So ummm... Hank the cow dog

[SpaceMutt]

The protocol I found was not one I'm following to the letter. I believed it called for no leashed walks, just yard play - well, I don't have a yard. And no training, just fun stuff. I'm doing training with her anyway, albeit in very short doses, because it's not stressful in the least for her, she's eager to do it, and it's helping us bond. No complicated shaping or anything like that, just impulse control type stuff, crate games, etc. So I think even doing a modified shutdown helps.

I know what you mean about the puppy wondering though. I try not to think about it too much but this probably would've been an easier transition with a pup. Astro is away from her and he's still stressed out, I can tell. He's very subtle about it but it's there.

And I was talking with someone I know from a training program around here about how tough it is to want to be 100% committed to a new dog, but you can't if you have another animal first necessarily. Whenever I check on Astro's mouth I know that if she does it again, as much as I'm growing to like her and love working with her, I won't let her stay. Even sending back a foster feels terrible but the existing animals take priority and it is just so so hard to see where the line is.

Hank is still so new and so wound up, there's so much that can be done with him that I'm not saying to give up...I just know how guilty I've been feeling in a similar situation and wanted to ease that for you if you've got a little too. This stuff is hard. I do think on a gut level that it will work out for you guys, you have wanted a dog like this a long time and you have the inherent love for that type of personality.

I would try the shutdown and go from there. Give everybody a chance to breathe and reboot. You can work on Mia's screaming then too without worry.

 

[Laurelin]

In a lot of ways he is much more my kind of dog than any other dog I've had. He is a very good, neat dog.

I do realize it's been very soon. He is very overwhelmed. I was only in the shelter all of 10-15 minutes and I felt like I was going crazy. I can't even describe the amount of noise in there and how many dogs were in there. My brain felt like it was going to explode. That room is full of tons of shrieking, howling, barking dogs and poor Hank was balled up in a corner getting beat up by the other dog in his tiny concrete kennel. I can't even imagine spending weeks living in that room.

I've been reading the shut down and on one hand it makes a lot of sense. The versions I'm reading are all for bully breeds though and my brain keeps stuttering butbutbut cattle dog? I think it is sort of counter-intuitive because I know how much energy he has and I feel bad crating that much. Do you think it is bad to go take him to an empty place he can run? Or should I just exercise in the yard? My yard is not that big. He can fetch but can't really open up and run.

so far we haven't done much training, just play and working some impulse control games. I think tethering is the way to go with him. I was trying to keep them separate via baby gates and he is like a gazelle. Even stacking two, he's jumping and climbing them.

If I am honest so far he likes the crate. He likes his bed and will even put himself in the crate. This morning he slept all night from 9 to 5 am then was up for about 30 mins of play with me and put HIMSELF away in bed after that.

I do hope it works. I really do because I like him a lot. He is just about everything I've ever wanted in a dog. But Mia is my baby and Summer is such a dear that I don't like that I stressed them out. So far I feel like I've been calm with them. I have not had any moments of panic yet but it is stressful a bit.

I can't imagine Crossbone being bad.

 

[stardogs]

I wouldn't see anything wrong with running in a secure empty field myself - the key is that it's not a dog park or other high arousal/stress inducing setting with lots going on. I'd probably also be rewarding check ins during that time to avoid the behavior chain of 'go off leash, ignore handler' that I see happen so frequently.

My fosters and new additions that are not baby puppies follow the basics of the shut down protocol, but I adjust as needed, always starting super regimented and gradually loosening as needed.

I've introduced fosters to resident dogs on the first day here, for example, but only after several key rules are met: social with me first, social AND appropriate one on one with each dog, then social and appropriate with pairs, and finally social and appropriate with all 4 for short periods. All resources are picked up and put away for these interactions as well. Dogs often drag a line in the house for several days as well.

