saturday was awesome!

[dr2little]

I feel sick just reading this. There is no way in he!! that ANYONE should hit a dog in the name of training. I'm absolutely shocked that you would allow someone to treat your dog that way. Why even have a dog????

I really couldn't read much of this thread, after you allowed this so called 'trainer' to abuse your dog....I'd read enough

Aggression work should NEVER include physical punishment. Your dog is not cured...maybe broken, maybe the behaviors are surpressed but he's certainly not cured..

 

[Boemy]

I think corrections have a place in training, if used properly and if needed, but this guy sounds waaaaay over the edge. He sounds outright abusive. You're going to make your dog afraid of you. Your dog isn't going to just "fear your corrections". How is what you're doing different from what some abusive guy does when he hits his dog with a stick? His dog fears HIM as well as the stick. You have better intentions than that guy, but the actions are the same and your dog's reaction is going to be the same.

Dogs CAN enjoy obedience training without any kind of correction. In fact, it is natural to them. They're descended from social animals who naturally cooperate and "follow the leader". (Imagine a wolf pack where, instead of teaming up on a single elk, the wolves scatter and each try to chase down their own elk. That would be pretty useless, wouldn't it?) Try training a cat and you will soon see the difference . . .

 

[Purdue#1]

Yeah and the Leader physically corrects them too when they are doing something they don't like with their own teeth.

 

[Dekka]

Hmm really..since when? You really need to watch dog behaviour. Teeth are hardly ever used, and almost never by the alpha dog, the lower ranking dogs are more likely to cause injury to other lower ranking dogs....so if you wish to act like a middle/lower ranking dog, force might work. And personally I think using force to train a dog lowers us. We are superior due to our brains. If you need to use force you are lowering yourself to the 'primitive' level. I prefer to raise the dog, and use my brain. Perhaps the trainer prefers to use brawn over brains, I prefer to use my head.

Oh and I brought this up this thread at the dinner table tonite. Before I could say how I felt about it, my 6 year old son was upset. "You shouldn't hit dogs, thats mean. She should train her dog, not hit him" Out of the mouths of babes....

 

[Purdue#1]

That you think they're happy and undamaged is meaningless. You are not in a position to make that assessment. You do not know dog behavior well enough.

I may not know every single thing about dog behavior, but i know my dogs, and i could tell if sly was "damaged", and he's not. Don't sit there and say i can't tell if my dogs are toatally freaked out or not all the time. Sly still is himself. He romps and rolls in the yard with mickey and I and she is on his heels trying to get the bone out of his mouth. He heads straight for the car door when we let them out of their pen because he wants to go for a ride in the car. He's no longer aggressive with other dogs that's changed, but as far as who he is hasn't one bit.

And i don't tuck my tail and run. I stand and never backdown.

 

[Dekka]

LOL Purdue...You don't get it do you? We said it might not happen overnight. It make take a week, a month, a few months, but eventually your dog will quit forgiving you, and start fearing you.

 

[tessa_s212]

LOL Purdue...You don't get it do you? We said it might not happen overnight. It make take a week, a month, a few months, but eventually your dog will quit forgiving you, and start fearing you.

Take it from a person that did ruin her dogs through correctional training. Heck, I didn't even abuse them with sticks! All I used to do was correct too much and too harshly, never mind abusing a dog wtih a stick.

It might not be right now. But if you continue with these methods, your dog will not trust you. He will fear you, whether you will admit it right now or not.

Many of these people might have more experience training dogs than you've been alive. I wouldn't be as cocky and confident that you are so right about dog behavior and training. My advice to you is to humble yourself, and start reading. You have a lot to learn.

 

[BlackPuppy]

If you think Ivan has never used an ecollar or prong collar you would be very much mistaken. Very mistaken. Yes, he uses marker training very well, and you'll also notice that almost all the dogs in his video are wearing prong collars as well, and he knows how and when to correct.

My dogs wear prong collars, too. Doesn't mean I abuse my dog.

Have you been to an Ivan Seminar? I have. 25 dogs with obedience problems attended, including mine. All problems were solved, even the crazy Czech police dog. Not once was a correction necessary, not even the crazy Czeck police dog. I have his video and am using it on my puppy. She's so motivated you can hear her thump on the floor when she downs.

 

[whatszmatter]

Yes, and what happens in a seminar and in training, are two different things. I"m not going to get into another debate where everyone knows everything.

I took your post to mean that he doesn't correct his dogs, its all motivational, and that's not true. Ivan is a world class competitor, no doubt, very talented as well. He's won 2 of the biggest international comps already this year and could win a 3rd.

and yes dogs that have been on prong collars and e-collars can still make a thump when they down, among other things.

and just because I made a comment on Ivan, I don't want others to confuse it with me sticking up for what this other guy is doing. I'm not.

