The preservation of the pure bred dog..

[Dekka]

Ok so lets say you take a breed like goldens (LARGE population right?)

And you cull all those who won't swim/retrieve, and you cull all those who shy at gun shot. You cull all those who don't have the golden easy happy temperament. You further remove any that don't have conformation champion before their name. Then you test them all and remove any that don't come back excellent on all test, and you cull all those who have recessive issues in their lines. (dominant issues are easy to get rid of).

How many dogs will you have left to breed together? Do this every generation.. how long before their gene pool starts making the cheetah gene pool look deep by comparison?

 

[Dekka]

yes and what happens if the gran puppies get that same problem?.Problems can jump generations!.
Why don't we,just,agree to disagree!.

Because that IS NOT HOW IT WORKS. You can believe the earth is flat and that does not make it so.

Golden.. do you know basic mendalian genetics.. ie punett squares and what not?

 

[borzoimom]

I do believe that you,as breeder can decide what you want from yr dogs but you can't make people agree with you if they don't believe that you're right!.I do believe that the aptitude test should be manditory in all breeds and dogs that don't pass it,shouldn't be bred!.
A golden that is scared of gunfire,won't swim or retrieve a duck shouldn't be bred!.
A hovawart that doesn't have the intinct to guard or protect you shouldn't be bred!. Beauty is one thing but it's not everything!!.For me, OFA,hips,elbows,eyes,heart and thyroid testing are manditory and on several generations!.

In France they would not be accepted to breed- here in the US they would..And many times to the down fall of a breed.

 

[drmom777]

Removing recessive traits from a gene pool without a DNA marker for the trait is well nigh impossible. A recessive trait cannot become dominant, ever. I think you should educate yourself on genetics before proclaiming yourself an authority on the topic.

Every single dog out there is carrying some kind of undesirable recessive. i guarantee it. There are no "clean" dogs or "clean" lines. You, yourself carry all sorts of undesirable genes. Knowing this, wise breeders pick and choose which positive traits they are want to breed for and which negative traits they are willing to risk. We just happen to be focusing on Penny's elbows here, but, like every dog out there, Penny is a mix of positive and negative traits. Red decided her posityives outweighed her negatives. You disagree. The current owners of the pups seem ecstatic, so i believe they agree with Red.

But your original premise, that only "clean" dogs should be bred to each other, is fundamentally impossible, so this entire thread is a waste.

 

[Beanie]

If someone were to breed two PRA dogs sure as shooting, you will end up with PRA pups- so why take that risk?

DJD1 elbows are not the same as PRA. The comparison does not hold.

Meanwhile if someone wants a what-ever breed they can get one from a rescue.

People don't. If they want a puppy 99% of the time they look for a breeder. It's a fact of life. You can live in your fantasy world where the demand for dogs is met by dogs in shelters and rescue but it's exactly that - a fantasy world.
Furthermore, people who got a dog from Red wanted their dogs for a specific purpose. ALL of the puppies from this litter you are contesting are currently showing. A dog from rescue would almost certainly not be worthy of showing and ABSOLUTELY certainly would not be worthy of breeding because of the unknown history and background. So THESE particular dog owners would ALSO not be going to a rescue for their dog.

Personally I would not buy a puppy with a degenerative disease parents.

Please stop referring to a DJD1 elbow as a "degenerative disease" because, as Red explained, it is not one.

Same reason why collie eye ended up in 95 percent of the breed over time.

DJD1 elbows are not the same as collie eye. The comparison does not hold.

Or deafness in Dalmations

DJD1 elbows are not the same as deafness. The comparison does not hold.

Or dwarfism in Malamutes?

DJD1 elbows are not the same as dwarfism. The comparison does not hold.


ALL BREEDS are different and ALL BREEDS have their own specific set of problems. Until you have done enough research into a particular breed and truly understand, then you should not sit back in judgment. Sit back and try to learn something if you have concerns or questions - it looks to me that Red is a great person to learn from when it comes to rotties.
Furthermore, if you would read the response to my question that I asked her (the same question that you completely ignored and flew into some kind of bizarre flurry chanting about how the dog is bad the dog is bad she shouldn't have been bred it's horrible; you know, the one where I asked you what any of your blather had to do with my actual question?) you would see that somebody actually evaluated Penny's x-rays - the same x-ray that another individual evaluated and found the elbow to be DJD1 - and found her elbows to ALL be NORMAL.

