The show dogs that impressed you the most
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Ode to KIRBY The Papillon | PetLvr.com - [The Blog]
King of the World | Suite101.com
Rest in Peace little boy! Ch. Loteki Supernatural Being
But it does. It sets up a series of shows and rewards that has nothing to do with health and working ability. OF COURSE people are going to breed what wins. How much respect does a breeder have if they say "I don't like the current type that wins in the ring" so doesn't show but doesn't do anything else either?
If it was only a few breeders who bred dogs who were so far off what the standard reads then yes I would say it was just them. But when you see breed after breed changed by what happens in the ring.. well then its interesting that it has nothing to do with the format or show system and everything to do with the thousands upon thousands of breeders in scores of breeds who do the exact same things!!
Occam's razor. The simplest explanation is usually the correct one.
You set up shows that only test looks and movement. You set up a system of rewards (ch and such) for those that win. Why are you surprised at people breeding for those traits. We have partially trained people to look for these rewards when looking for a breeder.
Now if the show system was set up that dogs had to have titles first, or heath tests first.....
Yes I DO blame the current show system.. I do blame to a smaller extent the breeders. I think the current emphasis on cookie cutter comformation will really bite people in the tush down the road.. the genetic bottleneck will be too great.
Now as to breeders who do everything. I have mixed feelings. That will narrow the criteria even further and thus create a greater bottle neck. As to what the solution is I don't know.
As to my fave dog...
I don't have a pic and she died recently. Her name was Natural instinct QT. Absolutely adorable, great movement and won heck of a worker. I saw her in the ring (at my trial) and was instantly smitten.
If it was only a few breeders who bred dogs who were so far off what the standard reads then yes I would say it was just them. But when you see breed after breed changed by what happens in the ring.. well then its interesting that it has nothing to do with the format or show system and everything to do with the thousands upon thousands of breeders in scores of breeds who do the exact same things!!
Occam's razor. The simplest explanation is usually the correct one.
You set up shows that only test looks and movement. You set up a system of rewards (ch and such) for those that win. Why are you surprised at people breeding for those traits. We have partially trained people to look for these rewards when looking for a breeder.
Now if the show system was set up that dogs had to have titles first, or heath tests first.....
Yes I DO blame the current show system.. I do blame to a smaller extent the breeders. I think the current emphasis on cookie cutter comformation will really bite people in the tush down the road.. the genetic bottleneck will be too great.
Now as to breeders who do everything. I have mixed feelings. That will narrow the criteria even further and thus create a greater bottle neck. As to what the solution is I don't know.
As to my fave dog...
I don't have a pic and she died recently. Her name was Natural instinct QT. Absolutely adorable, great movement and won heck of a worker. I saw her in the ring (at my trial) and was instantly smitten.
I agree
I love my dogs as companions, they are that first and foremost, but they are also a working breed and will be tested and worked as such. Although their work isn't a job, they do get tested.
while technically being in a conformation show really does nothing to change a dog, i'm not really sure how to argue something as obvious as the split between working and show dogs of the same breed.
I have no problems with people showing their dogs. I know lots of people that do, and they love their dogs and work at what they do, but it is a far cry from testing a working dog.
I know why I tend to get a little irritated when showline stuff gets mentioned, it's because I do own and train working dogs. We are an open club as well and have a BC, bully breeds of all kinds, a hovawart, GSD's, Mal's Rott's, and before I got there a Golden was titled to Sch III.
We train for fun, and we put the screws to the dogs that are thought to be breeding quality. We test the crap out of them, because they need it and os does the breed. This includes show and working line GSD's. i've worked a couple showline GSD's in protection and there were a couple that I really liked. Granted those people were just there for protection and I never got to see the dog trial or do the OB and tracking, so just how good they were, i'll never know.
But more often than not, we're training showline GSD's just for the owners to have fun with their dog because the dogs don't have it in them to do it all for real. it's easy to get good OB, it's easy to get good tracking, it's isn't all that hard to make a dog bite a sleeve either. But it's pretty tough to do all three well on the same day, but I keep seeing SchH III's from Germany coming over that still can't heel???? still can't understand that one.
But there were a couple really, really nice showlines that did nice work in all 3 phases and could pass the toughest of tests. Strong nerve, Great drive, great structure. He sired two litters for the guy that owned him, before he had to sell him because of travel and no time. It was a **** shame, this dog produced great working pups with the structure showline people wanted, and none of the big conformation breeders would think of breeding him. Too much for them I guess and he wasn't "red" enough is what lots of them said.