 

[Beanie]

Back when Pepper moved in, two weeks was the time period I was going to give her. At the end of two weeks I was unsure about what to do. She had made some progress in those two weeks but there were still things about her that I didn't like. She literally made me exhausted mentally. (Puppy Payton OTOH made me exhausted physically, but every day was - is - fun.) My mom is the one who talked me into giving her more time to see if we could work it out.

It can definitely take time, but I also understand putting your current dogs first. I think there's nothing wrong with setting a deadline of sorts and then re-evaluating at that point. I told myself two weeks and for those two weeks I really tried not to think very hard about the stay-or-go question. Those two weeks were for working with the dogs and doing what I could to make her learn how to be comfortable here, and only once the two weeks were up did I ask myself what I should do. It actually took the stress out of it a bit because I just told myself no decisions until that deadline came up, so I was really free to just focus all my stress on actually working with her LOL.

 

[Elrohwen]

He sounds so so much like my friend's ACDx who is buddies with Watson. I remember that he was a tough adjustment (especially for people looking for a laid back family dog, not an agility prospect), but after a while things smoothed out. He's just such a cool dog, though his reactivity is a challenge and they don't want to take him to classes because of it. I'm temped to steal him and take him to agility classes myself, because he would be awesome. The guardy stuff is unnerving at first, but now that we're used to it it doesn't bother anyone as much (even Watson), and we put a stop to it if we feel like it's out of line (like guarding people, instead of just toys).

I love the intelligence and quick learning, and the responsiveness even when running around like a nut - both things my dog lacks! Once his owners complained that Grey would bring the ball near them, but not let them have it. I had him delivering the toy to my hand within 5min, just by holding out my hand for the ball, and taking it away and ignoring him if he tried to get me to reach for it. I was amazed at how quickly he figured out that if he wanted to play ball, he had to put it in my hand and drop it - I've been working with Watson for months and he still doesn't understand that concept. It is just so easy to communicate to him what you want, and he's so responsive.

Good luck with him! I hope he and Mia can come to some sort of truce. I imagine it's extremely stressful, but he sounds like a good smart boy who will figure things out.

 

[Laurelin]

I feel bad because I think I did give too much freedom too soon but the initial introductions went GREAT.

It is hard because I want to do everything with him because he's so fun and capable of doing it all. Gotta reign myself back a bit.

I didn't know if the car ride to get to the field would be ok or not... He does seem a bit stressed about the car. Since he's stressing about the car, I may just do yard work with him.

I haven't really been thinking that I need to decide right now but it has sat in the back of my mind a little. He's just very different from my past dogs. And that's not a bad thing at all in most ways. I just want to be able to do right by this kind of dog. It is helping that I know I don't HAVE to keep him. If I don't, there's another home lined up that I think he'd do great in. It is relieving some of the pressure of everything but at the same time I want to give it my best shot.

2 weeks seems like a good time to re-eval things.

 

[Laurelin]

I love the intelligence and quick learning, and the responsiveness even when running around like a nut - both things my dog lacks! Once his owners complained that Grey would bring the ball near them, but not let them have it. I had him delivering the toy to my hand within 5min, just by holding out my hand for the ball, and taking it away and ignoring him if he tried to get me to reach for it. I was amazed at how quickly he figured out that if he wanted to play ball, he had to put it in my hand and drop it - I've been working with Watson for months and he still doesn't understand that concept. It is just so easy to communicate to him what you want, and he's so responsive.

Hank is very much like that and it's uncanny in a way. He learned sit and leave it in just a minute or two with no effort on my part. He also learned to drop the ball or toy when I say drop. One or two repetitions and he's got it. And there is no working on him needing motivation. He's all about everything.

Flip side I am finding out is that if he don't want to do it, he's not gonna.

