Summer and raw round 3
- Thread starter Laurelin
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Okay just to point out:
I never said raw was a bad diet for a small dog. Never. In fact I have fed it to a few of my other papillons and my past sheltie without a problem. I like the benefits of raw and have seen how well dogs can do on it with my own eyes. Beau, Mia, and Trey all snapped raw up right away the first time it was set in front of them.
I have never said diet was breed specific either. I HAVE said that certain breeds seem prone to having less than stellar appetites. Like I said before, Shelties are a breed that tend towards being chow hounds that will eat anything in sight. They are also prone to gaining weight easily and being over weight. The papillons go the opposite way and not just with raw, but with kibble too. I have found they are very picky, especially when it comes to texture of food. This can be a problem when transitioning to a new food. The plus side though is they are much much easier to keep lean. Anyone who has had papillons will tell you they are very finicky about their food.
I have also said that small dogs need to eat more than large dogs in regards to their size and they also need to eat more frequently.
I have not given up too easily. This has been an ongoing thing for quite some time now as most people on the forum are aware of. I have been given a lot of advice for the past months. Anyone who has been following this could tell that Summer is continually improving in regards to raw. She has gone from not touching anything to eating chunks of raw chicken and ground raw. However, this is not a balanced diet, hence this thread.
I do not believe it is simply a matter of 'guidance' as you said. Some dogs will refuse a food they don't like to the point it is detrimental to them. A dog eating simply enough to survive is not going to benefit from a raw diet at all.
As I said before, a dog must eat said diet in order to receive any benefits from it.
I never said raw was a bad diet for a small dog. Never. In fact I have fed it to a few of my other papillons and my past sheltie without a problem. I like the benefits of raw and have seen how well dogs can do on it with my own eyes. Beau, Mia, and Trey all snapped raw up right away the first time it was set in front of them.
I have never said diet was breed specific either. I HAVE said that certain breeds seem prone to having less than stellar appetites. Like I said before, Shelties are a breed that tend towards being chow hounds that will eat anything in sight. They are also prone to gaining weight easily and being over weight. The papillons go the opposite way and not just with raw, but with kibble too. I have found they are very picky, especially when it comes to texture of food. This can be a problem when transitioning to a new food. The plus side though is they are much much easier to keep lean. Anyone who has had papillons will tell you they are very finicky about their food.
I have also said that small dogs need to eat more than large dogs in regards to their size and they also need to eat more frequently.
I have not given up too easily. This has been an ongoing thing for quite some time now as most people on the forum are aware of. I have been given a lot of advice for the past months. Anyone who has been following this could tell that Summer is continually improving in regards to raw. She has gone from not touching anything to eating chunks of raw chicken and ground raw. However, this is not a balanced diet, hence this thread.
I do not believe it is simply a matter of 'guidance' as you said. Some dogs will refuse a food they don't like to the point it is detrimental to them. A dog eating simply enough to survive is not going to benefit from a raw diet at all.
As I said before, a dog must eat said diet in order to receive any benefits from it.
On the small dog idea, though Bruzer isn't real small, he is considered a small breed. A couple years back we had a problem with him trying to swallow chunks and one time had to give him CPR because he was pretty much flatlined from choking on a hunk of pork bone.
I posted some questions on a dedicated raw feeding group, many members who were pretty hard core and promoted prey model type feeding. I was told that I should be giving him huge hunks, bigger than his head, to gnaw on so he couldn't swallow bones big enough to choke him. They said let him eat as much as he wanted, and then fast him for 4-5 days- much like a dog in the wild might have to contend with. Some of the people giving this advice were other pug and small dog owners. They fed this way all the time- a 5lb pork shoulder, let the dog eat on it until they stopped, pick it up, and no food for several days. They all seemed to have success with this type of thinking.
Just another viewpoint. I didn't take their advice. While I do fast my dogs once every 7-10 days, not feeding them for 4-5 days in a row didn't seem prudent to me. So if these people had success feeding their small dogs this way, I'm sort of inclined to believe that it's more the mental state of the people doing the feeding vs the real needs of the dog. I didn't feel right doing it either, but I can understand where they were coming from. None of them ever said anything about hypoglycemia or anything like that to worry about.
I posted some questions on a dedicated raw feeding group, many members who were pretty hard core and promoted prey model type feeding. I was told that I should be giving him huge hunks, bigger than his head, to gnaw on so he couldn't swallow bones big enough to choke him. They said let him eat as much as he wanted, and then fast him for 4-5 days- much like a dog in the wild might have to contend with. Some of the people giving this advice were other pug and small dog owners. They fed this way all the time- a 5lb pork shoulder, let the dog eat on it until they stopped, pick it up, and no food for several days. They all seemed to have success with this type of thinking.
Just another viewpoint. I didn't take their advice. While I do fast my dogs once every 7-10 days, not feeding them for 4-5 days in a row didn't seem prudent to me. So if these people had success feeding their small dogs this way, I'm sort of inclined to believe that it's more the mental state of the people doing the feeding vs the real needs of the dog. I didn't feel right doing it either, but I can understand where they were coming from. None of them ever said anything about hypoglycemia or anything like that to worry about.
