saturday was awesome!

[tessa_s212]

I hate that I can't stop reading this thread.



I'm going to go ahead and type up a bit of a long story that will probably be ignored ( ), but which I think is pertinant to the discussion. A couple of weeks ago, I got a call about housesitting. The owner insisted I come over and meet the dogs before I committed, since they were high drive, competitive Shutzhund GSDs. My first thought was "I'm gonna turn and run when she hands me a choke chain attached to an aggressive dog". But, I needed the money, so I figured I'd go see.

The dogs were stunning. They were clearly pretty intense, but were not at all aggressive and were walked on flat collars. The owner told me to use treats if I wanted.

After we visited with the dogs and chatted for a while, I confessed that I'd been worried she was going to be an old-school, "German" trainer. It turns out her oldest male had actually been trained in Germany originally. She had been interested in him when he was young and showing promise, but he was far too expensive. A year or two later, his trainers called him "trash" because he was so shut down he wouldn't work, or even look at anybody anymore. This woman bought him cheap, brought him home and "fed him steak and hot dogs" for two years. When she brought him back to competition, she qualified him for Worlds.

I loved that story; I love knowing there are people out there who know you can do ANY kind of work with dogs by using positive methods. I love that her dogs were happy, comfortable, and pleasant in the house. If I ever own a dog with that type of drive, I would have no problems going to her for assistance.

You don't have to hit your dog to make them obey. I can call my prey-driven hunting breed off of rabbit and squirrel. All it would take is one little smack and a minute of yelling, and I would put her 'stays' against any other dogs; she can shut down and cower like a star. I sincerely doubt she would ever work for me again, but she wouldn't move. However, I'd rather she be the bold, happy, confident dog that she has shown me she is capable of being. If it means I stick her in a crate to contain her rather than putting her in a down stay, so be it. I like knowing that same willing dog is going to be there when I come back, rather than a shell of a dog.

What a wonderful story.

 

[otch1]

Purdue, you obviously really like these people and while I'm sure they're very nice and do have "obedient" dogs, I just want to stress that you're new to this, so gaining as much info about training and trainers is important. Don't take every trainers word as fact. You owe it to yourself and your dog to do your homework. I may be mistaken but are all of Richlings' dogs or the 6 mo. old pups he's selling registered with a nationally recognized registry? Are any of his dogs actually titled in nationally recognized competitions (AKC, UKC, CKC, FCI), in tracking, agility or obedience? Are any of his trainers certified through any nationally recognized organization, or are they just going through his school being certified by him? Where is their training facility to train in during the winter or do they make their clients stand out in a field regardless of conditions? Was Richling actually a k-9 officer with the police dept., verses a security company? Some of their info on site was unclear and titles/accomplishments were missing. When you claim you are "the best" and are teaching the only "true method" of dog training, despising other trainers methods, one really should be able to put in print why they're the best, with the credentials to prove it. While certain credits aren't nessacary to train, I would expect that these people have them with the claims they've made.

 

[tessa_s212]

And certainly as important as it is for them to have those credentials and be able to prove it, it is also important to possess some humility. To be a good trainer, one must do away with their ego and possess not only good dog skills, but people skills. Exactly why I feel this bears repeating:

Learn to train without ego

And unfortunately, this man hasn't.

 

[Purdue#1]

he's a former chief of a canine unit that patroled high crime subway systems. and he was also a police K-9 officer. He is now contracted with people to patrol areas of louisville, Ky and other places. The only dog martin richling has is Zadok. His brother owns liberty K-9s and has all the pups for sale and breeds the dogs. I know they don't show and i think none of their dogs are registered.

We train in all kinds of weather. that's what he means by training in the real world. We don't train in an inside ring.

