Should moderators be able to delete their own threads IF...
- Thread starter ~Jessie~
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I agree with you, Laur 
There have been times when I've denied requests to delete threads because the OPs didn't like the turns their threads took.
And there have been times I have deleted.
There have also been times when I or another mod have bounced off whether or not to delete with the other mods before making the call.
Not having anything more concrete than I have now, it appears to be an action taken in haste and poorly considered, but I'll withhold any final opinions until I've got -- if not the whole story -- then at least most of it, just like I would with anyone here.
It wouldn't be the first time a long time member has acted intemperately, or has had to live down past acts of immaturity or insecurity, and it won't be the last, and I've always believed in giving people an extra chance when they accept responsibility and grow.
I've watched quite a number of you grow and become self-aware and responsible and develop the courage to own your mistakes and be wiser for it.
There have been times when I've denied requests to delete threads because the OPs didn't like the turns their threads took.And there have been times I have deleted.
There have also been times when I or another mod have bounced off whether or not to delete with the other mods before making the call.
Not having anything more concrete than I have now, it appears to be an action taken in haste and poorly considered, but I'll withhold any final opinions until I've got -- if not the whole story -- then at least most of it, just like I would with anyone here.
It wouldn't be the first time a long time member has acted intemperately, or has had to live down past acts of immaturity or insecurity, and it won't be the last, and I've always believed in giving people an extra chance when they accept responsibility and grow.
I've watched quite a number of you grow and become self-aware and responsible and develop the courage to own your mistakes and be wiser for it.
Oh sparks, I should have made it clearer on the "courtesy" I was speaking of Of course you (or another member) wouldn't be in this same exact boat of editing or deleting things because of the time limit, and I'm sure Foxy will answer for that in due time.
I meant if you were caught up in a mess, stories floating around, things which appeared to have taken place, etc etc.......I for one would want to know who, what, when, how, and why from YOU before I got carried away. For no other reason than I feel I *know you* as much as you can know somebody you've never met. I know you have a good heart (as I believe of Foxy) and would want to attempt in every possible way to understand your side of things.
That is all I meant about courtesy.
There are good reasons Mods need the ability to delete and edit things from times gone by. We have done those things for others in stalking situations, and many other cases I don't need to list, situations where "cleaning the closet" could help or at the very least, not make things worse for them in real life.
Also, there are MANY times where someone comes on here frantic to get their dog back because it's missing or something, posts all their personal information (phone and address) and either realizes it was foolish and ASKS us to take it off, or we notice it and do it on our own. That post could have been made at midnight and none of us were on to get to it at that moment, but we do it ASAP.
Yes, the privilege/power *appears* to have been abused in this instance. It really isn't feasible to remove that power due to the reasons I've listed above though, and to my knowledge, you can't separate that power and exclude the ability to alter your own........we are on the honor system and THAT is what Foxy needs to enlighten us about.
Of course you (or another member) wouldn't be in this same exact boat of editing or deleting things because of the time limit, and I'm sure Foxy will answer for that in due time.I meant if you were caught up in a mess, stories floating around, things which appeared to have taken place, etc etc.......I for one would want to know who, what, when, how, and why from YOU before I got carried away. For no other reason than I feel I *know you* as much as you can know somebody you've never met. I know you have a good heart (as I believe of Foxy) and would want to attempt in every possible way to understand your side of things.
That is all I meant about courtesy.
There are good reasons Mods need the ability to delete and edit things from times gone by. We have done those things for others in stalking situations, and many other cases I don't need to list, situations where "cleaning the closet" could help or at the very least, not make things worse for them in real life.
Also, there are MANY times where someone comes on here frantic to get their dog back because it's missing or something, posts all their personal information (phone and address) and either realizes it was foolish and ASKS us to take it off, or we notice it and do it on our own. That post could have been made at midnight and none of us were on to get to it at that moment, but we do it ASAP.
