Spanking in schools, why is this still allowed?

Puckstop31

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#21
i hardly think home schooling is the answer to sheltering your children from real life.


:rolleyes:

Shows how little you know about homeschooling. Some of the most well behaved, balanced and well socialized children I know are the product of a large homeschooling group. Homeschooling removes the handcuffs the public school system imposes. See, I am going to allow my children to actually fail at things from time to time. It is the MAJOR thing missing from public school. Nobody ever is 'wrong'. There are no boundaries.
 

Dekka

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#22
My son in question, the 12 year old I requested get a paddle at school??...........ya, he is OVER THE TOP smart. He needs to be in EVERY enrichment class they offer, and he always PASS+ the state achievement testing. They really don't do enough to keep him occupied. BUT, that is the way it is and he needs to understand he can't disrupt everyone else just because things are easy for him and he gets done so quickly.

Moving him up a grade is not an option because he is VERY tiny to begin with (only 5 lbs bigger than his 8 year old brother)............he needs to learn self control, and talking to him or grounding him DOES NOT WORK.
So then why can't YOU paddle him?
 

Puckstop31

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#23
We were once a respected profession. Most of us are still perfectly respectable. So please don't blame lawyers, catagorically, for this. Blame greedy, sleazy plaintiffs attorneys and tacky, greedy parents.
I understand this. I do.

Still, you must know that things are the way they are in public schools because of a fear of being sued. So sure, I AM blaming the sleazy scum bag types. If I were an attorney, I would do everthing I could to do something about those scumbags that drag you guys down in the mud.

Again, I understand that a majority of attorneys are honorable people. It is a shame that the minority gets to define you all. I have no idea what the answer might be? Better judges who throw more civil cases out on grounds of being a waste? I dunno. I am open to ideas.
 

ACooper

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#24
So then why can't YOU paddle him?
He does get swats at home (as a last resort after a warning, loss of privilege, and so on) but that does NOT dissuade him at the school. He is the type of child that needs immediate action for his behavior, and he needs to KNOW it can/will happen.

He rolls the dice that the teacher will give him one more chance, that the principal will talk with him and not call us, or that a note will not be sent home for THAT particular incident. It's how he is.

Do you know how I finally got him to behave in KINDERGARTEN? I had to print up a weekly sheet that went back and forth between the teacher and I.........under each day it had a smiley face, and a frown face, and had lines for any explanations that needed to be stated. That way he KNEW we would know about every incident from the smallest disruption to the larger ones............without fail. It wasn't perfect, but it helped A LOT.

First grade rolled around and I attempted the same thing and the teacher would not mark it or keep us informed...........it was back to phone calls and being uninformed until it was out of control once more. We ultimately pulled him from school and home schooled him (hoping to let him mature a little more) until he was ready for 3rd grade. He still has issues (most are based on boredom I know) but it has much improved. He just started Jr. High this past Tuesday and I am hoping like crazy that they have plenty of work to keep him occupied.

We have other children (I am sure you know, lol) and they are ALL different. The methods that work with each one is tailored to fit them. Spankings DO NOT WORK FOR EVERY CHILD, I have no argument there whatsoever.

To use your dog training analogy....you know there are hard dogs and soft ones......a harsh word can REALLY hurt some dogs, where as other dogs NEED those harsh tones to get it. Kids are not so different in that way.
 

a.baker

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#25
My daughter starts kindergarten in two weeks. I wonder whats going to happen when she goes potty and needs help from an adult to buckle her belt? :rolleyes: Hey what happens when she needs to go potty with the seat, do they line it with paper or have paper covers? :yikes: You should see what the bus drivers have to go through or custodians to get jobs now a days...
 

ACooper

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#27
My daughter starts kindergarten in two weeks. I wonder whats going to happen when she goes potty and needs help from an adult to buckle her belt? :rolleyes: Hey what happens when she needs to go potty with the seat, do they line it with paper or have paper covers? :yikes: You should see what the bus drivers have to go through or custodians to get jobs now a days...
My advice to you is dress her in things that SHE can do all by herself. Right down to her shoes..........if she has problems keeping them tied (or tieing them at all) buy her velcro until she gets the hang of it better.

