The Unthinkable has happened...
- Thread starter gapeach
- Start date
I know how this must have upset you all. I could never have owned a dog I could not thoughly trusted among my children or their visiting friends. As much as I love dogs, one bite and they'd be gone. I mean a bite as an attack. I'm sorry this has happened before the new one arrives..... but maybe it's for the best.
You have to do whats best for your family. Who cares what other people think. I support your decision either way. Your children should ALWAYS come first and anyone who thinks that is irresponsible needs to give their head a shake. You are doing what is best for your children and I think that earns you a ton of respect. This is a tough decision to make. Don't let anyone make it any harder for you. You have my best wishes and (((((((HUGS))))))))
Thank you Jess and Grammy, this has been very upseting for all of us. My husband was ready to put her down yesterday and I disagreed as I felt like it was my fault. But today the more I think about it the more I'm agreeing with James, I don't feel it is safe for Maggie anymore. And with this child coming I won't be able to pay as close attention.
Awww Gapeach ... I just saw your post. I know how this must pain you !!! Hopefully you can re-home. There are so many breeds I've always admired , but the safety of the kids come first. My husband always wanted a more " matcho" breed than a Golden before we had kids..... I was so afraid I'd be in your situation , I held out until I could get another Golden. I couldn't bear to think of what you're going through now. Big (((( HUGS )))) from Grammy.
A-w-w...I'm so sorry you're going through this. It has got to be the worst decision. But to tell you the truth, I'd be doing the same thing. I couldn't keep a dog who did that if I had children around. I'd never feel safe or comfortable. Things will get better for you and I'm sure he'll get a home where someone can turn him around who doesn't have kids around. That will be best for all. My thoughts are with you.
Yes Grammy, it is heart breaking, Carey is our baby and our first dog together. We have no idea what breed she is because she was found as a tiny pup on the side of the road. I wish desperately that we could re home her, but I just don't see it happening and in the mean time it scares me to think it could happen again. The treat ball is in the trash and we have always made sure Maggie doesn't go in the kitchen when Carey is eating. But for some reason in the past few months she has just decided she is more dominant than Maggie, I wish someone could explain this to me. I am also reasonably sure that htere are no reputable dog trainers in our area to help us with this.
I am so sorry. I know how difficult this is for you. I have had to give up two dogs because they have bit Emily. Lily was so hard to let go of too and I still miss her but thankfully the people that have her now send me updates and pictures. I have to agree though that she should go to another home or be PTS if a trainer would not help you. I have to admit I still have a few doubts about Emily and the sheltie we have now, Foxy. He has only growled at her once but I am still so over protective of her with him, more so than I am with Hannah as I feel Hannah would not hurt a fly and truly loves Emily (I'm not saying your dog doesn't love your daughter though). I would just be very watchful until you decide what is going to be done. Any decision will be hard but you have to know it is best for your family your kids need to come first. I would first talk to your vet and a trainer and see what they have to say before making any permanent decisions. I am not a dog expert but I would do what had to be done to keep my children safe.
Dogs reach social maturity between 18-36 months of age, depending on Carey's age this could account for some of the changes you have recently noticed in her behavior. Also, a 2yr old child is much more active/mobile than a 1yr old...I imagine that these changes in the childs activity and development could also have an effect on Carey's behavior towards the child.
Unfortunately, when children are bitten it is usually in the face because they tend to be at or near eye level with many dogs.
I'm very sorry for the situation you are in but I understand. And I agree that a dog that resource guards is quite risky with small children in the home.
Unfortunately, when children are bitten it is usually in the face because they tend to be at or near eye level with many dogs.
I'm very sorry for the situation you are in but I understand. And I agree that a dog that resource guards is quite risky with small children in the home.
You poor thing, you must be beside yourself this is awful.
Can I suggest, though, that you really DON'T put him down?? I would try the options at your disposal first, in terms of rehoming, and then if you can't, please take him to a reputable shelter, even if you have to go a ways to find one. They screen people and look for the best possible home - I would try the ASPCA, they are excellent at rehoming, plus, they won't rehome until they have trained bad traits out of dogs.
You will be saving your dog's life, if you are prepared to do this, and you love him dearly, so I'm sure you will at least consider this advice.
Can I suggest, though, that you really DON'T put him down?? I would try the options at your disposal first, in terms of rehoming, and then if you can't, please take him to a reputable shelter, even if you have to go a ways to find one. They screen people and look for the best possible home - I would try the ASPCA, they are excellent at rehoming, plus, they won't rehome until they have trained bad traits out of dogs.
You will be saving your dog's life, if you are prepared to do this, and you love him dearly, so I'm sure you will at least consider this advice.
Most behavior problems like this are caused by a dog not having a clear enough picture of where he stands in the scheme of the social order. They are designed to operate within a heirarchy, albeit domestic dogs aren't quite like wolves and we are not exactly like a pack. It is something like that.