Yes, the privilege/power *appears* to have been abused in this instance. It really isn't feasible to remove that power due to the reasons I've listed above though, and to my knowledge, you can't separate that power and exclude the ability to alter your own........we are on the honor system and THAT is what Foxy needs to enlighten us about.
I know mods need to be able to go back and edit posts and delete things. I definitely understand that and I wasn't suggesting that that be something you guys no longer have the ability to do of course.
It's the USE of that ability to serve yourself. to go back and change things you said so that people won't see the differences. A thread deletion is something I think most are in agreement about... it should be a last resort ... like you mentioned if someone shared all their personal info or were in some sort of danger. Again this is used for other members generally and only in the most extreme cases. there was nothing in this case that warranted that thread be deleted and definitely NOT by the person who created it just because they didn't like the way it was going.
I get that you are on the honor system... and if that has been breached then I think action needs to be taken.
yes you should hear directly from Foxy... but I can say that in that thread she said she went back and changed it to reflect the "new story" and said that if we didn't go back to just squeeing about puppies she was going to delete it. so IMO that's some sort of admission that she didn't have honorable things in mind when it came to deleting and editing. it wasn't to help anyone it was to hide and unfortunately that has really breached the trust of many members. Unless she has a really good story it's going to be tough to go on as mod when you have lost the trust of so many members.
I am referring just to the deleting thread and editing and such not the actual puppies.
A lot of people I know do not post things on here because they are afraid of lash back. It's a shame because there is so much good information they could glean if they could have. I have made mistakes in the past and spent the rest of my life trying to make up for them, or at least attempt to do right from then on to the best of my ability. It's all a person can do. It's all anyone can do.
THis can be a forgiving place to. I hope that continues.
THis can be a forgiving place to. I hope that continues.
I haven't read the re-opened thread yet (I'm headed over there when I'm done here).
The issue I have is not about lying, it's about deleting an active thread just because it's not going well. Lock it. Simple enough. There's a time limit on deleting our own thread for a reason, and I think mods shouldn't be exempt.
I also have a problem with trying to cover up lies that somehow got out. If you want to lie, fine. I really don't care as long as it's not hurting anyone else. If you decide later to tell the truth, fine, but don't go back and try to make it out that you've told the truth all along. People lie. People change. That's okay. Don't try to hide it, just face it full on and as gracefully as possible.
I also have a problem with this:
That is NOT OKAY. A disability is not an excuse. Technically, my disability is "mental" (though I think neurological is a better description), and it is things like this that make people not respect us, and even be afraid of us. Using a disability as an excuse for lying is terrible. Some of us work hard on advocacy and acceptance, and things like this just ruin it all.
The issue I have is not about lying, it's about deleting an active thread just because it's not going well. Lock it. Simple enough. There's a time limit on deleting our own thread for a reason, and I think mods shouldn't be exempt.
I also have a problem with trying to cover up lies that somehow got out. If you want to lie, fine. I really don't care as long as it's not hurting anyone else. If you decide later to tell the truth, fine, but don't go back and try to make it out that you've told the truth all along. People lie. People change. That's okay. Don't try to hide it, just face it full on and as gracefully as possible.
I also have a problem with this:
That is NOT OKAY. A disability is not an excuse. Technically, my disability is "mental" (though I think neurological is a better description), and it is things like this that make people not respect us, and even be afraid of us. Using a disability as an excuse for lying is terrible. Some of us work hard on advocacy and acceptance, and things like this just ruin it all.
People love their dogs and don't like other people looking down on their dogs because of bloodlines or any of that stuff. I can understand people wanting to lie to avoid hearing "what a terrible way to get your dog" or "what a crappy breeder." or "your dog is going to be messed up." Thats all stuff they are subjected to on this forum. I don't condone the lie but I understand it. Also please understand that our mods do not support the abuse of our powers to cover something up. I personally am not a big fan of dragging a good person through the mud for a judgement error that hurt no one.
This statement has been on my mind. I'll try to explain my thoughts, so bear with me please. Hopefully it will come out like I want it too...