 

[borzoimom]

Ok so lets say you take a breed like goldens (LARGE population right?)

And you cull all those who won't swim/retrieve, and you cull all those who shy at gun shot. You cull all those who don't have the golden easy happy temperament. You further remove any that don't have conformation champion before their name. Then you test them all and remove any that don't come back excellent on all test, and you cull all those who have recessive issues in their lines. (dominant issues are easy to get rid of).

How many dogs will you have left to breed together? Do this every generation.. how long before their gene pool starts making the cheetah gene pool look deep by comparison?

YOu do know that over 100,000 goldens are registered? And do you know how many ( state by state multiple) golden rescues numbers are outrageious?
We in Borzois have one national rescue as our numbers are so low. The goldens numbers are through the roof! Perfect example of if a popular breed the true breeders should really look at as to whether or not they are right to breed..

 

[Dekka]

Isnt it unethical to breed with a known defect? Even if it is, as stated, plaguing the breed? If its in the breed as a plague- why not try to get it out by not breeding those that have it???????????? That to me is exactly the same as a BYB as they do not care what genetic disorders are in a breed.= they choose to ignore it .. Either you love the breed, make the decissions on what to pass on, or you dont.. Eye opener huh? It needs to stop somewhere and only does by those that really care about their breed to make it better for the next generation and preserve what it was meant to be.
The US is the one place that seems to be so accepting as European registries will not give breeding rights to a dog that doesnt come up to " par"..

Not if there is little chance of passing it on. And it depends on the issue. If there was a miniscule risk that the pups might get it, but it was mild and not painful or life threatening. Then if the dog is exceptional then breed it. Track the pups.. if they grow up clean and clear then there is no reason not to rebreed the mom/sire.

You still have yet to answer my questions! That would be an eye opener.

 

[Beanie]

YOu do know that over 100,000 goldens are registered? And do you know how many ( state by state multiple) golden rescues numbers are outrageious?

Nice dodge, but answer the actual question:

And you cull all those who won't swim/retrieve, and you cull all those who shy at gun shot. You cull all those who don't have the golden easy happy temperament. You further remove any that don't have conformation champion before their name. Then you test them all and remove any that don't come back excellent on all test, and you cull all those who have recessive issues in their lines. (dominant issues are easy to get rid of).

How many dogs will you have left to breed together? Do this every generation.. how long before their gene pool starts making the cheetah gene pool look deep by comparison?

 

[Dekka]

YOu do know that over 100,000 goldens are registered? And do you know how many ( state by state multiple) golden rescues numbers are outrageious?
We in Borzois have one national rescue as our numbers are so low. The goldens numbers are through the roof! Perfect example of if a popular breed the true breeders should really look at as to whether or not they are right to breed..

I have used the number 100 000 and goldens before. But how many are in rescues is totally irrelevant to this discussion and has no bearing what so ever in this breeding discussion.

Unless you can explain how byb who don't keep in touch with their buyers affects the genes of the dogs owned by others...

(really what I think needs to be done is make mandatory chipping, and any dog that comes into a shelter or rescue gets sent back to the breeder. That way if the breeder gets many returns they might not be so quick to breed)

 

[borzoimom]

DJD1 elbows are not the same as PRA. The comparison does not hold.



Please stop referring to a DJD1 elbow as a "degenerative disease" because, as Red explained, it is not one.


DJD1 elbows are not the same as collie eye. The comparison does not hold.



ALL BREEDS are different and ALL BREEDS have their own specific set of problems. Until you have done enough research into a particular breed and truly understand, then you should not sit back in judgment.

Its a known genetic defect.. as Evident by being in the breed in large numbers.. To breed and ignore it is not what I wouldNOT even remotely do. If you do not address the problems and not breed it, you are adding to the problem in the breed.
And DJD = degenerative joint disease .. That is what it says. And that is what it means .

 

[CharlieDog]

Obviously BM (and a few others) are sitting at their computers covering their eyes with their fingers stuffed in their ears singing "I CANT HEAR YOOOOOOOOUUUUU!!!!"

The unreasonable cannot be reasoned with. This should count as a blatant personal attack and BM should be banned.

 

[Dekka]

Its a known genetic defect.. as Evident by being in the breed in large numbers.. To breed and ignore it is not what I wouldNOT even remotely do. If you do not address the problems and not breed it, you are adding to the problem in the breed.

