Stop treating them like animals!!

[corgipower]

Yep, we used a rake. Plastic, mind you.

It's got so many ways to be helpful. It can block, it can guide, it can indicate direction, it can also, if need be, make physical contact with dog or sheep.

I don't agree with using my hands to strike a dog. But I don't disagree with some form of physical correction at times. And when a dog is working at that level of drive, physical corrections typically don't have the same kind of fallout that they might in other situations.

 

[sillysally]

I agree with Pops on this one...



Eh, I've seen it many times. If your in the right place at the right second, it works. It's not about the dog coming toward you. If the dog is hell bent on chasing stock, they aren't thinking about *where* they are going, they just chase. So if you get up in there and stop it, it's not about them coming toward you at all.

Also, if you've been around herding breeds WHILE THEY ARE WORKING, you know that a smack doesn't affect them much. Really. It makes them stop and think, most of the time.

I'll also throw out there that I wouldn't judge something because we wouldn't do it in a different situation. It's not all black and white, IMO.

Not judging, just don't think it would work with my dog. I think if she were in "the zone" she would shake it off and keep chasing. Or, she would realize the the smack was coming from a person and just avoid that person when she was deciding to chase something. Then again, this is not a herding situation and she's not a herding dog, so maybe that's different.

 

[Pops2]

keep in mind the purpose of smacking the dog isn't to be the actual correction like w/ a shock collar. it is to turn on the selective hearing so they will hear you when you tell them no or leave it. and the tried & true method that works w/ 95% of dogs is controlled exposure & a verbal or grabbibg the muzzle & a verbal. a very small percentage ignore you when you escalate to grabbing the muzzle & try to continue after what you're trying to stop them chasing. it is usually very smart stubborn ones that pretend they can't hear you even though you are physically holding them.
and no i really don't trust shock collars to be harmless. it is electricity flowing through the body, when it does that it is potentially burning & killing cells. it doesn't take a lot of juice to do it. also the dog doesn't necessarily understand that he is displeasing you. especially if you zap him from a mile away.

 

[corgipower]

keep in mind the purpose of smacking the dog isn't to be the actual correction like w/ a shock collar. it is to turn on the selective hearing so they will hear you when you tell them no or leave it.

Ah...
Gotcha.

Still not something I would do, simply because I'm not coordinated enough to pull it off in a way that is A) effective and B) without fallout.

and no i really don't trust shock collars to be harmless.

I don't either. I do think a shock collar is probably less harmful than a car or an angry bull or irritated horse hooves, but I will do everything possible to not use one first.

 

[Pops2]

i've tried them & still have one but i don't use it.

 

[Renee750il]

Oh really? LOL!

Not only did I have horses and lived on a commercial dairy farm, (Carnation)but I have and have had (for most of my life) wild life, deer specifically that Lyric and dogs before him were hell bent on chasing until I did some predation training, using a faux prey, a bucket, a rope, and a helper, along with beefing up his recall to be excellent in all situations. If I hadn't cured him of that, I could have gotten in some real trouble, as it's illegal to let your dogs run down deer, plus it's dangerous. Jose` chased a bear twice, which freaked me out, so his training needed to be beefed up and/or I have to be more careful not to let him outside without a leash if there's a bear around. He's hell bent too and it is hard to get a reliable recall on him that lasts a long time....constantly needs refreshing.

I've had a variety of dogs/breeeds all my life and have lived in places where there are lots of other animals most of the time.

So sure, if that's your only choice, (you can't lock up your dog, you can't train your dog) it's better that they aren't killed. But I'm not convinced there's a lot of information imparted to a dog by slugging him in the jaw other than "my owner is scary and I don't trust him/her." Unless it's superbly timed, within a few seconds of the unwanted behavior, adequately intense, and happens every single time the offense takes place, it is not likely to be very reliable.

If you lived along side a freeway, would you slug your dog in the jaw every time he stepped off the property? (better that than get run over) Or would you use a leash or put up a reliable fence?

This is completely not the point of the OP, so how it got to this derailment, I don't understand. The OP doesn't go for the way her mother treats her dogs and I don't blame her. I don't like that kind of rough, disrespectful treatment (verbal or physical) toward dogs. They don't understand it. It's not their language.

There's a huge difference between a dog WANTING to chase (or herd) and being hell-bent on it. If you can stop it with what you've described, the dog isn't all that determined. Frankly, Dobermans are relatively easy. They are highly bred to want to please their owners and do as their owners direct.

You don't "slug" the dog Think of it in terms of slapping someone who is hysterical. You get their attention. Then you can reason with them.