Many have mentioned that she was afriad of not being excepted here because she didn't get her dog (or dogs? I'm still confused on the whole matter) from a reputable breeder.
I'm suprised so many think this way. Have we lead people to believe they are somehow lower than us with dogs from reputable breeders? Do we (as a forum) come off that way? If people really believe this, I'm not happy to be a part of that. No one should feel bad or of lesser value if there dog comes from a BYB or Puppymill. If you purchase a dog from one of these places (even multiple times), just learn about those places and don't go back (I don't want to call going to a PM or BYB a mistake, because owning a dog isn't a mistake. Ever.). No one will look down on you for seeing how supporting a BYB or Puppymill is bad. No one will look down on you for learning here at Chaz. No one will look down on you because you didn't know before you purchased a BYB or PM dog.
I didn't know anything about BYBs/PMs/Pet Stores/etc before coming here. I didn't know what good dog food was before coming here. I didn't know much about positive training before coming here. I didn't know what a reputable breeder was before coming here.
But, I'm here now. I've learned about those things and will continue to learn about those things for the rest of my life. We shouldn't judge because they didn't know any better.
I hope that came out right.
Many have mentioned that she was afriad of not being excepted here because she didn't get her dog (or dogs? I'm still confused on the whole matter) from a reputable breeder.
I'm suprised so many think this way. Have we lead people to believe they are somehow lower than us with dogs from reputable breeders? Do we (as a forum) come off that way? If people really believe this, I'm not happy to be a part of that. No one should feel bad or of lesser value if there dog comes from a BYB or Puppymill. If you purchase a dog from one of these places (even multiple times), just learn about those places and don't go back (I don't want to call going to a PM or BYB a mistake, because owning a dog isn't a mistake. Ever.). No one will look down on you for seeing how supporting a BYB or Puppymill is bad. No one will look down on you for learning here at Chaz. No one will look down on you because you didn't know before you purchased a BYB or PM dog.
I didn't know anything about BYBs/PMs/Pet Stores/etc before coming here. I didn't know what good dog food was before coming here. I didn't know much about positive training before coming here. I didn't know what a reputable breeder was before coming here.
But, I'm here now. I've learned about those things and will continue to learn about those things for the rest of my life. We shouldn't judge because they didn't know any better.
I hope that came out right.
If that's the remark that spawned the assumption of blaming a disability, that's a long stretch.
It doesn't appear that she's attempted to cover it up and make anyone believe she never said it.
The problem is with MISUSING mod *powers* and that's something the staff has to untangle.
There will, however, be no public hangings, floggings, or burnings at the stake.
It doesn't appear that she's attempted to cover it up and make anyone believe she never said it.
The problem is with MISUSING mod *powers* and that's something the staff has to untangle.
There will, however, be no public hangings, floggings, or burnings at the stake.
After reading through the thread (thanks for putting it back), I have to agree. She never says herself that it's from a disability, rather she blames a personality trait. So let me revise...it's not okay for others to blame something someone does on their disability when that's not the case at all.
After reading the thread, it actually appears to me Foxy was scared and unsure when she first started here. She made mistakes. Whatever. I'd be happy to see everything cleared up. BUT that still doesn't make deleting the thread okay. Locking would have been fine, deleting, NO.
After reading the thread, it actually appears to me Foxy was scared and unsure when she first started here. She made mistakes. Whatever. I'd be happy to see everything cleared up. BUT that still doesn't make deleting the thread okay. Locking would have been fine, deleting, NO.
Honestly, I think those are some really good questions... Maybe we all need to reflect on that for a minute. I can not speak for others, but I can say that I refer people to Chaz very often. And more often than not I get a "no thanks" or "I'll just lurk" after reading several threads. I asked one for my friends "Why?" ... she told me it was "too intense" for her. I left it at that, I figured maybe we're too active or something ... but who knows?