 

[mantine]

One day, when you're dog is old and gray, ready to leave this world, (which won't be too long from now) he'll look into your eyes one last time, searching for a connection, but there won't be any. And you'll look into his eyes, looking for love and approval for yourself and all you'll see will be empty, hollow holes that were never filled with understanding and love. You might, (if you possess any conscious at all) look back on what you did and be tortured with sadness and guilt for the rest of your days. And the angels will weep for you.

Oh my gosh Doberluv, that about made me cry when I read it. Thinking about that moment like that ( - I will alway be good to Grizzley!

 

[Purdue#1]

A subdominant wolf can be identified in the pack through its body language as well. Subdominant wolves will lower its body, tuck its tail, and pull its ears back when confronting a wolf of higher standing. At the bottom of the hierarchy is the omega wolf. This wolf can be either male or female. This wolf is used as an outlet for aggression for the rest of the wolves, especially the alpha. The alpha wolf will decide if and when other wolves are allowed to eat. The omega wolf usually goes last and must pick over what everyone else has taken. The omega also initiates play.

http://cas.bellarmine.edu/tietjen/PPT/Ecology/observations_of_behavior_on_the_.htm

 

[Herschel]

http://cas.bellarmine.edu/tietjen/PPT/Ecology/observations_of_behavior_on_the_.htm

So you're taking your aggression out on your dog because you see him as an incredibly low member of your family, and it makes you feel like the alpha male? Seriously? Is that the point you're trying to make?

I guess that agrees pretty well with everything that we've said. This type of training only serves to boost ego and make the trainer feel more in control. In actuality, the opposite is true, and the trainer is lowering himself below the level of the animal and using barbaric techniques.

(By the way, dogs aren't wolves)

 

[tessa_s212]

I guess that agrees pretty well with everything that we've said. This type of training only serves to boost ego and make the trainer feel more in control. In actuality, the opposite is true, and the trainer is lowering himself below the level of the animal and using barbaric techniques.

(By the way, dogs aren't wolves)

:hail: :hail: :hail: :hail:

 

[mantine]

Are you a wolf purdue?

 

[Purdue#1]

i responding to dekka's post.

Hmm really..since when? You really need to watch dog behaviour. Teeth are hardly ever used, and almost never by the alpha dog, the lower ranking dogs are more likely to cause injury to other lower ranking dogs....so if you wish to act like a middle/lower ranking dog, force might work. And personally I think using force to train a dog lowers us. We are superior due to our brains. If you need to use force you are lowering yourself to the 'primitive' level. I prefer to raise the dog, and use my brain. Perhaps the trainer prefers to use brawn over brains, I prefer to use my head.

Oh and I brought this up this thread at the dinner table tonite. Before I could say how I felt about it, my 6 year old son was upset. "You shouldn't hit dogs, thats mean. She should train her dog, not hit him" Out of the mouths of babes....

Yeah koehler's methods don't work when twice as many people loved his book and methods as hated them:

http://www.amazon.com/Koehler-Method-Dog-Training/dp/0876055773/ref=pd_sim_b_1/104-7927953-3643926?ie=UTF8&qid=1185220822&sr=1-4

 

[Beanie]

Exactly what bearing does Amazon reviews of a book have on the effectiveness of training techniques?

 

[otch1]

Holy cow... Purdue, I understand there's no changing your mind about training methods. I got that feeling from the first page of this thread. If telling you that they do not have the credentials they claim to, they do not and could not compete with most trainers in the industry, their dogs couldn't hold their own in a competition agility or obedience ring, hence none of them being titled or even registered, their methods being considered "old school", abusive and unnecessary by some of the best in the industry... if none of that matters to you when hiring a trainer, you'll definitely end up learning the hard way. Again, it's considered the lazy mans way of training. They simply don't know any better. I won't comment on prongs, chains, food reward, no food used, clicker, no clicker. I'm talking about some of the more serious issues in programs like this. For some clients who've come from schools like these, I've seen first hand the results of this when it backfires. I hope you never find yourself there in your learning process.

 

[tessa_s212]

I hope you never find yourself there in your learning process.

And more importantly, I hope her dog isn't terribly damaged in the process. However, sometimes that's what it takes to get a person to finally learn and see, if they ever actually do.

 

[Lizmo]

I feel sick just reading this. There is no way in he!! that ANYONE should hit a dog in the name of training. I'm absolutely shocked that you would allow someone to treat your dog that way. Why even have a dog????

I really couldn't read much of this thread, after you allowed this so called 'trainer' to abuse your dog....I'd read enough

Aggression work should NEVER include physical punishment. Your dog is not cured...maybe broken, maybe the behaviors are surpressed but he's certainly not cured..

Holy crap!! ^^^ Ditto

 

[Whisper]

This type of "training" royally pisses me off. I feel sorry for your dog. How would you like it if someone you trusted with your life hit you with sticks and made you fear them to gain control to get you to behave, instead of earning your respect and teaching you with compassion and having you want to learn? I'm sure you'd love it, and love the person even more, right?