Putting up a reliable fence is lovely, but when you live in an area of small farms, 60 - 100 acres, it's not terribly practical. And sometimes you have to teach the neighbor's dog not to chase stock.

Kharma's always been one of those hell-bent herders. The solution with her was to explain to her that she was only supposed to worry about HER cows. Once we had that discussion I could always tell if any cattle out roaming were Charley's or not by her reaction. If she went nuts, they were Charley's; if she didn't care, they were someone else's.

It didn't take hitting her -- that would just break a few bones in my hand, most likely, but it did take grabbing her -- hard -- on each side of the head and giving her a good shake and getting in her face, snarling at her to get her to turn her attention to ME. Then we had our talk. And no, a shock collar wouldn't be likely to make any difference to her; she's the one who attacked the cattle fence for biting her when she was 3 months old.

But we use different means. You condition; I prefer working with dogs I can instruct. I don't have the patience for conditioning.

 

[Lizmo]

I would be hard pressed to use a shock collar, to be honest. I would really have to ask myself if it was worth it to continue training if *no* physical correction even phased the dog.

Even then, it would depend on the dog and so many unknows to even remotely answer that question now since I'm not in that situation.

 

[corgipower]

There's a huge difference between a dog WANTING to chase (or herd) and being hell-bent on it. If you can stop it with what you've described, the dog isn't all that determined. Frankly, Dobermans are relatively easy. They are highly bred to want to please their owners and do as their owners direct.

Very true.
There's also a difference between a dog chasing for fun and a dog doing what it was born and trained to do.

I would be hard pressed to use a shock collar, to be honest. I would really have to ask myself if it was worth it to continue training if *no* physical correction even phased the dog.

If you'd seen Ares on stock, and especially when he helped with rounding up the cows, you would think it was totally worth it.

Although I was amazed at how easily he called off the cattle that day, considering whenever we trained on sheep he had no call off and no stop without the help of a rake and leash.

 

[Kat09Tails]

e - collars are a tool that do require a level of knowledge to use them correctly. If you don't know how like any other tool they're ripe for abuse. I see far more abuse allowed with a flat collar or a chain than any other neck gear on the market.

 

[Dekka]

Renee, if a dog is hell bent for chasing (and trust me... I have JRTs) its easy to train them to behave when you are in reach. I was assuming it was grabbing the dog as it went by lol, or after the fact.

And if a grab was enough to fix the problem then it can't have been that bad. Having dogs who are hell bent on killing things that run, none of them (Dekka included lol) wouldn't stop from being grabbed and yelled at. Heck even smacking them wouldn't stop the chasing, just teach them to stay out of reach

And if they are being held onto and its a 'wake up call' then its relatively easy to train, just work below their threshold. I had thought we were discussing loose dogs.

 

[Paige]

What else are you supposed to treat a dog like? My dog is a dog. He lives a good life but he is not my child and will never be treated that way. He's not a piece of trash either. He's a valued member of my family... but he's still a dog.

 

[SweetAdeline]

What else are you supposed to treat a dog like? My dog is a dog. He lives a good life but he is not my child and will never be treated that way. He's not a piece of trash either. He's a valued member of my family... but he's still a dog.

Ditto one thousand times!

 

[Renee750il]

Renee, if a dog is hell bent for chasing (and trust me... I have JRTs) its easy to train them to behave when you are in reach. I was assuming it was grabbing the dog as it went by lol, or after the fact.

And if a grab was enough to fix the problem then it can't have been that bad. Having dogs who are hell bent on killing things that run, none of them (Dekka included lol) wouldn't stop from being grabbed and yelled at. Heck even smacking them wouldn't stop the chasing, just teach them to stay out of reach

And if they are being held onto and its a 'wake up call' then its relatively easy to train, just work below their threshold. I had thought we were discussing loose dogs.

Loose dogs have been pretty easy for me -- but I've generally got good backup ready to jump in . . . EAGER to jump in, lol. Or I just let my backup give the lesson. Bimmer and Kharma have always been good at it and know how to deliver the lesson with no harm done. Tallulah . . . I'd never put her in that position. Terriers are more likely to join in the mayhem -- part of their charm

We had a neighbor with a nice little JRT who thought he was big enough to chase calves. He was just fast enough -- if his nubbin was tucked -- to keep about 4 inches from Buffy's jaws :rofl1: Not that I think she really wanted to hurt him; she just seemed to think he needed to learn to leave her cows alone. And learn what fear looked like, lol. She was fine with him as long as he was tagging along behind Bimmer, hunting vermin. As long as he didn't look at her cows.