If you didn't see this its on the left side of the homepage. I didn't see it until later:

http://richlingk9.com/book/buy-now.shtml

 

[otch1]

I don't think Purdue has been fully exposed to their egos yet Tessa, as he's new to them. They're ego's are obviously enormous, to put it nicely. The reason I asked Purdue to always inquire about credentials before handing his dog over to someone is because, as I understand it... Martin Richling makes the claim when promoting his book that quote; "the vast majority of dog trainers are the most lying, thieving, inhumane trainers a dog could be exposed to." Martin states that he's reached "master trainer" level. With whom? The FCI, the police dept? Also, in order to become a member of Richling trainings program, you need to become a member of Liberty K-9s' his brother Tonys' training school. Unless there've been recent changes, Tony is actually a maintenance mechanic at a food company, not a trainer running a school for a living. He trains part time and I was unable to find his accomplishments/Schutzhund titles. My apologies if my information is outdated, but I felt it was relevant here. Good luck, which ever direction you go in your training process Purdue.

 

[Purdue#1]

He has people skills. trust me.

 

[Dekka]

Cool does that mean I can put that I train in the real world to on my website? We will train in all weather (except lightning..cause standing on the top of a hill in a lightning storm is just stupid) with the competing dogs...

Just another observation. Even if you said this training is req for patrolling city streets (and there are people who have trained animals for the military, very real life, and no punishments) its the equivalent of boot camp. Now do you think every person should go through boot camp? And as for relationship, do you think you would LOVE to live with the people who train you at boot camp? I have been told by people who have been through military training, you aren't supposed to like it. Many end up hating the men who train them. BUt yes they are trained to a high degree, but not for any normal civilized fashion.

edited to add, what does people skill have to do with ego. I know many people with HUGE egos (the horse world is a strange place) who have great people skills.

 

[tessa_s212]

He has people skills. trust me.

Oh yes, I believe you. He is very skilled at brainwashing people into believing his hype.

 

[otch1]

Hi Purdue. Posting at same time you were. I'm slow! ha. You've answered some of my questions. Thank you. I was already pretty certain of some of the issues I mentioned. Them not having reg. dogs, not really being from the "best lines", not actually titling them. Not showing, not even in Schutzhund comp though? (Pretty unheard of for most of the instructors I know) Was aware of them not actually having a school, issues about not training full time for a living as they're certainly not getting families with children standing out in the pouring down rain teaching the family pup sit and down stays. Again, before they make some of the claims they have about being the best and make such derogatory statements about other trainers, they really should have proof of what they claim. Most trainers don't have to put things like that on their website, most don't have to justify their methods by being disrespectful to others. Not very professional. I'm sorry this has turned so negative when you were so excited about finding them. I'm just going to again, say good luck, and leave it at that.

 

[whatszmatter]

I see the man he got his training from as well, but I don't have anything nice to say about that.

BTW, I've seen people use BB guns and paintball guns, whos says +P trainers aren't "creative"? That was sarcasm btw. I think those are pretty rediculous as well.

I'd have to say after looking at his site, I do like the agility course, but not much else. It is hard on a dog, its supposed to be, but it serves a purpose to what we do. Problem solving skills for the dog, learning to work thru stress, learning to work with their handler, and building confidence. I'd probably drop the stick though, I wouldn't need it.

 

[tessa_s212]

otch is right. I truly hope you don't jsut stop at one trainer and believe everything he says. There's so much more to learn.

Have you searched for and visited any other training places in the area? www.apdt.com might list other local trainers in your area.

 

[Purdue#1]

i did search other trainers. He's the only one that emailed me back.

 

[Charliesmommy]

Purdue - I haven't read this whole thread, I've only skimmed it, but I do want to contribute something here. I took my dog to a trainer very much like the one you have described. He is a former K9 officer and trains dogs for police, military and rescue work. I did a little research but admittedly, only into his results and not his methods. I was VERY impressed with his dogs and how well trained they were. They would do a down-stay for the entire class with 20 dogs running around them and they never took their eyes off the trainer. This guy is on the board of the local humane society and is a very well known trainer in my city.

The second class I went to, I told the trainer I was concerned about Charlie's biting (just puppy biting, not aggressive) and he instructed me what to do. What he demonstrated was to take Charlie's slip collar and yank it to cut off his air supply and said "if he can't breathe, he won't bite". As soon as he let go, Charlie started coughing and then vomited.

The following day I did some further reseach on this trainer and found that he has lawsuit after lawsuit against him, mostly for vet bills for dogs that he has "trained" and injured. I then discussed all this with my vet, who told me she has treated several dogs trained by this man for injuries to their necks and legs.