I've seen more instances similiar to know that show breeders in GSD's that produce the most puppies dont' give 2 shits about working ability contrary to what they say. There have been some good working dogs and they DON"T breed to them, and they have their excuses, er, reasons, and they still keep producing big fluff, black and red dogs that can't do jack in terms of work. Keep up the good work
There may be a few out there trying to do right, but at the same time, i've gotten to know a lot of people that talk about it on the interent and have seen the dogs that these interent experts rave about in their work and almost pee myself when I see the actual product. I guess perception is really everything.
But anyway, I guess my point is, the show crowd is much larger than the working crowd, and it irks me that a GSD is a working dog and most of the show crowd do nothing but pay lip service to it. We have to do a working trial and conformation show every year. The working trial gets hardly any entries and hardly any spectators, the conformation show is full of dogs and people all thinking their dogs are it, and promoting and selling them as such. I went to the fricking Nationals a couple weeks ago with 3 or 4 slots going to the world team to trial at the WUSV and if there were 200 spectators i'd be shocked, on a beautiful sunny weekend.
Triple that will sit on a mud soaked field for a conformation show to watch a dog run around a ring after a squeeky toy then do two bites and if they hang on by a canine the crowd goes nuts. No OB, no Tracking and pathetic bitework,it's sad.
I guess i'm a little jealous at the following, a little scorned that some of us work so hard to maintain a breed and not many seem to care. I"m a little irritated that a fluffy black and red dog that is too large and heavy with little to no drive or nerve and can't even heel but is schH III can sire puppies for 5K each and itself can sell for 30K or more and the dogs we train that actually serve a purpose are said by large conformation breeders and spread by their following that you can't live with them in the house and you can't trust them with kids, etc, etc,etc, just to create a bigger market for their shell's of dogs. That's why i'm miffed at it, i'm not ashamed to admit it.
I love my dogs as companions, they are that first and foremost, but they are also a working breed and will be tested and worked as such. Although their work isn't a job, they do get tested.
while technically being in a conformation show really does nothing to change a dog, i'm not really sure how to argue something as obvious as the split between working and show dogs of the same breed.
I have no problems with people showing their dogs. I know lots of people that do, and they love their dogs and work at what they do, but it is a far cry from testing a working dog.
I know why I tend to get a little irritated when showline stuff gets mentioned, it's because I do own and train working dogs. We are an open club as well and have a BC, bully breeds of all kinds, a hovawart, GSD's, Mal's Rott's, and before I got there a Golden was titled to Sch III.
We train for fun, and we put the screws to the dogs that are thought to be breeding quality. We test the crap out of them, because they need it and os does the breed. This includes show and working line GSD's. i've worked a couple showline GSD's in protection and there were a couple that I really liked. Granted those people were just there for protection and I never got to see the dog trial or do the OB and tracking, so just how good they were, i'll never know.
But more often than not, we're training showline GSD's just for the owners to have fun with their dog because the dogs don't have it in them to do it all for real. it's easy to get good OB, it's easy to get good tracking, it's isn't all that hard to make a dog bite a sleeve either. But it's pretty tough to do all three well on the same day, but I keep seeing SchH III's from Germany coming over that still can't heel???? still can't understand that one.
But there were a couple really, really nice showlines that did nice work in all 3 phases and could pass the toughest of tests. Strong nerve, Great drive, great structure. He sired two litters for the guy that owned him, before he had to sell him because of travel and no time. It was a **** shame, this dog produced great working pups with the structure showline people wanted, and none of the big conformation breeders would think of breeding him. Too much for them I guess and he wasn't "red" enough is what lots of them said.
I've seen more instances similiar to know that show breeders in GSD's that produce the most puppies dont' give 2 shits about working ability contrary to what they say. There have been some good working dogs and they DON"T breed to them, and they have their excuses, er, reasons, and they still keep producing big fluff, black and red dogs that can't do jack in terms of work. Keep up the good work
There may be a few out there trying to do right, but at the same time, i've gotten to know a lot of people that talk about it on the interent and have seen the dogs that these interent experts rave about in their work and almost pee myself when I see the actual product. I guess perception is really everything.