This is not the first time someone has been afraid to post something in fear of being judged. There's been a couple times that I thought about posting something, but then decided against it. . . but nothing like this
This is not the first time someone has been afraid to post something in fear of being judged. There's been a couple times that I thought about posting something, but then decided against it. . . but nothing like this
Excellent Liz
I didn't know anything about good nutrition or BYB or PM, (though I did have bad feelings about pet store pups just from what I witnessed of their condition and care) before being on the internet.
I do my level best to NEVER look down on anyone who didn't know things and made mistakes. I feel it's different if you know better and still do it though.
Even chaz members have different opinions on what makes a BYB, or what makes an ethical breeder. For some, the breeder's path would need to pass through the eye of a needle to be worthy, and they'd most likely still find fault. For others, the path is much more broad.
I make no secret that titles and ribbons don't mean much to me, health is my number one concern. But I have also lived longer, have confidence in my thoughts and opinions (even if they turn out to be wrong) and don't always look to others for approval.
Some people are not that secure for whatever reasons, and don't want to let anyone down or feel judged.
I didn't know anything about good nutrition or BYB or PM, (though I did have bad feelings about pet store pups just from what I witnessed of their condition and care) before being on the internet.
I do my level best to NEVER look down on anyone who didn't know things and made mistakes. I feel it's different if you know better and still do it though.
Even chaz members have different opinions on what makes a BYB, or what makes an ethical breeder. For some, the breeder's path would need to pass through the eye of a needle to be worthy, and they'd most likely still find fault. For others, the path is much more broad.
I make no secret that titles and ribbons don't mean much to me, health is my number one concern. But I have also lived longer, have confidence in my thoughts and opinions (even if they turn out to be wrong
) and don't always look to others for approval. Some people are not that secure for whatever reasons, and don't want to let anyone down or feel judged.
It's one thing to not know any better and do something, than TO know better AND to give advice about something you went against.
Foxy has been a member on this forum for how long? Five years? Well, she was a member on a chihuahua forum for even longer than that, and Ruby is how old? Three? She bought/rescued/fostered/whatever her after being a forum member. She would preach neutering/buying from health testing show breeders on here, even. Then she bought Jasper around the time I brought Tucker home... a little over a year ago... so she DEFINITELY knew about good breeders/yadda yadda at this time.
It's one thing if she came on this forum with her dogs from BYB's already, then they accidentally bred, and THEN came on here to seek out information. She's not a new or unknowedable member.
I mean, she does have a bachelor's in animal sciences, zoology, along with multiple dog training certificates, handling experience. raptor nursing, zoo keeping, pet store managing, chihuahua breeding, trained to work with blind/deaf dogs, doggy day care working experience
Foxy has been a member on this forum for how long? Five years? Well, she was a member on a chihuahua forum for even longer than that, and Ruby is how old? Three? She bought/rescued/fostered/whatever her after being a forum member. She would preach neutering/buying from health testing show breeders on here, even. Then she bought Jasper around the time I brought Tucker home... a little over a year ago... so she DEFINITELY knew about good breeders/yadda yadda at this time.
It's one thing if she came on this forum with her dogs from BYB's already, then they accidentally bred, and THEN came on here to seek out information. She's not a new or unknowedable member.
I mean, she does have a bachelor's in animal sciences, zoology, along with multiple dog training certificates, handling experience. raptor nursing, zoo keeping, pet store managing, chihuahua breeding, trained to work with blind/deaf dogs, doggy day care working experience
Hmm I have mixed feelings on all this. First I don't see if she was insecure why the stories were in the order they were. It doesn't make sense. It also doesn't make sense denying the existence of Gypsy for example. It isn't logical even if you were bending the truth from fear of backlash.
I'm not sure what's going on to be honest. I'm not sure the specifics really matter.
I will say this, I will not post some things on here that I would on other forums. I never posted Mia's breeder for example but I have told people who asked privately. I have seen too many decent breeders get completely crucified to do that comfortably even though I am very comfortable with my decision. I do think on occasion we are too harsh and I do think it's a shame people are afraid to say what they really think or do.
I don't know that this is the case here though, and I am trying to say this with utmost respect.