 

[stardogs]

If yard play seems like it's not doing as much, remember that dogs don't have to eat out of a bowl - break out the treat dispensing toys, scatter food in the grass, etc. to get him working mentally. (obviously this is a Hank-only activity right now to avoid conflict)

 

[Elrohwen]

Hank is very much like that and it's uncanny in a way. He learned sit and leave it in just a minute or two with no effort on my part. He also learned to drop the ball or toy when I say drop. One or two repetitions and he's got it. And there is no working on him needing motivation. He's all about everything.

Flip side I am finding out is that if he don't want to do it, he's not gonna.

Well, if Watson doesn't want to do something he's not doing it either. Darn dog is the most stubborn I've ever met. So stubbornness does not necessarily go hand in hand with amazing intelligence :lol-sign:

They also taught him to completely stop mouthing by putting him in timeout in an empty bedroom about 3 times. Then they just had to say "want to go in the bedroom by yourself?" and he would stop (even when we went on vacation, where had never been in timeout, he generalized that phrase and stopped nipping). I've tried the timeout thing with Watson and he just has no idea why he's going in timeout or what it's supposed to accomplish. It's so different.

Also, if it makes you feel better, because of Grey's personality it took 2 hours before we could even let them interact (before that they were on leash away from each other) and it took a lot of supervision to have them in the same house together. But now they are awesome together and really enjoy each other, despite having opposite personalities.

ETA: And if two people with almost zero dog experience and no desire to focus on training or dog sports can enjoy living with a dog like this, I'm sure you will be fantastic with him (as long as Mia agrees to it)

 

[Laurelin]

If yard play seems like it's not doing as much, remember that dogs don't have to eat out of a bowl - break out the treat dispensing toys, scatter food in the grass, etc. to get him working mentally. (obviously this is a Hank-only activity right now to avoid conflict)

This weekend I am going to buy some Hank sized toys like that. I am pretty sure he will smash up Mia's food toys. Though that said, he hasn't been destructive at all yet. He like to grab everything he can get but doesn't really destroy them. It's amusing to me because the terrier mix, Ada, was all about destroying the living daylights out of all toys.

He has a lot of both physical and mental energy. Mia is more of a mental energy kind of girl. Hank is just energy and intensity in every way.

How much should I feed him? Speaking of? I mean... he's roughly Trey sized but he has to be burning calories a lot more. Right now he's getting around a cup and a half. He is pooping a TON though. I am wondering if that is just the Alpo leaving his system or if he really does burn through food that fast....

It is good to hear that Watson and Grey can coexist now. I have hope we'll get there one day.

 

[Shai]

I agree wholeheartedly with a lot of what's being said above. My oldest dog is a control freak, my second is a reformed resource guarder who wishes fervently that he were an only dog. Both have very strong opinions aboit the way things ought to be. All my dogs (plus temporary Cookie) are high to very high drive, more than one would be possessive of me given even half a chance. And Mira was just reintroduced as an adult after months away, long after the other dogs had assumed (some of them without a shred of remorse) that she was never coming back.

I pretty much assume that the first two weeks are going to be awful no matter the evidence to the contrary. It keeps me from making assumptions I might later regret and gets us off on a good start. New dogs are either tethered or crated virtually all the time in the house except for specific circumstances, only lower value toys are out, and I do no stimulating training or games in the house at all...it's all pre-mack, pressure release, passive low key type work and maintaining criteria. Food is dolled out predictably with no opportunity for any dog to put pressure on another at meal times, even visually. Lots of calm praise, and just quietly spending time with each dog. Anyone who gets jacked up and won't take it down a couple notches gets calmly placed by themselves until they chill, then released.

Outside we do a lot of walks together, and separate outings even just in the yard for superfun wild games. Burn off energy and frustration, have a party, then go inside and be calm so they see the distinction and learn to respect it.

You don't have to stay in boot camp mode forever. Thankfully, because it's annoying. But it gives you a best-chance baseline from which you can assess fairly objectively whether there is hope for the dog in your house, and to which you can progressively add freedoms until you reach a level you and your dogs can both handle and enjoy.