For the most part the only bones we've tried so far have been chicken.
As far as hypoglycemia goes as long as the dog is over 4 lbs, it's not *too* much of a worry. I have only ever had one problem with it and it was when Summer decided to fast herself for 2 days. It was not full blown hypoglycemia but from all the signs her blood sugar got way too low. It is not something I would risk again.
I would never advocate fasting a small dog 4-5 days at all. I really think doing that is dangerous.
As far as hypoglycemia goes as long as the dog is over 4 lbs, it's not *too* much of a worry. I have only ever had one problem with it and it was when Summer decided to fast herself for 2 days. It was not full blown hypoglycemia but from all the signs her blood sugar got way too low. It is not something I would risk again.
I would never advocate fasting a small dog 4-5 days at all. I really think doing that is dangerous.
I was going to type up a response to this, but re-reading it makes me realize there's no point. On behalf of 80% of the people reading this thread, I will say this, though:
Laur, have I mentioned lately that I love you?
I haven't been keeping up with all of Summer's eating issues, but you've tried feeding raw to her with stuff like garlic in it to get her interest, right? That's pretty basic, but it's the best suggestion I've got beyond a food processor or grinder.
Laur, have I mentioned lately that I love you?
I haven't been keeping up with all of Summer's eating issues, but you've tried feeding raw to her with stuff like garlic in it to get her interest, right? That's pretty basic, but it's the best suggestion I've got beyond a food processor or grinder.
So the ones who didn't balk, you fed with no problem but the one who said, "i don't wanna" you just let her make that decision? That is lack of leadership, guidance, and motivation. You and the dog had a disagreement and the dog won.
Thats and excuse, not a reason not to feed an appropriate diet. Others can do it and so can you. You are not a dog novice.
They are picky and finicky because they are allowed to be. Their owners think they are fragile little toys and are afraid they will damage them if they hurt their feelings.
This is just smoke and mirrors. It has nothing to do with the problem. It's another excuse not to upset the little doggie.
I'm glad to see she is making progress but you seem to have surrendered on the terms of eating bone-in meat. It is still possible. You HAVE given up too easily. You don't give up until the dog is eating properly.
Then it's a matter of motivation.
True and thats the reason not to surrender to the will of a tiny little doggie. This is where leadership comes in. If the dog sees you as a leader, she will be much more likely to do as you wish.
Good luck, and please don't give up. You can win this. You are the human. You are supposed to be smarter. Dogs are easy to outsmart.
Thats and excuse, not a reason not to feed an appropriate diet. Others can do it and so can you. You are not a dog novice.
They are picky and finicky because they are allowed to be. Their owners think they are fragile little toys and are afraid they will damage them if they hurt their feelings.
This is just smoke and mirrors. It has nothing to do with the problem. It's another excuse not to upset the little doggie.
I'm glad to see she is making progress but you seem to have surrendered on the terms of eating bone-in meat. It is still possible. You HAVE given up too easily. You don't give up until the dog is eating properly.
Then it's a matter of motivation.
True and thats the reason not to surrender to the will of a tiny little doggie. This is where leadership comes in. If the dog sees you as a leader, she will be much more likely to do as you wish.
Good luck, and please don't give up. You can win this. You are the human. You are supposed to be smarter. Dogs are easy to outsmart.
I was going to type up a response to this, but re-reading it makes me realize there's no point. On behalf of 80% of the people reading this thread, I will say this, though:
BTW: Where do you get the 80% number? I think you just made it up.
I was going to type up a response to this, but re-reading it makes me realize there's no point. On behalf of 80% of the people reading this thread, I will say this, though:
Laur, have I mentioned lately that I love you?
I haven't been keeping up with all of Summer's eating issues, but you've tried feeding raw to her with stuff like garlic in it to get her interest, right? That's pretty basic, but it's the best suggestion I've got beyond a food processor or grinder.
Laur, have I mentioned lately that I love you?
I haven't been keeping up with all of Summer's eating issues, but you've tried feeding raw to her with stuff like garlic in it to get her interest, right? That's pretty basic, but it's the best suggestion I've got beyond a food processor or grinder.
I have tried adding some stuff to her food. It does peak the interest initially but she will not go past simply licking it for the most part.
So the ones who didn't balk, you fed with no problem but the one who said, "i don't wanna" you just let her make that decision? That is lack of leadership, guidance, and motivation. You and the dog had a disagreement and the dog won.
Thats and excuse, not a reason not to feed an appropriate diet. Others can do it and so can you. You are not a dog novice.
They are picky and finicky because they are allowed to be. Their owners think they are fragile little toys and are afraid they will damage them if they hurt their feelings.
This is just smoke and mirrors. It has nothing to do with the problem. It's another excuse not to upset the little doggie.
I'm glad to see she is making progress but you seem to have surrendered on the terms of eating bone-in meat. It is still possible. You HAVE given up too easily. You don't give up until the dog is eating properly.
Then it's a matter of motivation.
True and thats the reason not to surrender to the will of a tiny little doggie. This is where leadership comes in. If the dog sees you as a leader, she will be much more likely to do as you wish.