But anyway, I guess my point is, the show crowd is much larger than the working crowd, and it irks me that a GSD is a working dog and most of the show crowd do nothing but pay lip service to it. We have to do a working trial and conformation show every year. The working trial gets hardly any entries and hardly any spectators, the conformation show is full of dogs and people all thinking their dogs are it, and promoting and selling them as such. I went to the fricking Nationals a couple weeks ago with 3 or 4 slots going to the world team to trial at the WUSV and if there were 200 spectators i'd be shocked, on a beautiful sunny weekend.
Triple that will sit on a mud soaked field for a conformation show to watch a dog run around a ring after a squeeky toy then do two bites and if they hang on by a canine the crowd goes nuts. No OB, no Tracking and pathetic bitework,it's sad.
I guess i'm a little jealous at the following, a little scorned that some of us work so hard to maintain a breed and not many seem to care. I"m a little irritated that a fluffy black and red dog that is too large and heavy with little to no drive or nerve and can't even heel but is schH III can sire puppies for 5K each and itself can sell for 30K or more and the dogs we train that actually serve a purpose are said by large conformation breeders and spread by their following that you can't live with them in the house and you can't trust them with kids, etc, etc,etc, just to create a bigger market for their shell's of dogs. That's why i'm miffed at it, i'm not ashamed to admit it.
S
I love seeing Bull mastiffs in the ring. Probably one of the most powerful breeds in existence. They have mass but are athletic for their size. That I love.
Dobermans. Powerful looking dogs, but one of the most elegant and sharp looking breeds out there at the same time. They look extremely quick on their feet.
Rottweilers. Also another powerful looking dog and probably one of the most intimidating. I love how they move. Some people might underestimate how fast these dogs are for their large size. But there is something about a good rottie head piece that I absolutely LOVE.
Chihuahuas. I love seeing these little guys out in the ring. So very tiny, but so confident. I absolutely love their zest for life.
I really like this rottie in particular...
Chihuahua!!!
Dobermans. Powerful looking dogs, but one of the most elegant and sharp looking breeds out there at the same time. They look extremely quick on their feet.
Rottweilers. Also another powerful looking dog and probably one of the most intimidating. I love how they move. Some people might underestimate how fast these dogs are for their large size. But there is something about a good rottie head piece that I absolutely LOVE.
Chihuahuas. I love seeing these little guys out in the ring. So very tiny, but so confident. I absolutely love their zest for life.
I really like this rottie in particular...
Chihuahua!!!
Ooops!! Sorry for the large pics guys!
Just kidding folks.... post away.
If you don't like dogs in shows and can't think of any that impress you then maybe just skip this thread. If you can think of a working dog that impresses the heck out of you and you have a good picture of it working, post that.
Why is Kirby's story sad and demonstrating the not so good side of showing? I read the links but they all seem happy?! Someone explain?
Scroll down to kirbys story, its really quite sad
There are many sad stories in the show world and other. There are also many happy stories. Underdog makes it to the bigs, those type. I love those and I sit around sniffling during the dog shows when I hear those types. LOL
I am such a wimp!
Here is another breed that I always thought were cute.
I can't say that they have ever WOWED me but I think they have such a sweet look to them. There is a man at our kennel club that has one and he looks and moves just like his dog. It is a the cutest thing.
Clumber Spaniel
I am such a wimp!
Here is another breed that I always thought were cute.
I can't say that they have ever WOWED me but I think they have such a sweet look to them. There is a man at our kennel club that has one and he looks and moves just like his dog. It is a the cutest thing.
Clumber Spaniel
i can list several working dogs that have blown me away unfortunately there are very few or no pics of most them readily available on line but.
weatherford ben blows me away, not just because he was a phenominal hog & cow dog that literally bayed himself to unconsciousness rather than quit to get a drink but because he reproduced the same. because of this not only did ben found his line but his best pups founded lines as well like Conn's Randy, Wright's Bounty Hunter, Wright's Yellow Jacket, & Montana Bounty Hunter which all came off Randy Wright's yard.
and several bulldogs like Hines Snowbird, Stout's Boss Hog & Oujia and the beasts they created Hog Hammer, JJ & Wild Woman who can be seen here.
ABOUT US
and several Dogos like Allen, Toro, Lola, Jaque, Ata & Cumpa de Calfucara and Bombom de los Medanos and Tango de la Tarascada. again the ability to reproduce superlative working dogs is a huge part of the attraction. most of these can be seen here, but be warned many graphic pics of injured dogs and slain boars.