Sometimes people are sure their dogs know they're in charge because they see no challenges or problems from their dog. It can go along just fine as long as everything is going along smoothly for the dog. But when one thing comes up that isn't what he wants, is important enough to him to do something about, he suddenly reacts in a way that a subordinate animal does not, but a middle ranking one does. He challenges. Middle ranking animals will challenge other middle ranking animals, but won't challenge the leader. If the dog doesn't have an absolutely clear picture that there is a strong leader, he will take it upon himself to make these decisions.
Your child presented to the dog something not approved of by the dog and he took it into his own hands to deal with the situation in his own way, rather than leaving it up to you. That is because he saw himself as right up there, in charge, since to him, you are a middle rank....where as he should be leaving any and all decisions like that (how to handle the child getting his stuff) up to you. The leader handles all those kinds of decisions. A subordinate does not.
Now, I could have this wrong because I didn't see what happened exactly. Or I might have it wrong anyhow. These are my suspicions.
Sometimes too, dogs view children as prey and their hunting instincts kick in. This is not very common, I don't think in a family setting, especially if the child wasn't running or moving. But it is a possibility. It does sound like a guarding issue....guarding his toy. But again, resource guarding is a leadership conflict in the dog. Sure, he may not view a child as a leader, but within the family....again, he should be knowing his place enough to know that it is you who makes those decisions and solves those problems of his.
I am not wanting to sound bashing or critical. So please don't take it that way. This kind of thing can sneak up on people very, very easily. You are not alone. When dogs whine for attention and we turn and acknoweldge them, we are reacting to their acting. When they want things, push at us for affection all the time etc....and we react, they are getting a message that they are calling the shots and we are following along with them. They are acting. We are reacting. This can contribute to a lack of leadership of our dogs.
Some people make the mistake of thinking that harshness and sterness is what makes a good strong leader. It does not. Controlling resources and decision making is part of what makes a leader to a dog. Leaders act. Followers react.
I had a dog when I had babies and toddlers, a GSD...never had an inkling of anything like that from him. I even had daycare at that time. The GSD licked the babies, was gentle and couldn't care less if someone took something, stepped on his toe....absolutely trustworthy. He even would shoulder them closer to the house when we were all outside playing. That protective, herding instinct kicked in. Went sledding with them, never chased or hurt them. He loved the kids. He knew somehow that there was no way on earth that he was in a position to make decisions like that about his stuff or anything else.
So, something went wrong here. It may not be anything that you did. It could be a temperament issue. It's impossible to say for sure. I hope someone can straighten him out....someone without kids so less risky. I really don't think he should be put down. I think he could very easily be straightened out. He just needs to be shown where he belongs in his family. With some dogs, it's not as easy as others, but someone very experienced could fix him up. I just am really quite sure of it.
I sure am sorry about this. And don't blame yourself. This is something that sneaks up on people a lot. It can be turned around. But I think it needs a very experienced dog trainer/handler to work with. And you can't risk your kids safety.
I wish you the best.
Sometimes people are sure their dogs know they're in charge because they see no challenges or problems from their dog. It can go along just fine as long as everything is going along smoothly for the dog. But when one thing comes up that isn't what he wants, is important enough to him to do something about, he suddenly reacts in a way that a subordinate animal does not, but a middle ranking one does. He challenges. Middle ranking animals will challenge other middle ranking animals, but won't challenge the leader. If the dog doesn't have an absolutely clear picture that there is a strong leader, he will take it upon himself to make these decisions.
Your child presented to the dog something not approved of by the dog and he took it into his own hands to deal with the situation in his own way, rather than leaving it up to you. That is because he saw himself as right up there, in charge, since to him, you are a middle rank....where as he should be leaving any and all decisions like that (how to handle the child getting his stuff) up to you. The leader handles all those kinds of decisions. A subordinate does not.
Now, I could have this wrong because I didn't see what happened exactly. Or I might have it wrong anyhow. These are my suspicions.
Sometimes too, dogs view children as prey and their hunting instincts kick in. This is not very common, I don't think in a family setting, especially if the child wasn't running or moving. But it is a possibility. It does sound like a guarding issue....guarding his toy. But again, resource guarding is a leadership conflict in the dog. Sure, he may not view a child as a leader, but within the family....again, he should be knowing his place enough to know that it is you who makes those decisions and solves those problems of his.
I am not wanting to sound bashing or critical. So please don't take it that way. This kind of thing can sneak up on people very, very easily. You are not alone. When dogs whine for attention and we turn and acknoweldge them, we are reacting to their acting. When they want things, push at us for affection all the time etc....and we react, they are getting a message that they are calling the shots and we are following along with them. They are acting. We are reacting. This can contribute to a lack of leadership of our dogs.