Good luck, and please don't give up. You can win this. You are the human. You are supposed to be smarter. Dogs are easy to outsmart.
Thats and excuse, not a reason not to feed an appropriate diet. Others can do it and so can you. You are not a dog novice.
They are picky and finicky because they are allowed to be. Their owners think they are fragile little toys and are afraid they will damage them if they hurt their feelings.
This is just smoke and mirrors. It has nothing to do with the problem. It's another excuse not to upset the little doggie.
I'm glad to see she is making progress but you seem to have surrendered on the terms of eating bone-in meat. It is still possible. You HAVE given up too easily. You don't give up until the dog is eating properly.
Then it's a matter of motivation.
True and thats the reason not to surrender to the will of a tiny little doggie. This is where leadership comes in. If the dog sees you as a leader, she will be much more likely to do as you wish.
Good luck, and please don't give up. You can win this. You are the human. You are supposed to be smarter. Dogs are easy to outsmart.
It's not simply a matter of "No, I don't want to" and I buckled. This is a dog that will and more importantly has refused food for a long enough time that she has made herself sick. It has nothing to do with size past the fact that 'wait it out' isn't much of an option with dogs this small. Some people might be comfortable risking it, but I am not.
Tell me specifically WITHOUT all this 'Be your dog's leader and guide her' how you would approach this dog. Exactly. What would you do to make her eat the food?
WOW!!! You are much too smart for me. With your foul language as the only argument you have obviously you win. :rofl1:
BTW: Where do you get the 80% number? I think you just made it up.
BTW: Where do you get the 80% number? I think you just made it up.
For what it's worth, my GTFO Kitten wasn't an argument. I figured that would be a waste of letters. It was more of a suggestion. A cute, furry little suggestion to soften the blow of being rude and unwanted.
I think if some of you guys would remove the delivery aspect of RFD's advice, and look at it with an open mind, it's all very sound. Maybe some people don't want to take that approach, but that doesn't make it wrong.
As far as small dogs having to eat more and more often- I disagree. You have to look at the metabolism of each individual dog. If I did a compare of my own dogs, Daisy by far has the fastest metabolism. I was feeding her 5lbs over 2 meals a day at one point and she still looked like a bag of bones. Bruzer has the slowest. If he gets more than 7-8oz a day, he balloons up real fast. Do I feel bad that he finishes his dinner in 5 seconds flat and then looks up at me for more? Nope, because I know that's all he needed to maintain a good weight for him. One meal, same as the rest get.
Laur, if you are serious about the raw thing, then you need to do whatever it takes to get her to eat a balanced diet, and stick with it. Grind the bones for now, at least she's getting what she needs. Maybe try searing a chicken wing in a little olive oil, not enough to cook it, but enough to make it more appetizing, and see how she responds to that. (not sure if you tried that yet, I haven't kept up on the other threads you've posted around this subject). Try another type of bone- like a pork chop from a shoulder, or a pork rib. Those are all soft bones like chicken.
As far as small dogs having to eat more and more often- I disagree. You have to look at the metabolism of each individual dog. If I did a compare of my own dogs, Daisy by far has the fastest metabolism. I was feeding her 5lbs over 2 meals a day at one point and she still looked like a bag of bones. Bruzer has the slowest. If he gets more than 7-8oz a day, he balloons up real fast. Do I feel bad that he finishes his dinner in 5 seconds flat and then looks up at me for more? Nope, because I know that's all he needed to maintain a good weight for him. One meal, same as the rest get.
Laur, if you are serious about the raw thing, then you need to do whatever it takes to get her to eat a balanced diet, and stick with it. Grind the bones for now, at least she's getting what she needs. Maybe try searing a chicken wing in a little olive oil, not enough to cook it, but enough to make it more appetizing, and see how she responds to that. (not sure if you tried that yet, I haven't kept up on the other threads you've posted around this subject). Try another type of bone- like a pork chop from a shoulder, or a pork rib. Those are all soft bones like chicken.
Gunnar gets picky. To the point that if I change brands of chicken, he won't eat. I put the food out, if he snubs it, I pick it up, and give it to him the next day. Sometimes it took 3 days, but he eventually ate. A dog will not starve itself, contrary to popular belief.
It's not about force feeding or domination or anything like that. It's about staying with the program and not letting the dog dictate what and when it eats.
It's not about force feeding or domination or anything like that. It's about staying with the program and not letting the dog dictate what and when it eats.
Again, you do not own a Papillon. Why is it that the two people who do are saying over and over again that they WILL starve themselves and yet people who don't have the breed are saying they won't.
If I allowed Ben he would have died of hypoglycemia. He hated eating that much.
We have asked RFD how he proposes we deal with it and he says become the pack leader. How? That is what I want to know. He has said don't starve the dog out and then says we give up too quickly. I want to know his suggestion.
If I allowed Ben he would have died of hypoglycemia. He hated eating that much.
We have asked RFD how he proposes we deal with it and he says become the pack leader. How? That is what I want to know. He has said don't starve the dog out and then says we give up too quickly. I want to know his suggestion.
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