Do you understand punctuation? I have asked you some questions. But you keep spouting the same mis information again and again.

You don't seem to have a grasp on how genetics work. I can recommend some good books if you want to learn.

 

[Beanie]

To breed and ignore it is not what I wouldNOT even remotely do. If you do not address the problems and not breed it, you are adding to the problem in the breed.

Red did not ignore it. She carefully calculated and picked a sire that would compliment her bitch and counter-act with Penny's situation.
She did address the problem. And she did not, actually, add to the problem in the breed - again, if you would look at the progeny, you would know that.

"Addressing" a problem in your breed does not automatically mean "DO NOT BREED."

 

[borzoimom]

I have used the number 100 000 and goldens before. But how many are in rescues is totally irrelevant to this discussion and has no bearing what so ever in this breeding discussion.

QUOTE]
Because it is 100,000 dogs that need homes. ie if someone wanted a golden there are 100 grand to choose from. So why breed a golden unless the dog can really further the breed- health free, good working to do their purpose etc.. Its that simple.. No reason to produce more puppies- there are already 100 grand needing homes..

 

[Beanie]

There we go, I was waiting for that...
Clear admission that BM doesn't believe in the breeding of dogs at all.

 

[Dekka]

AHAHA ok

So lets say all the responsible golden breeders stopped breeding and left it up to the byb and puppy millers. (and we all know how great they are at health testing) What then? All we would have is a genetic mess and have to start testing and tracking health issues all over again.

So you say because some people are unethical/uneducated we should throw away all that is good in a breed and turn the genetic heritage over to the millers and BYB?

WOW personally I would love to see rescues empty as the byb and millers have been shut down.. not up production so everyone can get a dog from a rescue!

 

[drmom777]

Once again, Borzoimom, you need to clarify your definition of a clean dog or a clean line of dogs. A specimen may be "clean" for a known problem, but that does not make it or its line 'clean" for anything other than that one problem. It is the job of the breeder to asses the importance of various traits in thir animal, decide if, on balance she is worth breeding to pass on her positive traits, and, if so, find a mate that mitigates her flaws. This is true for every single breeding out there.

I think that it is important for every breeder of animals to have some kind of understanding of simple genetics so that they can intelligently make these decisions. If i were you i would take Dekka up on that offer of a suggested reading list.

 

[borzoimom]

Red did not ignore it. She carefully calculated and picked a sire that would compliment her bitch and counter-act with Penny's situation.
She did address the problem. And she did not, actually, add to the problem in the breed - again, if you would look at the progeny, you would know that.

"Addressing" a problem in your breed does not automatically mean "DO NOT BREED."

LOL>.. it does when you breed a dog with the problem.. Its like collie breeders years ago.. I am sure they dismissed not normal eyes also- and look at what is wrong with the breed now? I believe it was quoted at 95 percent of the breed have it? And why? Because it was dismissed.. If they really wanted to do something they should have only bred normal eyed dogs.. But opps- that did not give "type" of the skull and 'expression" of the face became the one of the high points of the breed.
YOU DO NOT breed something out of a breed by breeding it into a breed... That makes no sense whats-so-ever..

 

[MafiaPrincess]

The unreasonable cannot be reasoned with. This should count as a blatant personal attack and BM should be banned.

One can only hope. Isn't like this is the first personal attack. Guess there's no guess work in why she's banned on endless other dog forums.

 

[borzoimom]

Once again, Borzoimom, you need to clarify your definition of a clean dog or a clean line of dogs. A specimen may be "clean" for a known problem, but that does not make it or its line 'clean" for anything other than that one problem. It is the job of the breeder to asses the importance of various traits in thir animal, decide if, on balance she is worth breeding to pass on her positive traits, and, if so, find a mate that mitigates her flaws. This is true for every single breeding out there.

I think that it is important for every breeder of animals to have some kind of understanding of simple genetics so that they can intelligently make these decisions. If i were you i would take Dekka up on that offer of a suggested reading list.

I agree but the dog should also be without the genetic defects of the breed to carry on for future generations. In this case the breeding stock were not " clean".. And if a breed has a genetic disease thats degenerative, then the off spring should not be bred until the parents have been cleared of having it. Otherwise- its no different than what is going on with say Cavaliers and degenerative heart disease.