I can speak for workers and teachers in OUR school and say that MANY will NOT help, and it's not just the fear of being accused...........they don't want to fool with it and feel over worked as it is :(

And all the kindergarten classrooms that I know of (any where I have been) has a restroom right in the class that only those kids and teachers use...........but that doesn't include paper on the toilette seats.
 

Dekka

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#28
He does get swats at home (as a last resort after a warning, loss of privilege, and so on) but that does NOT dissuade him at the school. He is the type of child that needs immediate action for his behavior, and he needs to KNOW it can/will happen.

He rolls the dice that the teacher will give him one more chance, that the principal will talk with him and not call us, or that a note will not be sent home for THAT particular incident. It's how he is.

Do you know how I finally got him to behave in KINDERGARTEN? I had to print up a weekly sheet that went back and forth between the teacher and I.........under each day it had a smiley face, and a frown face, and had lines for any explanations that needed to be stated. That way he KNEW we would know about every incident from the smallest disruption to the larger ones............without fail. It wasn't perfect, but it helped A LOT.

First grade rolled around and I attempted the same thing and the teacher would not mark it or keep us informed...........it was back to phone calls and being uninformed until it was out of control once more. We ultimately pulled him from school and home schooled him (hoping to let him mature a little more) until he was ready for 3rd grade. He still has issues (most are based on boredom I know) but it has much improved. He just started Jr. High this past Tuesday and I am hoping like crazy that they have plenty of work to keep him occupied.

We have other children (I am sure you know, lol) and they are ALL different. The methods that work with each one is tailored to fit them. Spankings DO NOT WORK FOR EVERY CHILD, I have no argument there whatsoever.

To use your dog training analogy....you know there are hard dogs and soft ones......a harsh word can REALLY hurt some dogs, where as other dogs NEED those harsh tones to get it. Kids are not so different in that way.
My child has had in every school (poor kid has been to three in 4 years) had an agenda where the teacher comments on behaviour on a daily basis (if needed/requested) So there is lots of communication between parent and teacher.

The thing is that YOU are the parent. The teacher is a trained professional. The teacher only sees your child a few hours a day in amongst 20+ other kids. The principal sees them even less. If you want to paddle your child, at least YOU know your child. I am not comfortable on any level with someone who hardly knows my child making that decision.

The issue I see with your senario, is not that the teachers don't paddle, is that they don't follow through. If there are consequences, then use them. Don't give the kid multiple chances. I can see a big difference when Darien spends time at relatives where 'no' means maybe. I am a pretty laid back parent, but NO means NO.
 

Lilavati

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#29
I understand this. I do.

Still, you must know that things are the way they are in public schools because of a fear of being sued. So sure, I AM blaming the sleazy scum bag types. If I were an attorney, I would do everthing I could to do something about those scumbags that drag you guys down in the mud.

Again, I understand that a majority of attorneys are honorable people. It is a shame that the minority gets to define you all. I have no idea what the answer might be? Better judges who throw more civil cases out on grounds of being a waste? I dunno. I am open to ideas.
Its a terribly complex issue. The problem is, that for a long time, it was very hard for people with wholly legitimate complaints to get into court, especially if they were poor, or a minority, or, god forbid, were reprisenting themselves pro se . . . so the rules to let things in where liberalized, because the courts were beign used to throw out legitimate complaints. The problem is that we've gone to far, and probably need to tighten up the rules for dismissal and summary judgement.

Another problem is that a lot of these cases are losers. Period. If they ever actually GOT to court, they'd lose. But there a large number of lawyers who make their living bringing these cases and then settling, because it is cheaper for the defendant to settle than to take it to court. We do have loser-pays provisions, but they are rarely used. Courts probably need to use them much more often.