I've been dragged into a tree, hanging onto Kharma on a leash when a cow tried to run over us - literally jumped over the leash. Even I can't hold onto a determined, 150 pounds of muscle. But we had a prayer meeting, eyeball to eyeball, when she got back from putting all the cows in the barn, and trust me, she understood. It was a long time before she went after the cows again without permission, even though she'd stand there and tremble and moan, wanting to put them all into the barn.

 

[Laurelin]

I think there's two different things being discussed here- smacking/spanking as punishment and then using some sort of physical action to get your dog's attention. I see two different things.

I'll admit that i've rapped Mia on the butt a few times. She is extremely driven and impulsive and has on occasion got into the zone and about did something very stupid and dangerous. Once was when I opened the stove and Mia tried to jump in it. :yikes: I actually had to practically kick her to keep her from jumping into the hot stove. Learned my lesson there and she's not allowed in the kitchen now while I cook.

Similarly there have been a few times when she's gone after small animals (like the time she attacked Scout) and the only way to break her out of her zone is to 'smack' (I hate that word) her on the butt. It didn't seem to phase her much at all, just make her hesitate long enough and turn to focus on me long enough to pull her out of a bad situation.

If it's a matter of life and death or bad injury to the dog and I have to smack their backside to get their attention in a pinch then so be it. BUT I wouldn't use it as punishment.

 

[Paige]

The only thing that would snap Spanky out of his intense mode when he'd get into it was a good whack to the behind. I did my best to build up his threshhold but some things are out of your control.

Mind you, this dog also LIKED to be punched in the butt really hard. As long as you were smiling and happy about it. If you so much as walked into the room in a bad mood he'd roll over and wimper but he LOVED being handled roughly when it was all in fun. He used to swing his hips back and forth and I'd kick him in the haunch and he'd get so excited. What a strange dog.

 

[skittledoo]

Paige... sounds like Spanky's name really suited then if that's the case... lol

 

[Doberluv]

There's a huge difference between using hitting as a means of teaching a dog not to do something and hitting (or kicking, grabbing, shoving, yanking) as an action to prevent an immediate, imminent disaster....like a dog jumping into a heated oven. I don't know why this seems to be so hard to distinguish. Hitting a dog because he habitually runs down game or livestock is ridiculous imo. If it works so well, then why is the dog repeatedly running after animals? Grabbing, pulling his tail, hitting, kicking (if that's going to make him get out of the way) a dog because he's inches away from being kicked by a horse, if that's going to prevent injury....of course, you do what you have to do.

 

[Lizmo]

I don't know why this seems to be so hard to distinguish.

People are not in the same situations. When your dog is chasing a squirrel, it won't be the same as when mine chases livestock.

Chasing down a squirrel isn't the same as chasing down a sheep or cow. Lots of different prey drive going on.

But really, it doesn't matter. Your opinion is your opinioin and mine is mine. Please don't think, though, that those dogs that are hit are drastically changed (i.e. scared of there owner from now on or sheep or a crook or whatever) or even hurt for that matter.

Anways...I think I'm done....

 

[corgipower]

There's a huge difference between using hitting as a means of teaching a dog not to do something and hitting (or kicking, grabbing, shoving, yanking) as an action to prevent an immediate, imminent disaster....like a dog jumping into a heated oven. I don't know why this seems to be so hard to distinguish. Hitting a dog because he habitually runs down game or livestock is ridiculous imo. If it works so well, then why is the dog repeatedly running after animals?

Yes, I think we all agree that there's a difference between using hitting as a means of teaching a dog vs to prevent immediate danger. AFAIK when people here who have hit their dogs have done so, it's been in a situation where the dog was in imminent danger. Chasing a squirrel isn't likely to kill a dog. Charging into a herd of horses OTOH is not going to end well.

Who said the dog is repeatedly running after animals?

And my understanding is that the hitting of the dog isn't intended to teach them not to run after the animals, it's intended to be an interrupter. It gets their attention when nothing else can.

 

[Tahla9999]

The only thing that would snap Spanky out of his intense mode when he'd get into it was a good whack to the behind. I did my best to build up his threshhold but some things are out of your control.

Mind you, this dog also LIKED to be punched in the butt really hard. As long as you were smiling and happy about it. If you so much as walked into the room in a bad mood he'd roll over and wimper but he LOVED being handled roughly when it was all in fun. He used to swing his hips back and forth and I'd kick him in the haunch and he'd get so excited. What a strange dog.

LOL, Kai is the same way. Give him a good slap on the butt, he would start zooming all over the place with a goofy grin on his face.