De Calfucura - Dogo Cazador - Dogoman
weatherford ben blows me away, not just because he was a phenominal hog & cow dog that literally bayed himself to unconsciousness rather than quit to get a drink but because he reproduced the same. because of this not only did ben found his line but his best pups founded lines as well like Conn's Randy, Wright's Bounty Hunter, Wright's Yellow Jacket, & Montana Bounty Hunter which all came off Randy Wright's yard.
and several bulldogs like Hines Snowbird, Stout's Boss Hog & Oujia and the beasts they created Hog Hammer, JJ & Wild Woman who can be seen here.
ABOUT US
and several Dogos like Allen, Toro, Lola, Jaque, Ata & Cumpa de Calfucara and Bombom de los Medanos and Tango de la Tarascada. again the ability to reproduce superlative working dogs is a huge part of the attraction. most of these can be seen here, but be warned many graphic pics of injured dogs and slain boars.
De Calfucura - Dogo Cazador - Dogoman
This was interesting; my cousin imported several Bulldogs from Hungary; registered; kennel club bulldogs; they bred and whelped naturally; no A.I. and C-section. Taller on the leg, head was cleaner. She never showed them; so I don't know if they would have done well here in North America; but they were pointed in Hungary.
Not a purebred; but an attempt to bring something to the table; the Doberon - Beauceron X Doberman cross. The attempt I believe was to lessen the chance of the heart defect and to inject some working ability in the Doberman; but from what I've heard and seen in the Beauce; might be a neverending project and I don't think the one person that I'd heard do this continued; didn't get what she wanted.
I think the easiest thing to do would be to rewrite the standard; seems to be a flexible guideline anyway; just start flexing it back the other way.
Not a purebred; but an attempt to bring something to the table; the Doberon - Beauceron X Doberman cross. The attempt I believe was to lessen the chance of the heart defect and to inject some working ability in the Doberman; but from what I've heard and seen in the Beauce; might be a neverending project and I don't think the one person that I'd heard do this continued; didn't get what she wanted.
I think the easiest thing to do would be to rewrite the standard; seems to be a flexible guideline anyway; just start flexing it back the other way.
I'm not a fan of dog shows myself as they are just breeding mainly for pretty dogs, not always temp or health. The Newf is an example of a breed ruined by show breeders over the years. Once a hardy working dog that required minimum coat care is now a big hairy dog that is scissored to extremes for show. The temperament in the Newf is suffering as well. That's not good.
As far as outcrossing I'm all for it to better the health of our inbred mixed breeds (otherwise called purebreds ). There are only a few natural purebred dogs that evolved due to natural selection but most are man made mixed breeds bred until they "created" a purebred. I could start a new purebred dog breeding program and within a few generations create a new purebred. Purebred dogs are not natural and we are not "ruining:" them by outcrossing. Many breeders do not understand genetics and the dangers of the genetic pickle many of their breeds are in. The bulldog is a prime example and I find bulldog breeding outrageous and horrible and cruel.
I think it's a smart idea to outcross even with some of the breeds that created the purebred in the first place. Bring the Tibetan Mastiff back into the Newf breedings, Rottie into Dobe breedings etc. Breed for health not for some social plateau that breeders are striving for. It's a notch on the belt to be the best in the show world and I've seen many unworthy dogs put ahead of excellent dogs because of who is handling them...thus the reason many newbies get professional handlers on their dogs (not always tho as we have a few cleints starting out showing and have gotten BIS etc and ticked off many other handlers, these dogs were very pretty and caught the attention of the judge). My Sister used to show a bit but she saw it for what it was but still grooms dogs for show and handles once in a while. She is no longer "known" in the show world by many new judges. One show a friend of hers asked her to handle her top female as she was campaigning another dog at the same time. My Sister was not even looked at and was dumped. The next day under the same judge the owner well known in the show world took the same dog under the same judge with the same dogs and took BOB then BIS!!! The judge explained she didn't recognize the lady on the dog the day before...of please! IMO dog shows are just a beauty contest and should only be looked at as a fun pastime. Just as I think the top winning miss America should not dictate who is the best neither should a dog show. Now if they had to get working titles etc on top of the conformation title then that might be different as with dogs their physical conformation is shaped by behavior conformation.