Now, the reason we don't have loser-pays in all cases, as the UK does, is that it was also used against weaker parties. No one in their right mind would ever sue a large corporation . . . the odds are against you unless you have a smoking gun, and then you are stuck with THEIR legal costs? Which are . . . well, stupendous. Our "each party pays for themselves unless the case is frivoulous" rule makes it easier for the poor, or even normal people, to take on corporations and the rich . . . the problem is that it ALSO makes it easier for anyone with half a grudge to sue. But we need to start using that more often, as well as the ethical rules that penalize lawyers for bringing frivlous suits.

Cotingency fees are also a huge problem. With the lawyer getting a third of the judgement, or the settlement, regardless of how much work they do, theres a huge incentive to just bring cases and settle, thus never getting to court. And they do it. Often, in legitimate cases, screwing their client, who would have gotten more with a jury. And these attorneys make obscene ammounts of money. But we have contingency fees for the same reason as the above problem .. . people can't afford a lawyer to bring a complaint. I know this one from personal experience: I sued after the apartment fire, and did not go with a contingency agreement. I paid my lawyer up front. And the otherside toyed with us until we ran out of money. Unless you have a huge claim (and I mean huge, mine was $25,000, which is, in the world of claims, peanuts) it is simply not possible or even rational for most people to sue unless they have a lawyer working on contingency. I SHOULD have hired a lawyer on contingency, but didn't do so on principle. Oops.

In other words, there are a lot of factors involved, and many of them were put into place to help and protect people who would otherwise not have access to the courts, and, we know from history, were viciously exploited because of it. Rights are worthless if you can't enforce them, whether they are contract rights or civil rights.

The problem is that lots of people are abusing the system now. A minority of lawyers, but they are a prominent, and often wealthy minority. Not to mention many people in the public who think that a lawsuit is a quick way to turn a buck.

What I would do:

Tighten up the loser-pays rules

Shift the standards for motion to dismiss and summary judgement a bit towards the conservative side

THe bar associations need to get agressive about frivilous suits, as do the courts. There are sanctions. Use them.

Shut down the non-accredited law schools, and tighten the requirements for ABA schools. There are too many young lawyers with massive debts and no prospects of making an honest living. Some would call this snobbery, trying to protect those in the profession from competition, but the honest truth is too many people are suckered into going to really lousy law schools, where they have no hope of getting a decent job, because there aren't enough jobs for them, who end up with a law degree and a morgage's worth of debt, and quickly discover that they are broke, miserable, and don't like practicing law anyway. A fair number of these people end up as an embarassment to themselves and the profession.
 

Bunny82

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#30
I am probably the least violent person out there but if one of his teachers (or anyone for that matter) even considered laying a hand on my little boy....

Well how does that saying go, "There is nothing in the world more dangerous than a mama protecting her young?" It would take on a whole new meaning.

As far as homeschooling. Personally if I have my way Hunter will be home schooled.
 

bubbatd

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#31
I don't believe in paddling ( wrong move could lead to spinal injury ) My school strapped the palms of the hand . It really was humiliating to be sent to the Principals office , so a warning was basically all that was needed . Maybe we should go back to the stool in a corner and Dunce cap ! Most kids are under parent's noses only 4 to 5 hours a day today . Discipline has to come from somewhere !!! Teenage crimes are ramped here today !!
 

sparks19

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#32
NO... I don't agree with the school spanking my child.

IMO, spanking needs to be handled in a more delicate manner (well for young children... I don't know about teens and with some of the crazy teens running around with weapons I know I wouldn't risk it as a teacher)

If my child were to misbehave in school I would expect a call from the principals office IMMEDIATELY. Tell my child that I have been called and I am on my way to DEAL with him/her. Put him in a room all by himself until I get there so he has nothing to do but think about the fact that I am coming to punish him. When I get there I will administer the spanking. I will let the child think about that for a few minutes but then before I leave I will make sure that I talk to my child and let them know EXACTLY WHY that happened and if it happens again I will be back at the school to handle the situation again. then before I leave I will be sure to tell him/her that even though I punished them... I love them VERY much.