Needless to say, I did not go back to the class. So.....whatever training you decide to proceed with, just be aware that, even though the results may be fabulous, you should be very careful what you let happen to your dog.

Goodluck.

 

[tessa_s212]

In that case, I suggest you ditch this trainer and do like I had to do: learn on your own.

I have started a thread asking for good books. Take a look at it, find what books interest you, and start learning! I'm going to put up a long list of books I've already found that I plan to read, and hope even more people suggest good, educational bokos.

 

[Purdue#1]

Purdue - I haven't read this whole thread, I've only skimmed it, but I do want to contribute something here. I took my dog to a trainer very much like the one you have described. He is a former K9 officer and trains dogs for police, military and rescue work. I did a little research but admittedly, only into his results and not his methods. I was VERY impressed with his dogs and how well trained they were. They would do a down-stay for the entire class with 20 dogs running around them and they never took their eyes off the trainer. This guy is on the board of the local humane society and is a very well known trainer in my city.

The second class I went to, I told the trainer I was concerned about Charlie's biting (just puppy biting, not aggressive) and he instructed me what to do. What he demonstrated was to take Charlie's slip collar and yank it to cut off his air supply and said "if he can't breathe, he won't bite". As soon as he let go, Charlie started coughing and then vomited.

The following day I did some further reseach on this trainer and found that he has lawsuit after lawsuit against him, mostly for vet bills for dogs that he has "trained" and injured. I then discussed all this with my vet, who told me she has treated several dogs trained by this man for injuries to their necks and legs.

Needless to say, I did not go back to the class. So.....whatever training you decide to proceed with, just be aware that, even though the results may be fabulous, you should be very careful what you let happen to your dog.

Goodluck.

What area of indiana do you live in if you can tell me? What was his name?

 

[Charliesmommy]

I PM'd you.

 

[Beanie]

Martin states that he's reached "master trainer" level.

I just have to say that this sound like a Pokemon level or something. MASTER TRAINER. CAPTURED ALL 150 POKEMANS.

Everything else intelligent to say has been said in this thread already. I just wanted to interject some really lame humor. =>

 

[Doberluv]

If you're so impressed with police dog training and think they have to be beaten with a stick, think again. Regardless of how push button these dogs become that this nut job is intimidating, how can that be worth what is being done to these dogs? Get a machine. What on earth could be so important to do with your dog that it is worth this abuse? That you think they're happy and undamaged is meaningless. You are not in a position to make that assessment. You do not know dog behavior well enough.

cross posted from another place where some other ignorant and uninformed yo yo with a closed mind thought that positive reinforcement fell short with police dog training:

Actually, scent detection *is* being trained with operant conditioning and clickers. Steve White was a trainer for one the largest police K-9 units in Washington State, accredited as a Master Trainer in '93 the Washington State Police Canine Association, Steve is also a past Executive Board Member of that body. He's been an instructor for the K9 Academy for Law Enforcement. Steve has instructed at seminars in the U.S., Canada, Mexico, and The United Kingdom. He is currently a primary instructor at Karen Pryor's ClickerExpo. He has taught obedience classes at parks, community centers, and kennels. His articles have appeared in police K-9 and dog training publications in the U.S. and Canada. He specializes in teaching behavior modification, tracking, and scent work through the use of positive reinforcement based operant conditioning. He provides consultation and training to K-9 units on administrative and legal issues, and has been recognized as an expert witness by Washington courts in police K-9 and dog behavior matters.

Do check out the CAAPDT seminar in Calgary, Canada this year. He will be speaking as will Ray Coppinger, so you can get a dose of ideas about pack theory and operant conditioning all at the same time. I hear that if he shows his video on suspect apprehension it will leave you breathless.

Shall I go on?


The Texas Task Force 1 of FEMA uses clicker training. A "clicker" trainer in Keller, TX who procures dogs for DPS (state police), Customs and some private explosive and narcotic detection companies imprints dogs for explosive and narcatic work with great success. Some of the above mentioned use clickers and some don't, but they all use use positive reinforcement to train.