As far as outcrossing I'm all for it to better the health of our inbred mixed breeds (otherwise called purebreds
). There are only a few natural purebred dogs that evolved due to natural selection but most are man made mixed breeds bred until they "created" a purebred. I could start a new purebred dog breeding program and within a few generations create a new purebred. Purebred dogs are not natural and we are not "ruining:" them by outcrossing. Many breeders do not understand genetics and the dangers of the genetic pickle many of their breeds are in. The bulldog is a prime example and I find bulldog breeding outrageous and horrible and cruel. I think it's a smart idea to outcross even with some of the breeds that created the purebred in the first place. Bring the Tibetan Mastiff back into the Newf breedings, Rottie into Dobe breedings etc. Breed for health not for some social plateau that breeders are striving for. It's a notch on the belt to be the best in the show world and I've seen many unworthy dogs put ahead of excellent dogs because of who is handling them...thus the reason many newbies get professional handlers on their dogs (not always tho as we have a few cleints starting out showing and have gotten BIS etc and ticked off many other handlers, these dogs were very pretty and caught the attention of the judge). My Sister used to show a bit but she saw it for what it was but still grooms dogs for show and handles once in a while. She is no longer "known" in the show world by many new judges. One show a friend of hers asked her to handle her top female as she was campaigning another dog at the same time. My Sister was not even looked at and was dumped. The next day under the same judge the owner well known in the show world took the same dog under the same judge with the same dogs and took BOB then BIS!!! The judge explained she didn't recognize the lady on the dog the day before...of please! IMO dog shows are just a beauty contest and should only be looked at as a fun pastime. Just as I think the top winning miss America should not dictate who is the best neither should a dog show. Now if they had to get working titles etc on top of the conformation title then that might be different as with dogs their physical conformation is shaped by behavior conformation.
Hopefully we won't have to worry about that anymore... now that the gene responsible for cardio in Boxers has been identified, hopefully Dobes will be next.
You know, I'm sick and tired of hearing this. ESPECIALLY after hearing about the huge breakthrough for Boxers mentioned above. You know who PAID for all of that research? The Boxer Club of America - which is mostly made up of SHOW people.
Many show people do extensive health testing, moreso than some "working" breeders and definitely more than BYBs. SHOW breeders don't ruin the health of breeds, BYBs ruin the health of breeds. In my opinion.
This attitude of "the evil show breeders made our wonderful ourebred dogs unhealthy" shows a great deal of ignorance (again, IMO.) If you've never seen the lengths show breeders go to in an effort to produce the healthiest dog possible, you need to actually meet some show breeders, get involved with a breed, etc. Then you'll see how much they really do.
As for bringing Rottweilers into Dobes... What???? They're completely different breeds, with different characteristics and temperaments. Why on earth would we want to bring another unhealthy breed into ours? How about we just extensively health test, and studyt pedigrees to breed the healthiest *purebred* Dobermans possible?
You know, I'm sick and tired of hearing this. ESPECIALLY after hearing about the huge breakthrough for Boxers mentioned above. You know who PAID for all of that research? The Boxer Club of America - which is mostly made up of SHOW people.
Many show people do extensive health testing, moreso than some "working" breeders and definitely more than BYBs. SHOW breeders don't ruin the health of breeds, BYBs ruin the health of breeds. In my opinion.
This attitude of "the evil show breeders made our wonderful ourebred dogs unhealthy" shows a great deal of ignorance (again, IMO.) If you've never seen the lengths show breeders go to in an effort to produce the healthiest dog possible, you need to actually meet some show breeders, get involved with a breed, etc. Then you'll see how much they really do.
As for bringing Rottweilers into Dobes... What???? They're completely different breeds, with different characteristics and temperaments. Why on earth would we want to bring another unhealthy breed into ours? How about we just extensively health test, and studyt pedigrees to breed the healthiest *purebred* Dobermans possible?
If things keep going they way they are we will HAVE to outcross. You can only 'refine' something so far until its got no diversity.
What you want to outcross too I have no idea.. If judges could allow for a little more phenotypic diversity that along with health testing would do a long way to alleviate the genetic strain on purebred dogs.
Heath testing is great.. but if you breed to rigorously to a 'look' you are just setting yourself up for need new health tests.
What you want to outcross too I have no idea.. If judges could allow for a little more phenotypic diversity that along with health testing would do a long way to alleviate the genetic strain on purebred dogs.
Heath testing is great.. but if you breed to rigorously to a 'look' you are just setting yourself up for need new health tests.