Some people make the mistake of thinking that harshness and sterness is what makes a good strong leader. It does not. Controlling resources and decision making is part of what makes a leader to a dog. Leaders act. Followers react.
I had a dog when I had babies and toddlers, a GSD...never had an inkling of anything like that from him. I even had daycare at that time. The GSD licked the babies, was gentle and couldn't care less if someone took something, stepped on his toe....absolutely trustworthy. He even would shoulder them closer to the house when we were all outside playing. That protective, herding instinct kicked in. Went sledding with them, never chased or hurt them. He loved the kids. He knew somehow that there was no way on earth that he was in a position to make decisions like that about his stuff or anything else.
So, something went wrong here. It may not be anything that you did. It could be a temperament issue. It's impossible to say for sure. I hope someone can straighten him out....someone without kids so less risky. I really don't think he should be put down. I think he could very easily be straightened out. He just needs to be shown where he belongs in his family. With some dogs, it's not as easy as others, but someone very experienced could fix him up. I just am really quite sure of it.
I sure am sorry about this. And don't blame yourself. This is something that sneaks up on people a lot. It can be turned around. But I think it needs a very experienced dog trainer/handler to work with. And you can't risk your kids safety.
I wish you the best.
Last edited:
R
I have to say I would not rehome this dog.
The chance that she might bite another child in the face is too high. It is difficult if not impossible to totally insulate a dog from any contact with children.
Consider as well that in the event you rehome the dog, EVEN if you make full disclosure and make the new owners sign a waiver and agreement to hold you harmless in the event the dog bites again, you CAN be held liable if the dog bites and injures someone.
If it were my dog it would not have seen the sun go down the day it bit my kid.
The chance that she might bite another child in the face is too high. It is difficult if not impossible to totally insulate a dog from any contact with children.
Consider as well that in the event you rehome the dog, EVEN if you make full disclosure and make the new owners sign a waiver and agreement to hold you harmless in the event the dog bites again, you CAN be held liable if the dog bites and injures someone.
If it were my dog it would not have seen the sun go down the day it bit my kid.
Well, Redyre....I guess I tend to agree with you there. It is really a dangerous thing. I'm picturing some trainer....rehabilitator keeping this dog and turning things around. But you're right. If it got into a home where kids were or the person really wasn't able to manage the dog, it would be a big risk. Once he's bitten, he has found out that it works and it is more likely he'll bite again. It's a shame....that's for sure.
I think you are thinking logically and with your head!! I would do the same thing if a suitable home can't be found in a short time. Like I said before, If my dogs would as much as growl at my kids, It would not be tolerated. The children come first regardless.
Redrye,
Your posts always make so much sense.
I love reading them.
Redrye,
Your posts always make so much sense.
I love reading them.
I'm not going to bash, and I fully support euthanizing a dangerous dog.
But... have you considered changing your training methods? Not all approaches work with all dogs and, with all due respect, whatever you've been doing hasn't worked with this dog. I'm all for positive reinforcement, but some dogs just need more discipline.
I'm very sorry for your situation, and I apologize if I've misread it. I only mean to throw out an idea, not make assumptions based on little information.
But... have you considered changing your training methods? Not all approaches work with all dogs and, with all due respect, whatever you've been doing hasn't worked with this dog. I'm all for positive reinforcement, but some dogs just need more discipline.
I'm very sorry for your situation, and I apologize if I've misread it. I only mean to throw out an idea, not make assumptions based on little information.
I don't know what you mean by positive reinforcement or discipline.... but training methods based on operant conditioning learning theory ARE discipline. Discipline means to teach. It does not punishment. And most trainers/behaviorists do not use punishment as a way to teach a dog anything. Perhaps what you mean by discipline is leadership or assertiveness. All dogs need a clear leader, but that is not in conflict with motivation and reward training methods. The two go very much together.
I just wanted to clarify that so that anyone reading this wouldn't think that "positive" method training equals not teaching or no discipline. And that it does not equal not having a clear leader and effective communication between dog and owner. If anyone thinks this, then they don't have the whole story on the training thing or how interaction between dog and owner plays a huge role. Punishment has no place in training. (Not just my opinion either.)
I just wanted to clarify that so that anyone reading this wouldn't think that "positive" method training equals not teaching or no discipline. And that it does not equal not having a clear leader and effective communication between dog and owner. If anyone thinks this, then they don't have the whole story on the training thing or how interaction between dog and owner plays a huge role. Punishment has no place in training. (Not just my opinion either.)
Frankly, in my (limited) experience, scaring or punishing the dog just makes matters worse. I totally sympathize with Gapeach, because Boris has acted the same way towards us, just growling but he did try to bite when my husband started disciplining him (mostly taking him by the collar to put him in the crate), so it just made things worse for us...