But being a SAHM I guess it's a little easier for me to just up and go to the school.

But to be honest... while most teachers are kind and fair people... I don't trust them to decide when my child gets paddled. Teachers are people and are prone to taking a dislike to one child over another... can they get over their dislike long enough to be fair? I just don't know. Then you get into kids who are already violent (not from spanking :rolleyes: that's just silly to me) Is it worth it for the teacher or principal to try to give a paddling to a child that will lash out violently? again this may work for a young small child... but when you get up into 12/13 years old... I'm not too sure.

I wasn't a perfect student by any means and sometimes my stubborn nature got the best of me. But in all my school years not ONCE was I EVER sent to the principals office. I just knew better.
 

ACooper

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#33
My child has had in every school (poor kid has been to three in 4 years) had an agenda where the teacher comments on behaviour on a daily basis (if needed/requested) So there is lots of communication between parent and teacher.

The thing is that YOU are the parent. The teacher is a trained professional. The teacher only sees your child a few hours a day in amongst 20+ other kids. The principal sees them even less. If you want to paddle your child, at least YOU know your child. I am not comfortable on any level with someone who hardly knows my child making that decision.

The issue I see with your senario, is not that the teachers don't paddle, is that they don't follow through. If there are consequences, then use them. Don't give the kid multiple chances. I can see a big difference when Darien spends time at relatives where 'no' means maybe. I am a pretty laid back parent, but NO means NO.
Our elementary school has an "agenda" folder, and in later years (JH and HS) it's a planner, but it isn't for BEHAVIOR. It's to keep us informed on what they are learning, what homework they have, etc.

I don't agree with the schools making the ultimate decision to paddle, that is why I stated over and over again that the school should CONTACT you and give you the choice to be present..........or even take your child home if you would rather that instead of a paddling.

And yes, some of the issues (not just with my son, but all the kids) are that teachers may let it slide today, but tomorrow (depending on their mood because they are human too) is a different ball game. It shouldn't be that way but it is.

There are FAR worse kids than my son..........believe me, but compared to our other kids, he is the one always in trouble, LOL.

Some of the WORST kids have parents that come in and argue over a detention (or any course of punishment) and get them out of it claiming that their child is being picked on or singled out :rolleyes:

I have been on both ends of the spectrum. My oldest was the shy quiet kid in school and had a problem with a bully. Corey (the 12 year old) is NOT that way and tends to argue back with the teachers, and even sometimes bully other kids at school even though he is smaller (I think he feels he has something to prove due to size, but that is another thread)

In BOTH cases (the child that picked on my oldest and Corey) I think they should have been dealt with swiftly and nipped in the bud by the school. My oldest son had a right to learn and be at school without the fear...........and so do the kids surrounding Corey.

Nothing will change my mind about that.

Imagine your feelings if Darian comes home upset, his grades start to slide, and you find out there is another child picking on him. The school has issued detentions, loss of recesses.........or whatever is the standard, but the bullying doesn't stop. You speak to the parents of that other child, and seem to feel that they have sincerely TRIED, but the child isn't under their control at school.

Darian has the right to learn and feel good about going to school, just like all those other children who are NOT disruptive and following the rules.
 

Dekka

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#34
first off I didn't read you "call to see if you want to be present" as meaning call and see if it is ok.

And second, I don't think I want a bully who is being told its wrong to pick on people weaker than him/her and that you shouldn't hit or hurt people to then be struck by bigger stronger than him/her. IMO that defeats the purpose. If their parents want to whack them that is their prerogative. I don't think the school should be doing it.

