :rolleyes:
     
  11. chazhound

    chazhound Alpha Dog Staff Member

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    Chazhound has not changed one bit since it's creation. Just more visitors.

    We have always been about dogs and animal well being. We are an open forum that values the different views and discussions on dog issues. We don't censor views or close a thread unless it is just plain exhausted or going abusive. We can be much more restrictive, but then we wouldn't be an open forum and the dogs in the end will lose. Besides, experience has shown the members do a much better job of maintaining the order as a whole. We all here love dogs in the end.

    If a member is trolling in your view, then report them to a Moderator or myself and we will handle it, especially if you think a dog is being harmed.

    Chazhound
     
  12. Doberluv

    Doberluv Active Member

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    A DOG’S PLEA

    Treat me kindly, my beloved friend, for no heart in all the world is more grateful for kindness than the loving heart of me.

    Do not break my spirit with a stick, for though I should lick your hand between blows, your patience and understanding will more quickly teach me the things you would have me learn.

    Speak to me often, for your voice is the world’s sweetest music, as you must know by the fierce wagging of my tail when your footstep falls upon my waiting ears.

    Please take me inside when it is cold and wet, for I am a domesticated animal, no longer accustomed to bitter elements. I ask no greater glory than the privilege of sitting at your feet beside the hearth.

    Keep my pan filled with fresh water, for I cannot tell you when I suffer thirst. Feed me clean food that I may stay well, to romp and play and do your bidding, to walk by your side and stand ready, willing and able to protect you with my life, should your life be in danger.

    And, my friend, when I am old, and I no longer enjoy good health, hearing and sight, do not make heroic efforts to keep me going. I am not having any fun. Please see that my trusting life is taken gently. I shall leave this earth knowing with the last breath I draw that my fate was always safest in your hands.


    Graphic:

    http://www.shershihtzus.com/about_puppy_mills.htm

    Let me put it this way. People who don't abide by the dog's prayer, who hit dogs, choke dogs, half drown dogs....people who mass produce dogs for money like the above link.....people who fight dogs with other dogs, who promote molestation and abuse of any kind.... I wouldn't invite them into my house for tea.
     
  13. I am sorry to say but this will be my last post at this place.

    Chaz HAS changed. I see it along with many other people. I used to like this forum a LOT but it has turned into a gongshow. Long standing members are being warned while newbies run the show and get to call names, talk about running puppy mills and teach people that it is "ok" abuse dogs.

    I understand the whole freedom of speech thing but it has to stop somewhere. People that sit here and say it is fine to beat a dog with a stick or shove their head in a hole filled with water. People are defending disgusting breeding operations.

    I am sorry but I am sick of being b!tched at for standing up for what I believe in. You all have to remember that this is very well known forum and people come here for advice. When they come here and see posts about Richling training being ok, puppymills being ok, how many people are going to take that information and run with it. How detrimental is people reading that kind of crap and running with it. But then again, I think this forum has become all about how many members it can get. The more the merrier right? Who cares what they stand for.

    If this is the way you want it here, you can have it. But I refuse to be a part of it.
     
  14. Squishy22

    Squishy22 Guest

    Not trying to be rude in any way, but from the threads I have read about abusive training techniques I have seen that chaz members do great at explaining why its wrong and the correct way of training, EXCEPT for a few that are immature about it and resort to name calling. I just cant see someone reading one of those threads and decide to be on richlings side when all the members disagree with his methods and explain exactly why its so wrong. Someone would have to be a fool to run with richlings information. I dont see it happening unless they agree with richling type teachings before even reading his threads.
     
  15. Dizzy

    Dizzy Sit! Good dog.

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    Someone says this nearly every week.

    It's never changed.

    And it's a forum. You need to learn to not get emotionally attached.

    You can't fight for any cause if you are caught up in a whirlwind of anger, tears or frustration. You have to be cool, calm and logical.

    I know someone who "crusades" for disability. He lectured us for a year. But he was SO wrapped up in it, and so emotionally involved.... He didn't change anything.., he came across as desperate, and not very coherent.

    A fantastic cause ruined by poor control.

    People learn in a number of ways. Unfortunately 90% is how you present your case, not what you say.


    If you can't manage that, and you get flummoxed by the internet, I fail to see what impact you can have on a face to face level.
     