I'm not sure what's going on to be honest. I'm not sure the specifics really matter.
I will say this, I will not post some things on here that I would on other forums. I never posted Mia's breeder for example but I have told people who asked privately. I have seen too many decent breeders get completely crucified to do that comfortably even though I am very comfortable with my decision. I do think on occasion we are too harsh and I do think it's a shame people are afraid to say what they really think or do.
I don't know that this is the case here though, and I am trying to say this with utmost respect.
WHat I was talking about was with the back lash thing, is people having an oops litter, or losing their dog, or missing something they felt they should have caught. Hopefully this will all come clean from all this horrid washing. What has been said has been said, re said, and said again on top of that. I do hope Foxy comes back. WE will all lose something special if she does not or at least that is how i feel about her.
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Jen, you tell it sister.
I think this forum can often be quite intense, to the point where people feel the need to lie or lurk because they are afraid of members pulling out pitchforks
Again, I have had similiar experiences with friends.
Foxy, you have provided this site with a lot of valuable information and have helped out a lot of people. Although a number of members are upset with you, I think this site absolutely has the ability to forgive. Please consider coming back, coming clean, and starting fresh. I know I have certainly made a lot of mistakes, so you aren't alone. I feel confident that if you came back, told the truth, and apologized, you could see the really great side of this forum - caring people who have the ability to forgive and move on.
I think this forum can often be quite intense, to the point where people feel the need to lie or lurk because they are afraid of members pulling out pitchforks
Honestly, I think those are some really good questions... Maybe we all need to reflect on that for a minute. I can not speak for others, but I can say that I refer people to Chaz very often. And more often than not I get a "no thanks" or "I'll just lurk" after reading several threads. I asked one for my friends "Why?" ... she told me it was "too intense" for her. I left it at that, I figured maybe we're too active or something ... but who knows?
This is not the first time someone has been afraid to post something in fear of being judged. There's been a couple times that I thought about posting something, but then decided against it. . . but nothing like this
This is not the first time someone has been afraid to post something in fear of being judged. There's been a couple times that I thought about posting something, but then decided against it. . . but nothing like this
Foxy, you have provided this site with a lot of valuable information and have helped out a lot of people. Although a number of members are upset with you, I think this site absolutely has the ability to forgive. Please consider coming back, coming clean, and starting fresh. I know I have certainly made a lot of mistakes, so you aren't alone. I feel confident that if you came back, told the truth, and apologized, you could see the really great side of this forum - caring people who have the ability to forgive and move on.
I completely agree.
It doesn't make any logical sense. Why would you say your dog came from a high kill shelter, and then completely make up a second one?
Why would you say your dog has a heart condition? Why would you lie about her being spayed, and then lie again and say that she couldn't be spayed because of her health?
Thing is, most of us know that going to a responsible breeder is cheaper in the long run... considering the not so good toy breeders charge wayyyy more than a show/hobby breeder. Foxy has even posted a list of "backyard breeder excuses" so she knew better!
It's so elaborate. I don't know... it's more than a "you misread what I wrote" kind of thing.
I've given the names of the breeders I bought my dogs from privately in PM's from people looking for chihuahuas, or people I trust. I agree that a good bit of good breeders are treated pretty harsh without being deserving of it.
It doesn't make any logical sense. Why would you say your dog came from a high kill shelter, and then completely make up a second one?
Why would you say your dog has a heart condition? Why would you lie about her being spayed, and then lie again and say that she couldn't be spayed because of her health?
Thing is, most of us know that going to a responsible breeder is cheaper in the long run... considering the not so good toy breeders charge wayyyy more than a show/hobby breeder. Foxy has even posted a list of "backyard breeder excuses" so she knew better!
It's so elaborate. I don't know... it's more than a "you misread what I wrote" kind of thing.
I've given the names of the breeders I bought my dogs from privately in PM's from people looking for chihuahuas, or people I trust. I agree that a good bit of good breeders are treated pretty harsh without being deserving of it.
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