But here kids can get expelled for bullying.
 

sparks19

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#35
Just to look at it from another angle... when kids get a little older. What about the safety of the teachers? Some kids are very disturbed (definitely the minority but none the less) and I think it would be UNSAFE for teachers/principal to try to give a physical punishment.

and like Lilavati mentioned about her friend that was fired for breaking up a fight. Physical contact with kids only opens the door for lawsuits.... it's not unheard of for a kid to fabricate a story of "wrongful touching" because they are angry (although sometimes there really IS wrongful touching which is another reason I don't want to put my child in a position that this could happen). Unfortunately that's the reality these days :(
 

Lilavati

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#36
Also, as many posts about schools have revealed, the level of judgement exhibited by school officials these days is very low. Moveover, many schools are so big that no one knows the children as individuals. If you are a parent, do you want some ignorant, hide-bound, public employee who doesn't know your child well, if at all, making the decision to apply physical punishment to your child, as well as administer that punishment? Really? I'd rather them call me and I'LL decide how they should be punished, thank you.
 

ACooper

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#37
first off I didn't read you "call to see if you want to be present" as meaning call and see if it is ok.

And second, I don't think I want a bully who is being told its wrong to pick on people weaker than him/her and that you shouldn't hit or hurt people to then be struck by bigger stronger than him/her. IMO that defeats the purpose. If their parents want to whack them that is their prerogative. I don't think the school should be doing it.

But here kids can get expelled for bullying.
Calling to see if you want to be present, as in notifying you BEFORE any action is taken and allowing you to be there OR take your child HOME to do whatever you feel is necessary. In some cases it might be doing nothing if you don't agree with the situation...........but too many parents ignore notes home or fight any punishment that has been dished out. I've seen it repeatedly with the biggest trouble makers at the school.

If other deterrents have been tried and failed, some children DO need to be spanked by someone "bigger/stronger" than themselves..........if for no other reason than to be reminded just how it feels.

Not out of anger or frustration, not violently, no yelling, just a planned course of action/consequence when other things have failed.

I don't normally keep coming back to argue my point, and I don't like the fact that I have done it here, it's just a sore subject that hits very close to home since I have LIVED it and worked at the school as well..........I promise not to post anymore :D
 

Lilavati

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#38
Calling to see if you want to be present, as in notifying you BEFORE any action is taken and allowing you to be there OR take your child HOME to do whatever you feel is necessary. In some cases it might be doing nothing if you don't agree with the situation...........but too many parents ignore notes home or fight any punishment that has been dished out. I've seen it repeatedly with the biggest trouble makers at the school.

If other deterrents have been tried and failed, some children DO need to be spanked by someone "bigger/stronger" than themselves..........if for no other reason than to be reminded just how it feels.

Not out of anger or frustration, not violently, no yelling, just a planned course of action/consequence when other things have failed.

I don't normally keep coming back to argue my point, and I don't like the fact that I have done it here, it's just a sore subject that hits very close to home since I have LIVED it and worked at the school as well..........I promise not to post anymore :D

Theoretically, you may be right, and there are, of course, teachers and officals with the judgement to do that. My concern is that a) many parents have made the choice to raise their children without physical punishmetn, and that is their right, and b) that not all teachers and school officals demonstrate the sort of judgement that would make me want them spanking my child.
 

Dekka

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#39
Feel free to come back and argue.

What other deterrents? Have the people thought out of the box? If the child is horrible and the parents think the child is just Ducky then suspend them, or expel them.

Yes I know it is frustrating. LOL one of the girls that I went to school with got suspened for a few days. Her parents didn't care so she went skiing. At the ski hill she won a promotion and got a brand new Jeep Cherokee!!!! Bet the teachers were very frustrated at that.

BUT I do know personally (as in to someone I knew) where excessive and IMO inappropriate school punishment cost that person their life.

This sort of thing might have worked back in the day. Back when my parents went to school kids didn't move as much, parents and teachers often knew each other. And thus teachers KNEW their pupils and their parents. There were less of them to know etc etc.
 

sparks19

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#40
My father always said that getting the strap at school was NOTHING compared to the punishment he would face from his English mother when he got home and she found out he had been misbehaving lol.
 

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