Some people might say I'm too direct or too hard on people, that I'm not using positive reinforcement as I do on dogs, but people understand human culture and human language. People should be able to relate to basic humane morality. A lot of people are going to be cautious to not hurt your feelings, to skirt around issues in order to try and educate you without causing you to tuck tail and run. But I'm not. I'm direct and I'm going to tell you how I feel. The purpose is not to squash you so far that you sink, but to give you a wake up call because you NEED one. You can argue till the cows come home, but you are not in a position to argue with the people who know behavior or are experienced trainers and dog people here. Some people will coddle you if you're young. But if you're old enough to be on a dog forum and are able to understand English, can read and have any morals, you're old enough to take this in.

You have a lot to learn about dog behavior. What you're doing is a travesty. What you're allowing this sick individual who calls himself a dog trainer to do to your dog is a crime against life and living beings. Beating a dog with a stick, causing pain and fear (and by God it does!) and making him do some of these ridiculous tasks, such as not moving for three hours is so horrible, so cruel and atrocious to do to an innocent and helpless animal.

One day, when you're dog is old and gray, ready to leave this world, (which won't be too long from now) he'll look into your eyes one last time, searching for a connection, but there won't be any. And you'll look into his eyes, looking for love and approval for yourself and all you'll see will be empty, hollow holes that were never filled with understanding and love. You might, (if you possess any conscious at all) look back on what you did and be tortured with sadness and guilt for the rest of your days. And the angels will weep for you.

Get a grip on yourself. Stop rejecting compassion for animals and falling for this brain washing this guy has dealt you. If you can love a dog, then how can you hit him with a stick and make him do all those horrible things? If you do not feel love for your dog, find him a new home. You have no business owning a dog. So what if his dogs can do amazing things because they're afraid to do otherwise! So what if a dog can work under pressure because he's been to hell and back? It's not worth it no matter what we exploit dogs for. Why would anyone care if a dog can not move for 3 hours? There's something wrong with....something missing from someone who is impressed and made glad with that. It's not natural for a living breathing being to be forced to act like an inanimate object. It's CRUEL! You CAN have a well trained dog without this stern, harsh, abusive treatment. YES IT IS ABUSIVE!!!! And no, there is NO difference between fearing you or fearing the corrections. The two go together. Dogs learn by association, which ought to be obvious to even the most novice dog owners. You see it every day thousands of times. For you to make statements like you did about fearing corrections being different than fearing you is WRONG! If you want your dog to even fear corrections....to fear at all, something is wrong and you shouldn't have a dog at all. Get a robot. Or find another way to train your dog. THERE ARE OTHER WAYS!!! If you want help with those other ways, just ask for it.

 

[BlackPuppy]

Hmm, Ivan Balabanov uses all motivational training (with little food) to train his top ranking dogs. No leash jerking, no forced positions, the word "no" is used quietly and only as an informational communication. Wouldn't you rather have a that kind of relationship with your dog?

Obedience without Conflict
News flash 2005 AWDF IPO 3 Championship
top 4 obedience scores
by dogs trained or coached by Ivan
achieved high Obedience with 99 points, 98 points , 97 points and 96 points !!!
http://www.malinois.com/otvitosha/video.htm

Accomplishments:
http://www.malinois.com/otvitosha/accomplishment.htm
in Obedience
1993 USA Nationals second in obedience
High Obedience 1994 USA Nationals
High Obedience 1995 northwest regionals
High Obedience 1997 North American
High Obedience 1999 DVG Nationals
High Obedience 2000 AWDF Championship
High Obedience 2000 FCI/IPO World Championship (all breed)
High Obedience 2001 AWDF Championship
High Obedience 2001 USA North Americans
High Obedience 2002 World Championship for Belgian Shepherds
High Obedience 2003 American Working Malinois Association
High Obedience 2003 USA Nationals
High Obedience 2005 AWDF Championship
High Obedience 2005 AWMA Championship
High Obedience 2006 AWDF Championship
High Obedience 2007 AWDF Championship
High Obedience 2007 FMBB Championship

Just worth looking into.

 

[whatszmatter]

If you think Ivan has never used an ecollar or prong collar you would be very much mistaken. Very mistaken. Yes, he uses marker training very well, and you'll also notice that almost all the dogs in his video are wearing prong collars as well, and he knows how and when to correct.