That probably sounds a lot more rigid than it is. The main thing is just to stay calm and relaxed and maintain criteria for acceptable behavior.

Just my two cents anyway!

 

[Laurelin]

Here's a couple crappy cell phone photos:

At least he fits perfectly in my spare crate. :lol-sign:

 

[Kootenay]

He's so cute!!!!

 

[DJEtzel]

He's very cute! I read along what I could, skimmed some stuff.

I'm missing what problems he's having?

For food, 1.5cups sounds like way too much. Recon only gets 1.75 cups a day and he's over twice the size with the same energy. I would probably start a dog that size off at 3/4 cup and maybe move to 1 depending on weight change.

I'm sad that he has somewhere else to go if he doesn't work out... lol. I got approved to adopt a similar ACD mix (15lbs) in Ohio a few weeks ago, but couldn't make the trip down there for an eval before he was adopted. WHY CAN'T DOGS LIKE THIS END UP AROUND HERE?

 

[Moth]

He is adorable <3

Sorry you are feeling upset about stressing your girls...but I think you are right they would have been stressed no matter what type of dog you brought into the household.

He sounds like an incredibly fun dog for you! I will keep my fingers crossed that everything works out for the four of you!

 

[Laurelin]

Thank you so much for all the advice! It is so so helpful hearing from people with experience with this kind of dog. There is a definite learning curve.

There is absolutely nothing wrong with this boy at all. He's just cattle dog ish and my paps are sticks in the mud and sensitive. Overall he is fantastic. Drivey and sweet. Wanting to learn. Not destructive. He's just a ton of energy and drive and boisterous and herdy and guardy.

Hank is on a tether now and it is helping a ton. I am letting the paps be loose during down time because they won't go near him. It is either tether or crate or outside by himself. So far the paps are relaxing a lot and I can step in when Hank starts giving them a hard eyed stare. He is redirecting very easily when on the tether an dare I say the house is actually relaxed? We also banished toys and wildness to outside. Even training for now. I want to reinforce that indoors Is quiet time and outside we can be crazy. And when he wants to be crazy I am the one to go to vs biting a papillon. He does bite in play and affection too. He's just bitey all over.

He has discovered my sweet gum tree and spent all my lunch break tossing a gum ball over his head and chasing it around the yard. It was cracking me up.

I am feeling good about this right now.

We get cattle dogs all the time. Dime a dozen on petfinder and Craigslist. And a large number of AcD type dogs are small though Hank is teeny. 20-25 lbs though is not uncommon. That's why I started looking at ACDs as well as BCs and Aussies. After pits and labs and Chis they may be the most common breed on rescues and Craigslist. Though I really think there's a lot of rattie in Hank too. He seems like a good 50/50 to me.

 

[DJEtzel]

We get cattle dogs all the time. Dime a dozen on petfinder and Craigslist. And a large number of AcD type dogs are small though Hank is teeny. 20-25 lbs though is not uncommon. That's why I started looking at ACDs as well as BCs and Aussies. After pits and labs and Chis they may be the most common breed on rescues and Craigslist. Though I really think there's a lot of rattie in Hank too. He seems like a good 50/50 to me.

Please package them all up and ship them to Kalamazoo.

I don't know if it's been recommended yet, but LAT! I do look at that with almost all of my dogs/puppies and fosters when they're tethered inside to get them used to things moving (and cats when I had them!) and other dogs playing/doing stuff without feeling the need to jump up and chase. It works like a charm, and is a lifesaver. Almost literally sometimes.

 

[Laurelin]

He is pooping so much! Like 4 or more times a day. Normal looking and full big poops. He is at a good weight but maybe I'm over feeding? And it is just going right through him? Mia and Summer only poop 1-2 times a day.

 

[DJEtzel]

It is probably due to overfeeding, lol.

 

[Laurelin]

I need to go find that calories per pound thread.