  16. smkie

    smkie pointer/labrador/terrier Staff Member

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    But what about the many that read what is written, the ones not posting, and can hear both sides of the issue? They are the ones that might make a difference you never know about. I may never convince the poster that prongs, and chokes, and electic shock is not neccessary to train an animal. They have already made up their mind before they started. But if i can reach one person that is debating, and frustrated with the training they have been trying, and show them a different way, then that is enough for me.
    or not docking,,,or not breeding...or kenneling, you name it.
     
  17. Gempress

    Gempress Walks into Mordor

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    Are you suggesting that mods should overlook transgressions by long-term members? I don't believe in that at all. It's just a form a favoritism. EVERYONE on Chaz is held to the same standard of behavior.

    Freedom of speech shouldn't end because somebody says something you don't agree with. That's why it's called "freedom of speech" and not "freedom to speak until you say something I don't like."

    And yes, people are posting things about dogs that other members don't agree with. But you have to consider this: These posts also give an opportunity for people to speak against them.

    Do you think people will read one post out of the thread and simply go with it? Or will they read the ENTIRE thread, including the tons of posts arguing against it? It's exactly like smkie said. Perhaps your reasoning won't convince the original poster. But you *could* convince any of the thousands of lurkers who happen to read it.
     
    Last edited: Oct 10, 2007
  18. mjb

    mjb New Member

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    Like someone said earlier in this thread, you can't argue if there's no one to argue with.

    So once everyone who wants to posts their reasons why a certain training method is inhumane, for example, they probably don't need to continue restating what they've already said if they want the thread to die. It only continues the person arguing in favor of that method and keeps the thread alive.
     
  19. smkie

    smkie pointer/labrador/terrier Staff Member

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    Its my opinion that some people just like to argue, get off on stirring the pot. Others want 100 percent agreement. THat is what gets weary. THe unpleasant drama gets a thousand fold more attention then anything that is postive. Gee i wonder why, since our media is the same way. Maybe "we" are "trained" to get off on adreniline. (sp?) and need that surge to get through another day. Sad to say. As for me, i give you my opinion based on my experience. THen that's it. You can take it, drop it, laff at it, or toss it in the river i really don't care. I spend my effort in the hopes that maybe a person will try it, and it will work for them. I certainly don't expect everyone to agree with me, and frankly i don't care if they do or not. I care about their dog, and that is why i try. I also know that you can find unexpected answers to problems in places just like this. WHen i first got VIc, even after years and years of puppies, i never had one like this. You could not get him to have 4 on the floor for love nor money. Creature Teacher told me to teach him up to teach him down. GUess what worked like a charm. I love CHazhound, i will always love Chazhound. Some people here are closer to me then my own siblings. I love their dogs and enjoy in their successes, and share in their losses. I want to learn different approaches to new problems and better answers to old ones. THat is why i am here.
     
  20. Laurelin

    Laurelin I'm All Ears

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    Just my 2 cents...

    I've been here about a year, and I think Chaz is relatively the same. Things change on any forum you're on. They go through phases, then most the time they correct themselves. Memers that were here when I firstg ot here have left or don't post as much, new people come... it's just the way it works.

    Chaz is the best dog forum I've been on because people are allowed to say more than what people are allowed to sayon other forums. The amount of censorship on other forums is astonishing. I like the freedom.

    I wish other people would step back and try not to be so rude as I think that undermines their arguments. A topic that you disagree with is a great chance to logically explain your point of view. It's foolish to think you'll 100% change the OP but at least your side is out there.

    There are plenty of posters both long time members or newbies that I disagree with on key topics, but I just don't take it too personally. A forum is a place to discuss and debate and if everyone thought the same way, then none of us would be learning anything. I'm not saying you should condone what you feel to be abusive training methods, but instead reply with logic and reason and argue against it!

    I'd hate to see a lot of favoritism towards the 'senior members'. To me a newbie and a long time poster are equally as valuable as contributing members. Of the many newbies we've gotten recently, I can only think of a couple that really rub me the wrong way. One of those was taken care of by the mods, and rightfully so. They are doing their jobs, but they shouldn't be the 'newbie police'. The rules should apply to all of us.

    Also, I think people need to remember that not everyone who disagrees with you is a troll.
     

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